hd wide angle camcorder with external microphone input (wireless if possible)

12harry

Distinguished Member
Not exactly part of the original; Thread, but here for INFO.

was added as EDIT-(10Aug2013)- Just filmed a butterfly (pretty rare these days!) and hoped it would fly-off but it stayed static....when I reviewed the 11-sec. SloMo, I had bees flying about collecting pollen - I was concentrating "Willing", perhaps the butterfly to move I missed the bees - and thery are getting rare too. The shot was hand-held at 800mm, through an upstairs window . . . . . .
Also: I sure would like an interval timer, but for "Fleeting Clouds" every 1min is about right from experience and I can use the wired-remote to take photos - OK these are over 8Mp but even my best speed uses more than four frames; so a "Still" is more memory-efficient.... I presume Terfy's interval timer make single frames, so saving Edit-effort later . . . although in VegasMS you can import a "String of stills" as a movie.
Golf-Shot; tried this with a falling brick - you get 22 thin vertical shots, I used a 212mm brick falling on a can... which shows the brick falling in 11, should have been closer to the can as the brick fell off sideways. Certainly interesting as this could be calibrated for "Time" hence intervals. It is triggered by pressing "REC" after you drop the brick, so not audio.
Terfyn: Post #24, -could you give me the exact list of intervals, pse?
 

michaelruk

Standard Member
Hi all thanks for the advice, just to let you know that the V720 was ordered and is still on order - must be waiting for supplies from Panasonic so nothing to report as yet for how well it meets the requirements.
 

michaelruk

Standard Member
Hi all again, so after receiving my equiment, the Panasonic HCV720 whilst also decideding to go for a Shure wireless microphone and receiver to connect to my external mic input socket I now find that recordings are experiencing a degree of 'noise' if thats what you can describe it as, or at least additional sound on top of the recording.

I have tried adjusting the setting on my reciver from the options of -10db, 0 and mic (current on mic setting). The camcorder when the external mic is connected defaults to 2 channel stereo.

There are also three options on the mic level; auto, set AGC on and set AGC off. The ACG options both have a slider that goes to -30db. I'm finding that the lower I set the slider, the less interferecne noise I can hear but also the mic sound is quiter as well.

I have tried to connect the mic up to my pc and then make a recording through audacity and playback is fine so it must be related to the video recorder when pluggin in the mic jack but I'm still having diffculty pinpointing the exact cause of feedback / noise. I have also had the camcorder conencted to the mains and just battery but still experience the noise. May anybody have any suggestions please?

Thanks in advance.
 

Terfyn

Well-known Member
Are you running the Shure receiver through a mono to stereo jack plug? There have been problems with overloading the mic socket on the Panasonic.

I suggested you went for a wired system and keep it stereo throughout. This may be the cause of the problem. Try with a stereo mic plugged directly into the 720 and see if the noise problem clears.
 

rogs

Well-known Member
Looks to me as if the mic you've linked to has a balanced output into the XLR socket. A quick look at the spec also suggests (it's not that clear..) that the output lowest sensitivity is -19dBV, which will almost certainly overload the Panasonic mic input (shouldn't do it any harm -- it just won't work properly!)

So, instead of connecting a stereo mic into to external mic input, it seems as if you are connecting a balanced mono mic ouput across the two mic inputs, with the 3rd pin as a common. Sorry, that's not going to work...

To connect a balanced mic into an unbalanced input, you will need to ground one side of the mic capsule, and present the mic as an unbalanced input to one (or both) of your mic inputs, with the screen (ground) connected as a return.
And almost certainly you will need to use lowest mic sensitivity setting on the camcorder input, if that -19dBV setting is the lowest output from the Shure....
 

michaelruk

Standard Member
hi rogs,

many thannks for your contribution but I'm also admittedly a little confused by what you have said.

The Shure receiver is model pg185 whch consists of pg185, pg1 and pg 4)

The tranmitter has three options, -10db, 0 and mic. I have left it on the mic mode. When I connect the 3.5m jack to the cam corder the mic options auto default to 2 channel and stereo mode. For the mic level there is then auto, acg on and acg off.

