Hd

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by mintminty59, Aug 3, 2006.

  1. mintminty59

    mintminty59
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    55
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    Well I am at the end of the road for CRT projection i think

    Could anyone give me a rough estimate on the following so I can asses if its time to move onto DLP HD

    A) Price on a decent CRT projector that can handle 1280x1024 resolution (with PC interface for playing fs2004) and HD for future use (recon if possible with newish tubes)

    B) Must include installation of this beast and a screen size of 200" if possible (dont worry about the screen itself more worried about size of image)


    You can get decent projectors now for around £800 (Panasonic AE900 for example)

    Any advice u chaps can give - I also have a pile of Seleco stuff here so if its a enthusiast then more than welcome to all the bits (some are in bits) but have a few ones completed ideal for recon just dont have the time to do anything with them.
     
  2. Barcoing Mad

    Barcoing Mad
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,501
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    64
    Location:
    Norfolk
    Ratings:
    +242
    That is a large screen. Where do you plan to sit?

    The Panasonic AE900 is 1280x720. A decent Barco 801s will happily do that and give you a more pleasing picture for HD if black levels, and shadow detail are of interest to you.
     
  3. mintminty59

    mintminty59
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    55
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks for that , now I have something to work on.

    I am about to buy a detached house in wales , and the room I have assigned to it is 16 foot long by 15 foot wide so plenty of space and a nice size room for surround sound to.

    Any ideas what a fully kitted 801 is and how much would it cost for installation

    I do have a 350+ seleco here that with a few days spent on it , i could get it to good working order (defung) and also maybe just swap tubes out with another 350 I have knocking around. How easy are they to upgrade to accept XVGA signals
     
  4. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    2,783
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Ratings:
    +109
    As Barcoing Mad beat me to saying, a late model Barco 8xx series with a HD input card will tick all your boxes including HD compatibility with HDCP decryption. I guess about £2K for the pj and card.

    I don't believe there's a budget single lens pj (or even mid range one, come to think of it) that has a native resolution high enough to handle 1280x1024. The nearest is probably the Sony VPL-VW100 (SXRD, 1980x1080, c.£6K). It's OK out of the box but needs a decent scaler to really sing. Think iScan VP30, CineVersum Master Two, Lumagen or Crystallio III at £1.5K-£3K. It's not bright enough though to do a good job of lighting up a 200" screen.

    BTW - 200" 16:9 is 14.5ftx8.2ft. 200" 4:3 is 13.3ftx10ft. That's huge! tbh you'll need to throw more light at a screen that size than any sub £20K HC projector can produce. Are you sure about that screen size?

    As for the entry level single lens HD pjs, they do look incredible value. They're not perfect of course, but if you can find one with acceptable compromises in rainbow (DLP), or screendoor (LCD), or processing issues then you'll have a reasonable starting point.

    Be aware, the new budget HD DLPs like the InFocus IN76 hit their price point by using a lower spec universal DLP chip. It's a hybrid 4:3/16:9 chip. InFocus admit that the performance is lower than the proper HD2+ chip. I guess one law still holds true: You get what you pay for. :rolleyes:
     
  5. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    2,783
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Ratings:
    +109
    The 350 chassis won't accept any PC resolution. Don't waste your time or money. From the Seleco range you need either a 7xx series or 900 series data projector or the SVD800 HD home cinema machine. Barco 8xx series are more readily available.

    Didn't you have a go at defunging some time ago. Has it come back?
     
  6. mintminty59

    mintminty59
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    55
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    I never actually got around to it in the end lmao , its still in my back room along with the other 8 seleco kits all over the place. I was gonna offer any parts that couple needed to fix there 150 up for free , but u sorted that. Which i might add was very very good of you.

    Thats a shame about seleco range not doing VGA outputs. My main goal has always been to be able to play flight simulator 2004 on a MASSIVE screen. I invested in a ATI graphics 512mb SLI kit to really make games shine.

    JUst need to find a way , to get everything together :)
     
  7. Barcoing Mad

    Barcoing Mad
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,501
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    64
    Location:
    Norfolk
    Ratings:
    +242
    My room is about 16' by 16'. A 7'6'' wide screen looks big enough on the wall. You're not going to be able to fill the whole wall with a CRT PJ - too dim and throw distance wrong (1.5x screen width roughly). In general, the best seat in the house is on/under the PJ, and that'll define your viewing angle. Any closer, things start looking soft, slight misconvergences are obvious, artefacts obvious...there's wanting a good pciture, then there's being unreasonable!
     
