HDMI 2.1 chips in AVRs and AV processors - transition to 40/48 Gbps, issues with video and graphics features

[TechEnthu]

HDMI 2.1 chips in 2020, 2021, 2022 models of AVRs and AV processors
Reliability of chips, updates, bugs, video signal, gaming features, port speed and issues surrounding the roll out of HDMI 2.1 specification in AV machines

HDMI board upgrade - free and paid	Eligible current models
1. Yamaha - Register for free board change - 24 Gbps	V4A, V6A, A2A, TSR-700 - free
2. Sound United: buy upgrade for Denon AVR-X8500H 3. Sound United: buy upgrade for Marantz AV8805	AVR-X8500H - $599 AV8805 - $599; no stock Q1 2022
4. Steinway-Lyngdorf AVPs - optional paid upgrade	MP-60 2.1, S&S P300 2.1 - €1,999
5. Anthem - optional paid upgrade for AVRs/AVPs	MRX 540/740/1140, AVM 70/90
6. Arcam - optional paid upgrade - Q1 2022	AVR 10/20/30, AV40 - $650, £650
7. JBL - optional paid upgrade - Q1 2022	SDR-35, SDP-55 - $650, ~£650
8. StormAudio - board still in development?	MK1, MK2, ISP Elite MK3
9. Monolith - AVP paid board upgrade in 2022?	HTP-1
10. McIntosh - AVP paid board upgrade (1-in-2-out) ?	MX135
11. AudioControl Maestro and Concert lines - unclear?	Maestro X7, X9, XR- 4/6/8
12. Trinnov Altitude AVP - H2 2022?	Altitude 16, Altitude 32 - €1,000

*Note: New production line of some models above ship with upgraded boards installed in factory and changed model number. Check with local dealer, online or call technical support.

2020 - FIRST GEN HDMI 2.1 CHIPS FOR AVRs - not a great start... Faulty HDMI 2.1 chips Solution SU - adapter box Solution Yamaha - board swap ~ Problems Panasonic Solutions offered two versions of chips (~14 min). Sound United chose faster 40 Gbps chip with single input, to pass through 4K/120Hz 10-bit RGB video images from sources onto displays. Yamaha chose slower, but multiple input 24 Gbps chip which can pass through 4K/120Hz 10-bit 4-2-0 uncompressed signal. Both chips were not tested properly with sources before AVRs came into the market and owners faced multiple problems with video signal, e.g. black screens, and features working incorrectly. ~ Solutions Sound United offered an adapter box which solved the issue with Xbox Series X. Reliability of audio signal through AVR when used with Nvidia GPUs is still a concern. Yamaha's HDMI 2.1 inputs never worked and the company offered free board replacement scheduled for Q4 2021. Owners of Yamaha 2020 AVRs finally start to witness new HDMI boards working reliably. Those new boards will be limited to 24 Gbps on HDMI 2.1 ports and enabling firmware 1.48 arrived. Please see the chronology of events and solutions for owners of 2020 AVRs in the resources below. 1. AVR Denon and Marantz: 1-in-2-out 40 Gbps ports + adapter box Denon models affected: A110, X2700H, X3700H, X4700H, X6700H, S960H Marantz models affected: AV7706, NR1711, SR5015, SR6015, SR7015, SR8015 issue: black screen on displays when Xbox Series X connected to Denon at 4K120 issue: instability of gaming images when Nvidia/AMD GPUs connected to AVRs issue: broken VRR on AVRs; doesn't work well with 4K120Hz 10-bit RGB (40 Gbps) non-issue: PS5 works fine with AVRs, which are able to pass 32 Gbps from it solution: hardware change necessary due to a bug in the silicon (aka faulty chip) Sound United worked on solution for Xbox Series X and released HDMI adapter box Marantz owners are required to register here to receive a free adapter box Denon owners are required to register here to receive a free adapter box adapter boxes arrive to owners; users report that 4K120 10-bit RGB works (40 Gbps) new production units (70001 up) to host 2nd gen chips that do not need adapter box Roland Krüger (SU) hinted 'expansion hardware for multi 4K120 ports' - box 2.0 in Q4 New stock of HDMI adapter boxes delayed ~6 months, until Q1 2022 Multi-input adapter boxes Denon AVS-3 and Marantz VS3003 coming soon 2. AVR Yamaha lower tier models: multi-input ports 24 Gbps - free board swap Yamaha stated in 2020 that new AVRs would receive HDMI 2.1 via 'future update' owners do not have HDMI 2.1 features operational in their 2020 AVRs until Q4 2021 May 2021: free board change announced for V4A, V6A, A2A and TSR-700 in Q4 multi 24 Gbps input ports on replaced boards: V4A (four), V6A (three), A2A (three) current owners must register their AVRs for free board exchange (offer lasts 2 years) units from new production line with new boards installed in factory (yellow dot hint!) 24 Gbps ports maximum video signal (without DSC) is 4K/120Hz 10/12-bit 4-2-0 for 4k/120Hz 10-bit RGB, DSC must be used; most 4K TVs do not support DSC August 2021: Yamaha finally confirms HDMI 2.1 on 2020 models capped to 24 Gbps Owners of Yamaha 2020 models start to receive free replacement HDMI boards December: Firmware 1.48 delivers 24 Gbps signal - 4K/120 10-bit 4:2:0, not VRR