For each ach there is then a level adjuster. I find that the closer to the -db range I get, the noise interference is reduced a bit but I can still hear the buzzing sound when I remove the card and play the media back on a pc.

The noise I hear reminds me of interference when you put your finger tips over the metal contacts of a 3.5mm jack prior to it going in to a speaker hole. It is like a buzzing / droning sound. Are you saying that the mic and receiver are too good for the camcorder input mic (too advanced?)

I apologise for not really understanding things when it comes to mics, sound and audio control levels.
 

rogs

Well-known Member
I haven't been able to find the precise connection details for the XLR output of the PG4 receiver, so I'm just guessing a bit from the basic 'online' spec sheet.
If you have those connection details, supplied with the unit, that would help to confirm or eliminate my suggestions as the possible cause of your problem?...
 

michaelruk

Standard Member
Hi

the manual for the pg4 says

configuration - impedance balanced

audio output level xlr connector: -19dbv (into 600 load)

Impedance XLR connector 200

Does that help?

Thanks
 

michaelruk

Standard Member
The lavalier mic pg 185 says

condenser electrical bias
output impendence 1200
output level -44dbv/pa
signal to noise ratio 70db
output noise 24db (typical a weighted)

Does this also help?
 

rogs

Well-known Member
As I read that spec (and I still can't find any more details, or the actual pin connections) then the output from that mic receiver looks like a balanced line level output. (quite a low level line out, but definitely not mic level!)

Which is not what you need, and also the very reason that units like this are available:

BEACHTEK DXA-2T BALANCED INTERFACE for camcorder, universal, passive

That will convert the balanced audio output into an unbalanced one, suitable for you camcorder mic input, and allow you to adjust the levels.

The cheap way is to simply rewire the lead you have, but it does look as if you are going to need attenuation as well, so that may not be enough on it's own.

As I say, not an uncommon problem...people like Beachtek wouldn't need to make these units if it was!...but they're not cheap.

You might find something cheaper if you hunt around?.....
 

Terfyn

Well-known Member
I hope you get it working.

May I again suggest you look at a wired system. If you want to use a Lavalier mic, the stereo tie clip mic from Yoga (at Maplins) for £30 works fine. I have one running into my 700. You will need an extension lead.
 

michaelruk

Standard Member
Hi both, rogs I'm unsure over what you mean about details of the actual pin connections. I don't have the manuals on me I'm afraid as they are at work. Are we saying that the microphone receiver is too powerful / outputs different sound types for the cam corder? Indeed that pieces of equipment does look rather expensive.

Terfyn / Rogs

are we saying that the issue being experienced is purely due to the wireless mic used as opposed to a fixed wired mic? I realise what you say, however in a classroom environment having a wired conenction is not really feasible both health and safety and also logistially in a room as they will feel like they are attached to the camera at all times. The idea is to be wire free really. Is there anything that Maplins may sell to assist?

Thanks
 

rogs

Well-known Member
. Are we saying that the microphone receiver is too powerful / outputs different sound types for the cam corder?

Basically yes. External mic sockets on consumer camcorders do have their uses, but they are not configured for 'balanced' use, which is how most 'professional' audio equipment is configured

The output from that Shure mic receiver does seem to utilise a balanced output, as one might expect, so connecting to an unbalanced mic input does require a bit of 'friggin' about' .
The simplest way is to modify the connecting lead, so that the XLR connector is rewired to be unbalanced, and the TRS (Tip Ring Sleeve) jack plug is rewired for a mono input to both channels. (Speech is nearly always recorded in mono, especially professionally. Stereo mics are more for 'ambient' type sound recording).

Now the pin connections are probably:

XLR pin 1 - ground (screen/common), pin 2 - 'hot', pin 3 - 'cold'

(see here: XLR connector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

and the TRS jack connections are probably

tip -left channel, ring - right channel, sleeve - ground (screen/ common)

If that is the case, then you could simply try rewiring the lead as follows, and try it.

