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HDCP HD Through PC ??

Discussion in 'Desktop & Laptop Computers Forum' started by tbrar, Sep 1, 2003.

  1. tbrar

    tbrar
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    Having just placed my order for a HCPC, It struck me about playing future HDCP souces (HD DVD's?) through a HCPC and the subsequent implications for users.

    I posted on AVSFORUM's and received this response:-

    I know this is jumping the gun somewhat, but am very curious as to any views on this from forum members.

    Tony
     
  2. Jenz

    Jenz
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    Well my view is that I fully agree with the response.

    Certainly the conversations along the lines of this with the Vendors I have been been beta testing for (DVD Players) have been exactly the same. The vendors do not want another decryption disaster with such hi-def content.

    Neil.
     
  3. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
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    So our HTPC's may have a limited life then? Mind you, if we get Hi-Def direct from a DVD player then we won't need HTPC's anyway so all is not lost:clap: (at least for DVD playback).

    Paul
     
  4. Jeff

    Jeff
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    If they try to do HD-DVD without PC support it will fail, or at least it will in the short term. PCs were and still are a huge factor in DVDs success.
     
  5. Jenz

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    Bus Bandwidth is another issue, Intel's PCI Express products next year will sort that out though.
     
  6. NeilMcRae

    NeilMcRae
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    I give it 2 months after its widely available before some Scandanavian hacker breaks any such protection with mod chips or something else

    The Xbox has a similiar type of handshake and within about a month of it being out it had been cracked.

    Regards,
    Neil.
     
  7. KraGorn

    KraGorn
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    I suspect HDCP on PCs will be based on DVD players tied to Palladium/TCPA hardware ... Linux users need not apply in such a scenario. The current view seems to be that TCPA will not be crackable by the sort of bedroom-crackers which break games .. IIRC, DeCSS only came about because a sloppy licensee (Xing?) left a key in plain view of anyone who looked for it, don't expect THAT to happen again. ;)
     
  8. tbrar

    tbrar
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    KRaGorn (or anyone else for that matter)

    Would you mind explaining what is meant by the above ?

    Thanks


    Tony
     
  9. KraGorn

    KraGorn
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    TCPA ... Trusted Computing Platform Alliance

    Palladium ... codename for Microsoft technology

    Put simply, this technology creates a highly-secure environment where software suppliers can control just what you can and can't do. It is highly hardware dependent, Intel will supply motherboard electronics, the BIOS developers will provide boot-time support, Microsoft will create the Windows layers to implement it. Cracking will require expensive hardware logic analysers, not clever use of a debugger.

    This is the the RIAA/MPAA's wet dream, it will be highly resistant to bedroom hacking, when fully deployed will need highly-expensive ciruit analysers to break. This will allow region coding enforcement for example with NO way to avoid it.

    The very first deployment of a small number of these techniques can be seen in the X-Box, though that was totally software based so was crackable ... TCPA/Palladium won't be so vulnerable.

    Expect any software licesned to play HDCP media to run inside the protected area of Windows. This is due to be in Longhorn, the next major Windows version supposedly out in 2005. However, some of the motherboard-side hardware will be released soon, the idea being to seed PCs with the hardware so the market place is ready when the softwre follows.

    Some links you may find interesting:

    TCPA home site
    TCG - hardware support for TCPA
    Counterpane's View - Bruce Schneier is a highy regarded cryptographer

    There's not much decent info from MS themselves at present. I haven't linked the more extreme conspiracy-theorist/ant-MS sites, this topic gets very heated to some. ;)
     
  10. tbrar

    tbrar
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    KRaGorn - thanks for all the information :smashin:

    Tony
     
  11. KraGorn

    KraGorn
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    If you want some more techy stuff this set of articles explains in some detail the entire DVD, DVD-A and SACD protection infrastructure, including HDCP-DVI among many.
     
  12. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
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    Back to importing (Hi-Def) R1 DVD players from the States then. This is how I started DVD'ing when the first players came out and no-one had even heard of DVDs in the UK!

    Never thought I'd have to resort to having to import a player again! Bit of a pest but no big deal I suppose.
    Paul
     
  13. tbrar

    tbrar
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    Thats for playing Region 1 HDCP HD Material I take it, independantly of your HTPC ?.

    However just for Region 2 HDCP HD (If my understanding is correct), will require a complete rebuild of your PC to support compliant components :eek:

    That is should you still wish to use your HTPC as source.

    The posotive thing is at least it will be possible (if info is correct) and with a HTPC solution components can be upgraded gradually in preperation for the new format.

    Once it has been finalised and agreed ........... :rolleyes:
     
  14. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
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    Hi Tony,
    Yep R1 playback (99.9% of my DVDs are R1). In any case, if the future Hi-Def DVD players give us 720p (and beyond) then there is arguably no need for an HTPC anyway (unless you are scaling other sources but even then... HDTV sat receiver anyone!?)

    Yes, a complete PC rebuild would be necessary (providing PC's are allowed to playback Hi-Def DVD's). The region lock would be a killer for me though. Could build a US spec HTPC (US version of windows, R1 DVD player and new motherboard, as well as probably new RAM and CPU perhaps?) I suppose, but again why bother if we can get Hi-Def straight from a (in my case R1) Hi-Def player ?

    Need to keep an eye on this for the future methinks. Interesting thread.
    Paul
     
  15. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
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    Indeed, early days yet.
    Paul
     
  16. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
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    Another thought - any reason we would still need a scaler with Hi-Def DVD or HDTV? If output is standard at 720p (or whatever), then it sort of makes scalers redundant if the pj/plasma the source is feeding has the required resolution to display it.

    I suppose we could upscale to 1080p but theres not that much out there pj-wise that could cope with that (at least not yet and even if there was, perhaps 1080p will be part of the Hi-Def player spec anyway, who knows?). Rather than scaling up, some of us may be scaling down hi-def so as to be able to display it!

    Theres more to this than first appears. With JVC now having a Blue-Ray DVD player on show at CEDIA and with Hi-Def satellite broadcasts just about to kick off in Europe, perhaps this Hi-Def stuff is moving a lot faster than we think and its implications are wider than we realise.
    Paul
     
  17. tbrar

    tbrar
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    Paul,

    I see your point re standalone players.

    However as part of my eval procedure for Video processor, I owned a Momitsu V880 DVD Player. This offered scaled outputs of 720p and 1080i through DVI aswell as 1024 x 768 native, also claimed to be HDCP compliant.

    The issue with it was, as I imagine with standalone solutions of the future, was its lack of flexibility. It offered fixed refresh rates for output, which rendered viewing on my panel unsuitable for a number of reasons (pans/artifacts/black borders etc)...

    Consequently, I sold it.:D

    Now whether or not future units of this type offer more flexibility in line with a HTPC, we will have to wait and see.......but to be honest I doubt it.


    Tony
     
  18. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
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    Funnily enough I actually started to write a bit about HTPC/scaler flexibility in comparison to a DVD player and the refresh rates was exactly what I was thinking of - great minds and all that - but then edited it out.

    Totally agree, an HTPC simply cannot be beaten for being able to manipulate the display in almost any way shape or form! I would much prefer to have a Hi-Def HTPC than a Hi-Def standalone player. We'll see how things progress, hopefully HTPC will continue on its merry way for quite some time. If not, lets hope for hi-def players with lots of bells and whistles :cool:
    Paul
     

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