  8. Barcoing Mad

    Barcoing Mad
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,501
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    64
    Location:
    Norfolk
    Ratings:
    +242
  9. cosaw

    cosaw
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2003
    Messages:
    753
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    Stockport, Manchester
    Ratings:
    +20
    I pretty much agree with what Barcoing Mad is saying on every level.
     
  10. mintminty59

    mintminty59
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    55
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    im not sure what to do now then , is that 7ft across or 7ft diagonal


    Anyone wanna swap

    A Seleco 350 , and a Seleco 350+ (2 projectors) , and another 350+ for spares for a barco ? well hey was worth a try
     
  11. cosaw

    cosaw
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2003
    Messages:
    753
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    Stockport, Manchester
    Ratings:
    +20
    I think most of us on the crt pj forum talk in width rather than diagonal. Diagonal can be different depeding on wether you're talking about 4:3 or 16:9.

    To give you an idea, my room is around 14 foot long. Screen at one end and pj at the other with around 12inches to the back wall behind the pj. My screen is 7ft wide and is mostly filled at this distance. My pj is a Barco 500 which has the same size outer casing as an 800 (but differnt tube/lens size). I would have thought a 16ft room would nicely accomodate an 8ft wide screen whether it be 4:3 or 16:9 - its the width that is the main factor in determining throw - that being said if you've got a low ceiling and you go for 4:3 you're more likely to have to drop the pj lower the more you increase distance to screen. This is purely to accomodate screen height and the projector being level. A 16:9 screen generally allows you to keep the pj closer to the ceiling at longer throw distances.

    As Barcoing said - work out where you want to sit and then think of the pj as just above you're head maybe with you nearer the back end of the pj. Use this throw distance and see what screen size you get in the Barco Lens prog. I think its generally considered that going much more than 8ft with and 800 is passing its optimum.

    Have you downloaded the Barco Lens program and tried a few numbers in it?

    See this page: http://www.lynxxx.nl/barco/calculatingdistance.asp

    The link to the Lens prog is at the bottom.
     
  12. Mad Mr H

    Mad Mr H
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Messages:
    4,460
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +280
    Check the for sale threads here.....

    there are Barco 801s units for sale there that belong to members of the CRT section.........

    Under a grand and worth every penny......

    :thumbsup:


    there is NO WAY you will be happy with any digi on a 10 foot screen UNLESS you watch from about 15m away......
     
  13. mintminty59

    mintminty59
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    55
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    I am now lookign into that option , but DLP is still etched into mt brain lol after seing one down local store
     
  14. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    14,084
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +3,486
    You could compromise on size a little and opt for 140" wide which I would think is do-able for an affordable digital. For a 10ft wide screen you will need at least 580 genuine lumens from a digital projector with a UHP lamp (advertised lumens are up to 30 tio 40% higher than reality due to colour calibration for video which reduces the brightness). That's unlikely from a 7" CRT I would think, and I don't know what 8" CRTs can manage this without being driven hard (but if tube prices and fitting them aren't that bad then why not do that and change your tubes every 2000 hours?). You can achieve this with a digital but as MMH has said, screendoor may be an issue for you if you're used to (and prefer) the smoothness a CRT can provide. I sit 1.5 times screen widths away from my screen using an anamorphic lens and screendoor isn't an issue (DVD looks a little chunky at times at this range without an anamorpchic lens, but HD is fine). It's possible that a slight defocus will make any SDE a non issue for you viewing a normal digital without any additional lenses. 1.8 X or further back should make it a non issue with 1280 x 720 machines for most people. You will need to demo and see if that's OK for you though.

    DLP has a better fill factor (less SDE) than most LCDs unless they use a smoothscreen technology (which isn't to everyones taste). The Canon Xceed 50 and 60 are LCoS machines with very little screendoor, high lumens and 1400 x 1050 4:3, so could be an alternative for you (but start from over £2000 and the CR is limited to about 1000:1, so are a bit grey looking with blacks unless you use the 60 in cinema mode but that reduces the lumens).

    Anything with a genuine 2000:1 + on/off CR will give you all the shadow detail that is in the source, but of course your absolute black level will not be very good. DLP has very good intra-field contrast capabilities (displaying black and white at the same time) and if you have a dark room with no reflective surfaces this will be double what you are getting from your CRT, so there are some pros as well as cons.

    So other than getting a (good) demo, you will need to know if a particular pj can give you the lumens (and image quality you are happy with) that you need for that screen size, and you need to take into acount that the lamp will dim with age. It's quite possible that the overall image brightness you are getting now from your CRT is about what a lamp will give you after about 2000 hours anyway, so overall you will start out bigger and brighter, and just end up dimmer and need a new lamp after 2000 hours. Depending on your usage, you may never have to change the lamp (I havn't).