Remove the XLR case:

- link pins 1 and 3

- connect pin 2 to both of the cores that go to the 'tip' and 'ring' cores of the cable

- leave the screen connected to the sleeve of the jack and at the XLR end, to pins 1 and 3 (now linked of course)

That should give you an unbalanced input to both mic channels.

All that assumes 'standard' wiring.. which is why I was looking for the actual Shure pin connections

This device is probably wired like that... http://www.amazon.co.uk/HosaTech-XVM-101F-XLR3F-Right-Microphone/dp/B000068NZC

The only other problem is that the output level seems a bit high from that mic receiver, to be able to feed directly into a mic input without overloading, and causing clipping.
You might get away with it by removing the AGC, and setting the mic input onto it's lowest sensitivity.

Or add one of these to the lead: http://www.amazon.co.uk/In-Line-Bal...qid=1381867776&sr=8-1&keywords=xlr+attenuator

Again, it should work OK.. although whether you'll get exactly -20dB in an unbalanced configuration you might need to confirm (it's really a balanced attenuator)
Still, at least with Amazon you could send it back!

Fiddly?... yup -- that 's why Beachtek stay in business!:)
 
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michaelruk

Standard Member
Indeed it does all sound rather tricky.

I have already tried the AGC setting as off and then you get a scale function going down to minus 30 db, I have put it at a very low but you still get the buzzing effect on playback on a PC.

Is there no cable that achieves this desired unbalanced effect. I gather from what you are saying that the pro equipment provides a balanced output but the cam corder mic is unbalanced which is why the noise is being created on recording playback?
 

rogs

Well-known Member
As I have indicated throughout my comments, I have made a number of assumptions regarding the actual connections being made with the mic receiver output, the camcorder input, and the connecting cables.

As the various manufacturers do not seem to think these things are important enough to publish, there remains an element of guess work in any comments.
If you do have the details of all these connections, we can make an accurate assessment of what is needed.

If you don't, the guessing game continues...

I have assumed that the cable you already have connects a 'balanced' XLR output to a 'balanced' 3.5 mm jack input.

I have also assumed that the second cable I referred to is wired to transform a 'balanced' XLR into an 'unbalanced' mic input. (The reference to connecting a balanced mic into a 'DV camcorder' type input is the clue here).

But, as I have suggested, without proper connection details, there is an element of 'suck it and see' about the whole business.

(which is why I make up my own cables! :) )
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
This is getting rather confusing . . . OP doesn't appear to have enough techy assistance to sort out connections, levels etc, so it may be better to stick with a simple system.

Have ypou sourced a camcorder, yet?

I thing OP should be able to set up the camcorder without ext mic. That would provide a good starting point. Most classrooms are poor acoustically (( I wonder why, since this is the major means of communication.)). So if OP wants to hear himself then a mic close to "teacher" is needed.
Rogs, Post #6 (was it?) is very useful and should be followed IMHO. A dictaphone is cheap and can be placed in teachers breast-pocket (assuming a Jacket is worn), so the audio remains clear even when moving about [ but it needs to be added at EDIT statge]. To record the children (adults?) the camcorder mic is sufficient - this is not a Hollywood production and extra complication is unnecessary.
As to WA lens - a GoPro will be very wide (so you won't see Teacher!), and that internal mic is v.poor. A consumer camcorder under £400 might have external mic/headphone skts which would provide some improvement if/when OP is able to advance the recording.
Camcorders with viewfinders and WiFi are much more expensive, although potentially more useful (esp if you have a smart-phone), but this adds to the BUdget which could go to a larger battery, extra Memory and some ingenious clamps to position the camcorder. However, before long OP may want to have a bracket made so the position cannot be changed - thus ensuring all recordings are very similar.