2021/2022 - SECOND GEN HDMI 2.1 CHIPS - 24 and 40 Gbps Analog Devices 7672 (ex-Invecas) and others offered improved silicon. Those chips and ports should support more reliably all modern gaming and graphics features, such as FRL, UHD, HDR, HFR, VRR, ALLM, QFT and QMS. More importantly, new AVRs/AVPs should be able to deliver those features working together neatly. Switching on settings 4K+120Hz+10-bit+HDR+RGB+VRR should create high quality, immersive gaming experience with smooth, sharp and bright video signal flow. The same applies to 8K+60Hz+10-bit+HDR+4.2.0+VRR, however we need more capable GPUs in Q4 2022. The models of AVRs and AVPs from different companies are below, including estimated release dates, necessary firmware, configuration of HDMI port speeds and other features. 1. AVR Onkyo, Pioneer, Integra: multi 40 Gbps + 24 Gbps ports - ship Q4 2021 most models host 3-in-2-out 40 Gbps and 3-in 24 Gbps, apart from TX-NR5100 Onkyo models: TX-RZ50, TX-NR7100, TX-NR6100, TX-NR5100 (24 Gbps only) Integra models: DRX-5.4, DRX-3.4 and DRX-2.4 Pioneer models: VSX-LX505, VSX-LX305, VSX-LX105 and VSX-935 new AVRs implement DIRAC system; Dirac Bass Control not confirmed as yet HDMI 2.1 features work out of the box - Teoh tested Onkyo's pre-production unit Integra AVR details Dolby Vision 4K120Hz + VRR works on Onkyo TX-RZ50 - prerelease unit 2. AVR Yamaha Aventage higher tier models A4A, A6A, A8A: ship Q4 2021 Yamaha delayed the models to swap boards with faulty chips with second gen chips 40 Gbps ports will not work out of the box; firmware update is necessary 2021 models spec - A4A, A6A and A8A 5 year warranty, early reservation, firmware promise offered to early adopters up to 10 years warranty enticing offer on RX-A8A in Australia early reviewers won't know whether HDMI 2.1 works reliably until firmware kicks in new firmware should make 4K+120Hz+10-bit+HDR+RGB+VRR finally work together "future update" is for HDMI pass-through on stand-by; unclear timeline? 7-in-3-out 40 Gbps ports on all three new AVRs Audioholics in-depth review of Yamaha RX A6A, without HDMI 2.1 working April 26th 4K/120 firmware update 1.65 is rolled out for 40 Gbps signals. VRR yet to arrive. Video signal in Zones seems HDMI 2.0 - just 18 Gbps, so no 4K/120 10-bit. 3. AVR Sound United: board upgrade for flagships and three new budget AVRs current owners offered new board with one single HDMI 2.1 input 40 Gbps ($599) factory upgrade will gradually replace existing units with this new boards new production line units with fitted boards will be named X8500HA and AV8805A Denon releases budget AVRs S760H, S660H, X1700H with three 40 Gbps inputs 4. AVR Arcam (Harman) 10/20/30 and AVP AV40: 7-in-3-out; upgrade Q1 2022 Arcam eligible models: AVR10, AVR20, AVR30 and AV40 Arcam offers HDMI 2.1 upgrade boards to owners at $650 and ~£650 AVR5 and AVR10 have 7-in-2-out layout, AVR20, AVR30 and AV40 have 7-in-3-out new production line model numbers with fitted board: AVR-11, AVR-21, AVR-31, AV-41 5. AVP JBL Synthesis SDR-35 and SDP-55: 7-in-3-out; upgrade Q1 2022 JBL eligible models: SDR-35 and SDP-55 (feature Dirac and Dante 1Gbps AV over IP) JBL offers HDMI 2.1 upgrade boards to owners at $650 US and ~£650 New SKU JBL Synthesis AVR SDR-38 and AVP SDP-58 with factory installed board 6. AVR AudioControl Concert and AVP Maestro: all ports 40 Gbps? upgrade Q2? apparently, AudioControl confirmed to end users HDMI 2.1 board upgrade plan new production line of Maestro model numbers with fitted board: X7S and X9S new production line of Concert models with fitted board: XR-4S, XR-6S and XR-8S 7. AVR and AVP Anthem: all ports 40 Gbps; mostly 7-in-3-out, upgrade Q1 2022? Anthem to offer optional HDMI 2.1 board upgrade on new AVRs and AV processors Eligible AVR models: MRX540 (7-in-2-out), MRX740 and MRX1140 (7-in-3-out) Eligible AVP models: AVM70 and AVM90 (7-in-3-out) 8. AVP Steinway P100, P300 & Lyngdorf MP-40, MP-60: 5-in-2-out, all 40 Gbps Steinway & Sons AVP P300 2.1 Lyngdorf AVP MP-60 2.1 Analog Devices chips 40 Gbps in all models and paid upgrade for €1,999 some owners already have new HDMI 2.1 board - reports that features work 9. AVP Trinnov Altitude 16 and 32: testing 40 Gbps chips; release? Trinnov engineer Jon Herron: new chips perform better than older ones from 2020 unclear: how much better? Will combination of AV features work together reliably? Trinnov reluctant to release upgrade boards on second gen chips; third gen lucky? Cypress Technologies design Trinnov Altitude boards 10. AVP StormAudio MK1, MK2, MK3: - testing 40 Gbps chips; upgrade Q2 2022? Cypress Technologies design StormAudio's boards StormAudio HDMI 2.1 board in development AVP StormAudio ISP Elite MK3 11. AVP Monolith HTP-1 by Monoprice: upgrade time unclear Monolith HTP-1 to recieve HDMI 2.1 board in 2022 12. AVP McIntosh MX-135 and MX-180: - McIntosh AVP MX135 receives HDMI 2.1 upgrade (1-in-2-out) McIntosh AVP MX180 lunched and hosts 5-in-2-out HDMI 2.1 ports