    Having something with over 2000 (genuine) lumens and dimming it down with an ND2 filtter will give you the lumens you need for a 10ft wide screen and cinema levels of reflectance (12 ft lamberts). As the lamp ages you can remove the ND filter to get some brightness back. I actually prefer 7 to 9 FL from a digital (providing it has over 2000:1 on/off CR) so brightness may not be as big an issue as it may first seem. It is a case of knowing what you can accept over all though.

    What type of screen were you thinking of using? The Da-Lite High Power screen is approx 2.8 gain but is retro reflective and you need to have your eyes at a similar level as the projector to get the benefit of the higher gain. This would make more lower lumen projectors able to fill a 10ft wide screen with acceptable brightness.

    How far back would you like to sit from the screen if it was going to be 10ft wide?

    EDIT. Something with 2000:1 advertised lumens should fit the bill, but will have to be run in hi lamp mode. This will make the pj noisier and could be an issue.

    If you're using an HTPC then you won't need a scaler, and it's possible that a non HT projector might fit the bill (they are brighter and more affordable). With DLP this can mean slightly less saturated colours and slower colour wheel. Again, a demo will be needed.

    I've not seen this model (it could be kak), but it could fit the bill:

    http://www.ivojo.co.uk/optoma-ep1690.htm

    This would do a 16ft wide screen (but may become too dim after 1000 hours and SDE could be an issue :) ):

    http://www.ivojo.co.uk/mitsubishi-wd2000.htm

    What's your budget?

    Gary
     
  15. mintminty59

    mintminty59
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    55
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    what a very detailed reply , thank you very very much.

    Well what is this door affect you was talking about. I actually took the tape meassure out , and as stated i probbaly did over estimate screen size. Basically i meassure corner to corner and not width which has probably caused all the problems. That was my biggest concern with going back to CRT was the lumenums gap. The room would almost be totally black anyways as id block all windows off.

    Ive had CRT for a few years now the trusty 350 seleco one , and its started to age now and requires maintanance that I just cannot be arsed to do. To much stripping down , and a chance of me breaking it I have vast electronics knowledge. but DLP seemed to be rich in colour. ID be connecting the PC to the projector should I go DLP and using it as a scaler as my GPU has HD built onto it (ATI 1300XP pro) but no HDMI slot , so it have to be RGB I assume or VGA direct.

    Another thing that is bothering me is , i be doing serious fligh simulator playing and a might even BURN a CRT using it with my pc where as a DLP wont have that problem. I was looking at the AE900 Panasonic but that was a tripple LCD and dead pixle worry would always be in back of my mind.

    I was hoping to spend around 500 - 1000 quid as prices are falling sharply and there was a tidy one from DELL for £500 with a screen aswell.

    http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/p...s.aspx/proj_1200mp?c=uk&cs=ukbsdt1&l=en&s=bsd
     
  16. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    14,084
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +3,486
    Screen door effect (SDE) is the gaps between the pixels. Some people notice it more than others and can distract them from the movie. CRT has phosphour which bleeds the edges of adjacent pixels so you don't have any gaps between them. Seating distance is more critical with a digital if you don't want to see the gaps.

    Did you like the LCD picture overall? DLP has better blacks, especially during mixed scenes and I prefer them myself (mirrors rarely if ever fail, and they don't suffer from screen burn). I would think a 10ft wide image would be quite do-able for £1000 from a suitable DLP but getting a demo is the important thing. Using the PC as your source will give you the best image possible and means you don't have to buy a scaler.

    What model was the Dell you saw?

    Ken at Ivojo is very helpful so you could ask him if he has seen the little Optoma or try doing a search for some reviews.

    Gary
     
  17. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    2,783
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Ratings:
    +109
    mintymint, that Dell you linked to, it's cheap but much lower resolution than you originally asked for:

    Native SVGA (800 x 600) resolution, with autosync up to SXGA+ (1400 x 1050) resolution

    The Native figure is the important one. That is the actual number if pixels.

    If you are going for a business projector then choose something with a native resolution of at least 1024x768.

    Regards
     
  18. mintminty59

    mintminty59
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    55
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
  19. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    14,084
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +3,486
    The Optoma has 500 less lumens, but has a higher contrast capability and more resolution, so may be better suited. It doesn't come with a screen though, and I doubt the screen with the Dell will be 10ft wide.

    You could always try projecting onto a white wall and see how big you can go with iot before buying the right size screen (or make your own, which can be quite cheap depending on materials).

    Gary.
     

Share This Page

Loading...