Terfyn will confoirm! that I favour the CX410, with mic/hedphone (and optional WiFi).... and have used the budget tie-clip mics on location (see Rogs, #6), however, for OP's proposed situation I believe a SDHC dictaphone in the top pocket is going to be hard to beat. (typically £30). If OP is at all musical, then the Zoom at £70 (Maplin) is "probably worth the extra" .

How are you doing OP?


PS Rogs:
(not applicable to OP's issues, yet)
Making yr own cables[#43] is v.good, -but most folks don't have the skills to make decent job - esp as few connector grips are really up to the task (er, IMHO).
+I have issues also with the screen-quality*, esp. as most on-line descriptions seem to praise their product to the hilt - one wonders why anyone pays for a full reel of VanDam cable (or similar). I'm oft tempted to buy a modest Karoke mc mic and steal the cable,, as I suspect that is the best part - many are XLR terminated which means the mic becomes another "spare" - recently I bought a Kareoke kit for £19 - 2x XLR m/c mics, 2x 5m cables, mixer (with echo control - this ADDS echo; before anyone asks!) and a few RCA leads.... something like a bargain and the amp is beautiful inside with sm components - oh and a mains/12v SMPSU. There really are bargains about if you look...(LIDL store)
* I'm looking for a cheap source (or shortish lengths) of unbalanced mic cable with a good screen and possibly a anto-noise conductive layer . . . this wants to be lightweight to almost match that on those tie-clip mics you referred to (which I bought- Thanks). Incidently it's easy to lose the clip (it slides off!), the clip can be positioned so the mic is upwards or downwards, but I favour glueing them, (avoids loss!) any loss of proximity is of little consequence. However, a word of warning - these are electreys and rely on the host phantom power. My CX410 is OK -but the PalmTrack SDHC recorder can be fussy - as it has a slightly lower phantom voltage.
Note- this is NOT about Phantom Power as from Pro-XLR gear.

Way off topic: Practical folks ONLY_
ALDI are selling a 4-blade kit hacksaw - about £6 - but it is a real beauty - better IMHO than the top Eclipse of old. This has rubber-grip handles and (esp good) wide blade terinations. It adjusts for normal spares, but really looks the biz . . . hope to try it on-site next week (but take my "trusty" just in case, eh?).
ALDI also sell-off closed-cell bright yellow foam - self adhesive, to wrap round garage stuff (er, I think) as a car-protector ( for doors). I've bought some as stock for those instances where it can be used as protection and warning - eg Dolly, legs, etc.
Finally ALDI are selling-off high-temp round foam to grip oven shelves (To reduce touch-burns)- but I think it can be used to deaden audio supports, cable etc, at the price I can still fit some to the oven; but where else can you get experimental stock that cheap "to try"?


ALways worth thinking Left of Field, eh?
+++I notice Aldi are doing a DVD player, with HDMI and Scart out for £22 - if it's any good it's a decent "spare" ifor those of you out and about? I resisted buying as I have two and would like a bargain BlueRay player.
 

michaelruk

Standard Member
Hi 12harry / rogs

(12harry) as you correctly identify my technical knowhow in this field is very limited as would be making up my own cable. The device that I purchased is the Panasonic HCV720 as it had an external mic socket (which is partially working).

rogs - having had another search for more technical spec info I can only find http://www.shure.co.uk/dms/shure/pr...s-user_guide_EN/pg_wireless-user_guide_EN.pdf

The cam corder itself doesn't provide tech spec for its mic input and how this operates and whether audio is balanced or unbalanced etc

May this be of relevance / use in repect to what the pins do
"Positive pressure on microphone diaphragm (or positive voltage to tip of WA302
phone plug) produces positive voltage on pin 2 (with respect to pin 3 of low
impedance output) and the tip of the high impedance 1/4-inch output"

From what I am reading from rogs posts this cable in either 1 metre or 3 metre may work?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/HosaTech-XVM-101F-XLR3F-Right-Microphone/dp/B000068NZC
HosaTech XVM-110F 10ft XLR3F to Right Angle 3.5mm TRS Microphone Cable: Amazon.co.uk: Musical Instruments

Plus you are also suggesting that this may be useful to have more control over the sound levels
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0060GDZTG

I understand that due to the lack of precise technical information, giving an exact and accurate reply of what I will need to solve my problem is tricky due to the nature of what is involved and the parts not stating exactly how they work / what they are geared up for.