2022/2023 - THIRD GEN HDMI 2.1 CHIPS - 48 Gbps 1. AVP Anthem AVM90: the company claims all ports 48 Gbps; 7-in-3-out AVM90 new production line available from March 21st 2. AVP Trinnov Altitude: the company released retail price list for July 2022 Trinnov Altitude price list July 2022 - HDMI 2.1 upgrade has the price, but not the date --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Development of full speed chips with 48 Gbps Full speed chips are currently in development. Why would users need 48 Gbps ports? There are two reasons that will push AV machines towards full speed ports in order to avoid becoming video signal bottleneck: SOURCES are already capable. Nvidia 3000 GPUs can output 48 Gbps video signal. Current AVRs/AVPs allow 4K/120Hz and 8K/60Hz signal pass-through, up to 40 Gbps, so Nvidia GPUs cannot push 4K/144Hz 10-bit RGB signal through AVRs onto capable display, unless there is end-to-end use of DSC. HDMI 2.1 spec still does not officially support 4K/144Hz. AVR with 40 Gbps ports is a bottleneck, both for data bandwidth and refresh rates. HDMI Forum might be preparing a minor revision to allow 144Hz refresh rates over 4K, for new 10-bit displays. In 2022, adoption of full speed HDMI ports is already accelerating in PC environment: new gen of GPUs from Nvidia (Lovelace), AMD (RDNA3) and Intel (DG2) will be capable of 48 Gbps over HDMI 2.1 and 80 Gbps over new DisplayPort 2.0 more PC motherboards will support FRL signal and feature level shifter HDMI 2.1 chip that will allow up to 48 Gbps output from integrated GPU on Intel and AMD's CPUs. PCs will be able to output full speed video signal without discrete GPU to new high res 10-bit displays. new laptop CPUs, such as AMD's 6000 Rembrandt, already support FRL signal on die; its integrated graphics RDNA2 has 4 display pipelines for HDMI 2.1 and DP 2.0 current consoles can output 32 Gbps (PS5) and 40 Gbps (Xbox SX). Expected console refresh in 2023 may increase bandwidth further several NUCs and mini-PCs, perfect for streaming, will come with wider bandwidth ports DISPLAYS - New gen of 4K/144Hz and 5K/100Hz 10-bit TVs and monitors will enter the market in 2022 and 2023 and will need full bandwidth. If AVRs do not upgrade HDMI ports to full speed and firmware to allow 4K/144 Hz, AVRs will be a bottleneck which is not future proof enough. Users will avoid pass-through connections or skip HDMI 2.1 on AVRs all together and resort to DisplayPort 2.0 that will give them wider bandwidth, or use direct connections between HDMI 2.1 and displays. This enthusiast and professional segment of market will be reduced if not served well by AVRs and AVPs. Monitors, especially high refresh 4K/5K gaming monitors and displays for creatives and other professionals, will become more bandwidth hungry than current 4K TVs are. This will drive a wave of buyers back to monitors, where they traditionally belong to. New gen of AVRs will need to respond to this trend with full speed ports and improved support in firmware. Full bandwidth is especially important as DSC feature on HDMI 2.1 ports is not widely supported on devices in consumer electronics market. All devices in a chain, source-AVR-display, need to support DSC for compressed signal to work on ports with reduced bandwidth. ~ Trinnov - hopes to implement the 48 Gbps chip, if they conclude that 2nd gen 40 Gbps chips are still not suitable for prime time (~1h 13 min) ~ others? - awating news and leaks

Current HDMI 2.1 sources	Upcoming real HDMI 2.1 sources (ports with 24 and up to 48 Gbps)
1. GPU - Nvidia 3000 series - 48 Gbps HDR10, 12-bit, HDMI VRR driver for 4K120 supports DSC over HDMI 2.1	1. AMD 6000 laptops - 24/48 Gbps? 2. Intel Arc GPU DG2 - Q3?
2. GPU - AMD 6000 series - 40 Gbps HDR10, 12-bit, no HDMI VRR driver for 4K120 no support for DSC over HDMI 2.1	3. Intel NUC 12 Enthusiast? 4. Intel laptop NUC X15 - 48Gb?
3. Console Xbox Series X - 40 Gbps HDR10, 10-bit, HDMI VRR 4K40-120, DV 4K120 DSC support?	5. Nvidia GPU Lovelace - Q4? 6. AMD GPU RDNA3 - Q4?
4. Console PS5 - 32 Gbps - HDR10, no VRR?
5. Asus ProArt Studiobook 16 4K OLED -

Features and trends in AVRs and AV processors in 2021/2022:

• companies working hard to release AV machines with 40 Gbps or combo 24/40 Gbps, in context of fire in AKM factory in Japan and global disruption due to Covid 19
• free hardware for faulty chips in 2020 models: Sound United (adapter box), Yamaha (board)
• not clear whether 48 Gbps chips are ready - Anthem claims AVM90 hosts full speed chips
• gaming feature ALLM seems to be working well across the board; almost no compaints
• gaming feature VRR has received a lot of complaints for patchiness in chain of devices
• quality features QMS and QFT have not been demonstrated to work; testing needed
• key features working reliably together is hit and miss: 4K+120Hz+10-bit+HDR+RGB+VRR
• Dolby Vision 4K/120Hz pass-through is available on Onkyo, XboxX and LG 1-2 TVs
• Teoh demonstrates 4K/120 12-bit 4-2-2 DolbyVision at 32 Gbps
• DSC image compression feature is available on AVRs, but not in most 4K/120 TVs and monitors; so DSC is practically unusable on any AVRs with 24 Gbps ports
• HDMI 2.1 adoption accelerates in PC and laptop environment in 2022

HDMI chart - bandwidth, resolutions, refresh rates, bit depth, RGB, chroma and DSC data

 

[dante01]

No TV has anything more than a 10 bit panel. This is basically why LG are no longer bothering with facilitating anything more than 40Gbps. The additional expense needed to facilitate 48Gbps is simply a waste of money if the TV panel is limited to 10 bits. You'd not even be able to distinguish the difference anyway so why bother?

48Gbps rate is only required to handle uncompressed 12-bit 4K at 120Hz with RGB 4:4:4 chroma. As said, no TV has anything more than a 10 bit panel and it is very unlikely that any manufacturer will make anything more than a 10 bit panel. The costs involved are simply not worth the results which probably wont even be distinguishable.

Even if a game was potentially able to up its output to 12-bit, it’s highly debatable that you would see a visible difference given that all TVs are currently only 10-bit. And as we’ve seen, LG (along with, I suspect, other brands taking a similar not-quite-full-48Gbps-approach to HDMI 2.1 this year) can reasonably argue that it can make a more visible difference with the extra power it’s making available to its video processing systems by limiting the HDMI 2.1 bandwidth.

LG’s 2020 4K OLED And LCD TVs Don’t Support Full 48Gbps HDMI 2.1

The brand explains a very unexpected change of heart

www.forbes.com

EDIT LG have reinstated the inclusion of a 48Gbps HDMI chipset in their most recent TVs. This was done after this post was dirst posted.

 

[dante01]

It should maybe stressed that most issues you'll encounter with handshaking are not and will not be hardware related. The issues are more often than not software issues and even get resolved from time to time via a firmware revision.

I don't really think it productive to try imply every issue an owner encounters is in some way due to a hardware issues with their HDMI chipset. Most of the issues current owners of HDMI version 2.1 equipped AV receivers are experiencing are no different to those previous generations have also encountered and those issues were not due to HDMI chipset hardware deficiencies. Lapse software and not enough testing yes, but not inherant hardware failues.

Members would be better posting in the relevant owners thread if seeking resolutions to such issues and if wanting to keep track of what their models manufacturer is doing to resolve such issues. I'm unsure as to what is gained by disenfranchising these issues from their owners threads here?

 

[TechEnthu]

I am glad you are enjoying the new thread. Welcome! I completely agree with you in terms of mainstream market, no doubt. The situation is what it is; for now though. Zoom out of current market and you might see things coming on the horizon.

It was not like this a few years ago and it will certainly not stay like this endlessly. Things are moving, tech evolves, there are early birds of future change. Chill out, relax and let us take you on a ride. Don't forget humour.

 

[TechEnthu]

It should maybe stressed that most issues you'll encounter with handshaking are not andwill not be hardware related. THe issues are more often than not software issues and even get resolved from time to time via a firmware revision.

You are right, but let's keep it specific to events relevant for our thread. If hardware was not a problem in the first place, we would not have announced a worldwide action of hardware changes and additional devices. We have boards exchange from Yamaha and adapter box from Sound United. By deploying these solutions, companies showed that it was a hardware part that failed to deliver in 2020 - aka faulty chip from Panasonic Solutions that was on offer back then. They could not solve issues with firmware. If they had been able to, they would have done it by now. It is as simple as that. It reads in the opening lines of this thread. Please read it. There is nothing to dispute here. It was a specific faulty chip. Moving on.

I don't really think it productive to try impy every issue an owner encounters is in some way due to a hardware issues with their HDMI chipset.

If you look more carefully in the opening post, general term "every issue" is nowhere to be found. There are specific issues and features listed in the opening post. Please read it before writing meaningless generalisations. The opening post is quite informative. It was praised in several discussion groups for effort to collect information, being concise, specific, relevant, useful and to the point, allowing further questions form members, etc. It's really good.

Most of the issues current owners of HDMI version 2.1 equipped AV receivers are experiencing are no different to those previous generations have also encountered and those issues were not due to HDMI chipset hardware deficiencies. Lapse software and not enough testing yes, but not inherant hardware failues.

I am not talking about "most issues" anywhere. Please read the opening post. There is all sorts of relevant information, both about hardware and software, including various features and combinations of features.

I found it suitable to organize content according to generations of chips, as this appears to be dictating capabilities and performance of video and graphics features, in conjunction with suitable software. This is the case not only in AVRs, but in sorts of devices. I'd much appreciate if could recognize that it is me who organised the content. If you do not like it, you are free not to engage with it. Whatever the case, we would like to hear multiple voices.

 

[TechEnthu]

The additional expense needed to facilitate 48Gbps is simply a waste of money if the TV panel is limited to 10 bits. You'd not even be able to distinguish the difference anyway so why bother?

Leave the perception of difference to users. Research suggests that individual bending perception is between 10-11 bits. There are good reasons why Dolby Vision is a 12-bit, future-proof standard. You are right for the current mainstream market. No one is disputing with you. We discuss here both current market and new developments. Mainstream is by no means limiting the scope of the thread as solutions for some AV processors are likely to arrive sooner.

Technology is moving forward. There are early birds of change. Hisense released 12-bit TV and there will be more to follow in next couple of years. Monitors with 48 Gbps ports will be released this year and new graphics cards are also capable. Professionals in several industries will gradually need an access to maximum bandwith in AV devices, especially in studios for content creation. Someone is already working on full speed chips. Think Invecas demoed some of those experimentally. It will arrive sooner or later. 48 Gbps is not specifically an issue for AVRs. It was only stated in OP that no one mentions this speed, as the chips are not ready. It was never mentioned that it is an issue to be concerned with. Please read carefully.

40 Gbps is by far enough for 99% of mainstream users, for time-being. Moving on to more specific issues AVRs are facing, including 40 Gbps.

 

[dante01]

Whatever.

Let's see how many post it takes you to reply to that?

 

[TechEnthu]

For the awareness of consumers who want to create specific home theatre configurations with new AVRs. Here is a new monitor from Acer that will need 48 Gbps connection, so full speed HDMI 2.1.

Acer Predator CG437K S with 42.5" 4K Panel, 144Hz Refresh Rate, HDR 1000 and HDMI 2.1 - TFTCentral

Share this contentAcer have today announced their new Predator CG437K S display, a 42.5″ sized large format display aimed at

www.tftcentral.co.uk

There will be a wave of similar displays later this year and next year. It's a clear example that HDMI 2.1 maximum bandwidth is already fully utilised in design of panels and ready for prime time.
Key features:

• VESA HDR1000 Display certification (1000 nits); VA panel
• HDMI 2.1 dual input port- 48 Gbps (for consoles and GPUs)
• conventional, mainstream UHD resolution (3840x2160), aka 4K
• 42 inch, 10-bit panel and 144 Hz refresh rate
• due to TV-like features, the panel can be effectively used for all 4K HDR streaming services

This display will need to avoid direct connections to new AVRs and AV processors, as those will host 40 Gbps ports only. For maximum capability, the best connection will be directly to Nvidia and AMD graphics cards (4K+10-bit+144Hz+RGB+VRR). AVRs currently allow up to 4K120Hz pass-through on repeater chips.

Accelerating adoption of conventional 4K HDR features from TV environment to monitors, with addition of higher than 120Hz refresh rates, is an interesting trend. While HDMI 2.1 was designed by and for mainstream consumer electronics, chosen link speed is predominantly limited to 40 Gbps on TVs, AVRs and consoles. However, PC environment decided to fully embrace widest possible bandwidth of 48 Gbps from the outset. A bit of irony for HDMI there, as this situation creates unnecessary barriers between devices that could perform better from those ones that would limit them.

Usage of this and similar panels will be for specific configurations by users who wish to add this promising display to their current home theatre gear. Extracting and routing lossless audio to AVR will be an inconvenient workaround, as AVR is a bottleneck for video link speed here. You will need to have another HDMI port either on motherboard or on GPU, which is not commonly the case, so that audio is split from video at the source. Or use adapter.

These AV home gear integration inconveniences should accelerate the development of full speed HDMI 2.1 chips for AVRs, capable of passing 48 Gbps. This is expected in late 2022-2023 in some models of next gen AVRs and/or AV processors. Trinnov engineer John Heron hinted at this possibility. When asked about 40 Gbps chips, which were tested with aim to upgrade boards on Altitude processors, he said that if the company was not happy with second gen chips, they would wait for another round of chips to be developed. Fingers crossed.

 

[Krobar]

Home Cinema choice mentioned early 2022 for the Anthem upgrade in their MRX740 review. Arcam still saying end of this year but since it seems Arcam and Anthem are using the same boards I imagine they will release at similar times.

 

[Jay53]

I see on the US based AV forum that adaptor boxes for the Denon have started to arrive and that one person has mentioned it's working with Xbox X at 4k/120 HDR + VRR......
....I am sure it's legit but for the sceptics no photo proof though

 

[alebonau]

jdsmoothie on AVS had posted a photo showing VRR with the denon

also as posted by flat panelHD, while there will be one 8k input with the denon/marantz A models all inputs will support the hdmi 2.1 feature set...

 

[TechEnthu]

Good news, indeed. The box finally corrects the faulty chip inside of AVR. Well done.

Out of curiosity. Everytime user wishes to connect another source to single 4K120 port, must they unplug the adapter box all together from the back panel or simply unplug the console and connect whatever source to the adapter box?

If it's the first option, the inconvenience of accessing back panel and moving furniture every time source swap happens is not acceptable. I hope they learnt lessons from 2020 launch and never again release AVRs with one single port of increasingly popular ports.

 

[decson74]

This "Roland Krüger hinted 'expansion hardware for multi 4K120 inputs" is of interest. For me personally I only have 2 devices capable of using it, PS5 and new Apple TV. But. I would like the option for future with my 3700. For now plan to use one 2.1 port on tv for PS5 and The Denon port for Apple TV. But longer term if I did get an xbox, that would fix current restriction.. Though not sure I will need 120 for Apple TV, but nice to know I can lol.
Have signed up for the adaptor box, to keep for future needs .

 

[TechEnthu]

This "Roland Krüger hinted 'expansion hardware for multi 4K120 inputs" is of interest.

Yes. Sound United realised that realising AVRs with one single speedy port was not going to give them a competitive edge with all other companies that are going to be realising AVRs with multi-speedy-ports this year. So, "box 2.0" is the best they could come up with until they develop all port 40 Gbps boards.

One thing that I do not understand is why they did not take an opportunity to implement all ports with 40 Gbps when silicon is already available and other companies did it.

 

[decson74]

Yes. Sound United realised that realising AVRs with one single speedy port was not going to give them a competitive edge with all other companies that are going to be realising AVRs with multi-speedy-ports this year. So, "box 2.0" is the best they could come up with until they develop all port 40 Gbps boards.

One thing that I do not understand is why they did not take an opportunity to implement all ports with 40 Gbps when silicon is already available and other companies did it.

The 3700 is my first proper AV from all in one systems… and I’m extremely impressed. I knew of the limitation before hand. But I’m definitely open to an easier upgrade until I switch out later down the line.
So this works for me . Thanks for sharing.

 

[Jay53]

This "Roland Krüger hinted 'expansion hardware for multi 4K120 inputs" is of interest. For me personally I only have 2 devices capable of using it, PS5 and new Apple TV. But. I would like the option for future with my 3700. For now plan to use one 2.1 port on tv for PS5 and The Denon port for Apple TV. But longer term if I did get an xbox, that would fix current restriction.. Though not sure I will need 120 for Apple TV, but nice to know I can lol.
Have signed up for the adaptor box, to keep for future needs .

I assume your TV has multiple hdmi 2.1 ports? If yes then you are already covered for multiple hdmi 2.1 devices. If not, then you wont be able to plug PS5 into TV and feed a 4k/120 signal from your AVR?

 

[TechEnthu]

I assume your TV has multiple hdmi 2.1 ports? If yes then you are already covered for multiple hdmi 2.1 devices. If not, then not sure how you would be able to plug PS5 into TV and feed a 4k/120 signal from your AVR?

True.
It's mind-boggling that minimum two speedy ports are not a standard on all TVs and AVRs. Some TVs even install eARC on one single 2.1 port. Ridiculous.

 

[decson74]

That’s the issue. I’m waiting for the new Philips 806 which only has 2 x 2.1 and 1 x earc. If I didn’t like ambilight so much I’d just get a LG CX.

So im good with the just 2 for now but if wanted to get the Xbox as example another 1 would be good lol. It’s just having the options .

 

[TechEnthu]

Future-proofing mind exercise for a coffee break...

We know that AVRs and AV processors are devices that are supposed to be future-proof, for at least 5-7 years, especially now, during the important transition to HDMI 2.1. We do not exchange those devices as frequently as mobile phones, so the topic is relevant for this thread.

Someone asked about increasing HDMI bandwidth, multi-ports on AVRs and trends. Here is a summary of what I found, after researching the trends across several tech and entertainment industries. I'd like to know what members think about it in relation to new AVRs being capable to deal with developments elsewhere and whether current offer is future-proof enough.

HDMI 2.1 has still not settled in properly and there are already legit questions about what's next. As for HDMI spec, minor additions of new quality features are common. It happened before. However, major change ("HDMI 3.0"), doubling the bandwidth to 96 Gbps (for 8K60 10/12-bit RGB) or tripling the bandwidth to 144 Gbps (for 8K120 10/12-bit) will not take place until 2025-2027. For this to happen, three features need a major push - resolutions, bit depth and refresh rates. Each feature is currently being experimented with by individual companies with interesting results below. Plus, panel sizes will increase to above 100 inch too. Samsung showcased 110 inch mini-LED TV recently. No one will go to cinema anymore by 2030 Those features will eventually converge and emerge in commercial devices, requiring more than 48 Gbps, such as:

• 5K120 and 5K144 10-bit RGB monitors (2022; ~50-65 Gbps)
• 8K60 10/12-bit RGB TV panel (80-96 Gbps)
• 8K120 10/12-bit TV panel (128-144 Gbps)

Those numbers may look silly today, but four industries have been identified that would drive change in required bandwidth, both towards 48 Gbps and beyond it:

1. TV industry - (resolutions, bit depth and refresh rates)

• 8K60 10-bit TVs are gradually making a breakthrough into mainstream, from current ~2.7 million panels sold worldwide to tens of millions, projected in next 5-7 years. Asian households are major emerging market for those panels.
• Plus, new 12-bit panels. Hisense has released one already, so there are early birds of the trend. It will take a few years. Finally full scale Dolby Vision? Perhaps, but in gradual steps. First hurdle is DV 4K120 10-bit. Microsoft is now waiting for display companies to upgrade TVs for Dolby Vision 4K120 10-bit. LG stated they are working on the solution for 1 gen of TVs. So, all TVs supporting DV will be under pressure to move onto 4K120Hz 10-bit at least to stay competitive.
• Also, some TV companies will be pushing for 144 Hz refresh rates to attract the crowd of next gen of consoles or mid-cycle upgrade, such as "PS5-Pro" or "XboxX-Neo". None of those features will come in one package and in one go.

2. Next gen consoles and GPUs - will host new exciting tech features from AMD under the hood. AMD's Zen 4 CPUs (2022), new RDNA3 graphics and media engine (2022) will deliver stellar performance in 4K 144Hz domain and will be capable of doing that by outputting both 10 and 12-bit signal. This is currently in development on 5nm node and will find adaptation for new editions of consoles too. Displays will need to catch-up with image specs to allow for this to be played. We are looking at ~2023 for mid-cycle console upgrade, if one happens.

3. HDMI 2.1 dongles and 4K120 streaming services - upcoming Apple TV 4K is rumoured to be capable of 4K120 10-bit streaming. There are released patches of software pointing in this direction. There are broadcasters considering rolling out this service in some fast-paced sports, such as football and Formula 1. Apple is probably now in feasibility negotiations. Fast-paced live content (apart from games) will be a major drive for HDMI 2.1 adoption in dongles and online streaming. Both TVs and monitors will need to step-up the game for this to remain competitive with current capable displays.

4. PC industry - this one is very interesting, indeed. HDMI bandwidth revision may actually come sooner because of current developments in PC monitor market, rather than in TV market. Every single modern monitor on the planet has HDMI port. Upcoming monitors are rapidly closing the gap with TVs and will explode in popularity by adopting several features from TVs. New 42-inch monitor from Acer (post #8) will require full speed of 48 Gbps. It hosts two HDMI 2.1 ports. It's a TV-like or TV-centric panel, with conventional UHD 4K resolution of 3840x2160, 1000 nits (VESA Display HDR certified) and 144Hz. This monitor is fully capable of all 4K HDR streaming services via HDMI dongles or via web browser. Such monitors will become major competitors to TVs, as they are able to deliver several hybrid features that matter for TVs and PCs.

There are a dozen of upcoming monitors being tested and validated that will need 48 Gbps and more. 5K120 10-bit requires new DisplayPort 2.0 bandwidth of up to 77 Gbps. VESA's DP is ready for that. Those are not 8K displays, but regular 4K and 5K 10-bit displays with higher refresh rates, 120Hz and above. This is the point where HDMI 2.1 maximum bandwidth is not enough for monitors and latest HDMI ports are not useful anymore. It will start in 2022 with high-end professional panels. Once those monitors are out, HDMI Forum will need to look at creating a roadmap for "HDMI 3.0".

Competition with TV will be ferocious, as new monitors have also grown in size and offer UHD 4K image in sizes from 27 inch to whopping 55 inches. Also, OLED panels are being installed in new monitors. Check out new LG. This points in direction of high quality hybrid displays for all consumers tastes. TV vs. PC boundary will become ever more blurry, depending on how users consume video content. No one will be able to say anymore what connecting HDMI 2.1 monitor to AVR is irrelevant. It's not. It is AVRs that need to adapt to new monitor capabilities.

How do these industry trends link to new AVRs and AV processors? Where does this place upcoming AVRs with 40 Gbps ports? Those AVRs will, of course, penetrate mainstream market for several years, but companies are already realising that they really need to step up the game with third gen of HDMI 2.1 chips that will finally deliver full speed of 48 Gbps by 2023, if receivers are not to become bandwidth bottleneck in a few years. Next gen of receivers need to enable several new features apart from full port speed, such as 4K 144Hz pass-through for all TV-centric HDMI 2.1 monitors coming into the market this year already. Some of traditional TV crowd will find those new monitors really attractive for their home theatre needs.

Developments mentioned above are behind the decision to develop multi-port box for Denon AVRs. They have to, as they can see trends i different industries. So can we. They pay market trend companies to bring them analysis of things to come. I am not sure who advised them to adopt one speedy port and remain stubborn about it for long time? One single speedy port will not be able to deliver for growing number of consumers and devices coming into the market. It's blatantly obvious.

 

[dante01]

Are Sony and Microsoft planning on launching new games consoles or platforms in the next 5 to 7 years? No

Are the TV manufacturers or those making the panels likely to start manufacturing 12 bit panels or TVs? No.

Is there ever likely to be an 8K disc based media? Extremely unlikely. Even if 8K content is made available, the chances are that it will be delivered via IP directly to the TV and will therefore not need HDMI to convey it from a source to said display.

If demanding higher bandwidths than what the manudfacturers are currently facilitating then you are effectively asking for the prices of goods with such capabilities to rise with no benefit to you the consumer. You'll not gain anything and will be paying for the privilege.


As to Apple:

Multiple references to “120Hz” and “supports120Hz” have been added to tvOS’ PineBoard in the latest beta release. …These references strongly suggest that Apple is at least internally testing a 120Hz mode for Apple TV.

It’s important to point out, however, that the current Apple TV 4K doesn’t support 120Hz — even with a software update. That’s because the current-generation Apple TV is equipped with an HDMI 2.0 port, which is limited to 4K resolution at 60Hz. To enable 4K resolution at 120Hz, an HDMI 2.1 port is required.

By the way, tvOS is in the public domain and isn't leaked. Get your facts right. Apple release it for use in beta form for developers and anyone can sign up and attain it. The current beta version is 14.7.

As to 8K TVs, yes they are or were being heavilly pushed by certain manufacturers, but not worldwide and more so in Japan where the Olympics were set to be televised by NHK in 8K. The only western country that appeared to be interested was Italy. The Italian broadcaster RAI hasn't raised this issue again since last years Olympics were postponed/cancelled. THey have nothing else in 8K to broadcast so why would they launch an 8K service and why would you need an 8K TV? The actual benefots are limited to much bigger TVs anyway and you'd be paying a small fortune for an 8K TV big enough to benefit from the additional resiolution. Samsungs flagship model costs £8K which is twice as much as a larger LG 4K model.


If you are going to keep posting what you've scraped from the internet then make sure you post it all and not just the elements that suit your agenda or match your opinion.

 

[Jay53]

Microsoft launched Xbox one Nov 2013 and Xbox one x November 2017 with support for playing 4k games and the Xbox series X november 2020 so we can't say for sure it's a definite No.

As to 12bit TVs Hisense have one

 

[dante01]

As to 12bit TVs Hisense have one

So you'll be buying one then? And if not then why? Besides which, it isn't equipped with HDMI version 2.1.

 

[Jay53]

So you'll be buying one then? And if not then why?

Nope. Only bought my last TV 11 months ago which supports 4k/120 but not eARC. Not made of money and still need to upgrade my AVR yet

Was just pointing out that things are moving rapidly and some sources are pushing the boundaries already which in turn pushes the industry as a whole to adopt.

Another example is the Xbox series X now Indicates separately if your TV supports Dolby vision at 4k/120 which currently no TV does. LG are looking into it for their next gen model i.e. no plans to provide it on currently available TVs.

 

[dante01]

Nope. Only bought my last TV 11 months ago which supports 4k/120 but not eARC. Not made of money and still need to upgrade my AVR yet

And neither will I be rushing out to buy an 8K TV.

I actually own a TV with 4 x 48Gbps inputs. I've no need of them or HDMI version 2.1. I think most of the people (the majority) interested in AV aren't all that bothered by HDMI version 2.1, 8K or even 4K/120Hz? The later is only of real interest to gamers at this point in time.

4K/120Hz may become more desirable in relation to sporting events and their coverage. THis is really where there's been some interest expressed relative to it apart from the current interest expressed by the gaming community. I cannot see studios investing any more time or money into the production of films woth higher frame rates. THey gone down that path and it didn't go too well. Even the gaming community has had to admit that console gaming at 4K/120Hz has its downside and that the consoles haven't the processing power that they were initially suggested has having. You actually lose video features at 4K/120Hz that you'd have at 60Hz.

 

[dante01]

Out of interest and seeing as TechEnthu has posted in many of the existing threads to suggest individuals should post their HDMI handshake issue etc here …

what makes TechEnthu so sure that these issues are anything to do with the chipset being employed? Such issues are ordinarilly software related and not due to the actual chipset employed. The issues may even be caused by EDID conflicts which are again software related as opposed to having anything to do with the physical chipset. Not to mention that many issues are with the devices connected to the AV receiver and not actually an issue with the AVR itself.

There's also the topics being raised here within this thread being the same as the topics already posted in an existing thread. Do these posts need a duplicate over and over again?

Why does the AV receivers forum need a topic specifically discussing HDMI chipsets when HDMI chipsets are not exclusive to AV receivers, especially one where its op has indicated to other users not to use established owners threads and come post here where he'll not be equipped with the knowledge needed to help them or have any experience of using their particular AV receiver?

What exactly has this yopic to do with AV receivers. It appears to be discussing the theoretical future of HDMI. Yes, HDMI is part of the AV receiver ecosystem, but this topic is far from one where AV receivers appear to be being discussed? Why redirect members here? Most have no interest is theiretical implimentations of HDMI version 2.1. THey are about as inyterested inthis as they were with the advent of HDMI version 1.1, 1.3, 1.4 and 2.o (and 2,0b). There's no similar topics discussing these HDMI versions.

Scraping the web for everything you can find that includes any mention of HDMI version 2.1 is great id you intend writting the history of HDMI version 2.1 at some point in the future, but doesn't really benefot anyone experiencing an HDMI handshake issue or a problem with an EDID conflict.

What is this thread's intended purpose, a debate about the theoretical ideology of HDMI version 2.1? Its like a cult or religion!






I'll use my experience to let you into a secret. Come 5 to 7 years from now, you'll be replacing your current newly bought AV receivers with newer models and not for anything being discussed here within this thread. Those features that are known now and being discussed will be superseded by yet unknown ones and these will be more than likely why you will want or think you need a new AVR. Buying now or demanding something now in order to try future proof yourself will not futire proof your hardware.