I'm hoping that the information along with equipment type, cables used etc and what 'noise' is being created could allow for a reply that may be at least 80-90% likely to prevent the issue currently being experienced? Indeed the suggestion of the cable above combined with the -20db adapter may will be this 'answer'?

Thanks
 

rogs

Well-known Member
The camcorder mic input will be looking for a stereo unbalanced electret mic.

It looks as if the Shure mic receiver has a mono balanced XLR output.

What we have been discussing is how to reconcile those two requirements.

I'm sorry my answers have seemed 'confusing' ... I simply don't know how else to describe the options?...

If you can beg, steal or borrow a DMM for 10 minutes (that's a Digital MultiMeter) it would be very simple to actually check what connections you do have in the cable you already have. Then you would at least know what the actual situation is there.....

If it is wired as a 'straight' pin to pin, then you could a least try the leads from Amazon with some chance of those providing the solution. If they don't, then at least you can return them (as it's Amazon)!

I have to say I'm a bit surprised that the seller you bought the Shure mic from can't offer any assistance..... It is a pretty 'pro' piece of kit, and usually only sold by specialist sellers?.....
 

michaelruk

Standard Member
The Shure receiver was purchased from CPC so I wouldn't expect them to know a great deal about the technicalities, I just know they are a good brand / reputation for producing this type of equipment.

Is the -20db adapter combined with the Amazon cable likely to provide the desired solution.....or is it a case of merely test and see how it goes?

Thanks
 

michaelruk

Standard Member
Also would you be so kind to inform me what tests / settings need to be done if I am able to get hold of a DMM please?

Thanks
 

rogs

Well-known Member
Based on the figures from the rather sparse connection documentation, then yes, the -20dB attenuator may well prove beneficial.

Regarding the tests...... you need to select the lowest 'ohms' (resistance) scale on the meter. It may be a 'continuity' scale, it may simply be a 200 ohm range...

Then, push one meter lead (doesn't matter which one) into each of the XLR socket pins in turn.

Making a note of the pin number, you then place the other lead in contact with each of the 3 jack plug terminals in turn. (That's 'tip' 'ring' 'sleeve' -- so they at least are self descriptive!).

When there is a connection, you will observe a low resistive reading. It may not be exactly zero ohms, bit it should be close. (There may also be a 'bleep' from the meter if you're using a continuity range).

Make a note of which pins are connected to which 'pole' of the jack. It may be that some XLR pins are connected to more than one 'pole' of the jack plug.

You should expect pin 1 of the XLR to be connected to the 'sleeve' of the jack. The others? --- you'll have to tell us!...
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
Rogs I think yr pushing an Elephant uphill.

What I'm unclear about is why OP buys a Sure mic that doesn't have the right connections to fit the camcorder he has round his neck?
(er Typo, line 1 "Receiver (post #47)...presume "Microphone" - eh?).... or have we ventured into wireless mics?

Why has OP bought a Sure mic anyway?
I'm aware of CPC - certainly a good supplier of pro kit.

It would help if you quote part nos - Shure Mic doesn't mean as much as (example) AX123 etc.
That camcorder needs a simple electret mic, or a moderately sensitive moving coil mic. Make sure any gear has the right 3.5mm jack...a mono mic is probably the best solution like those suggested by Rogs...Post #6 was it? Follow the link. Try to avoid adaptors as these can strain gear sockets/wiring , g=far better to get the right cable/termination in the first place. A local TV repairer might make up a new cable-end but buying off the Internet should be cheaper.


OP
What are you recording?
Are you wanting a radio-mic?
How far is this from the camcorder?
ah yes - Budget.

Rogs
I don't think a DMM is likely to fix OPs problem, - as the results will be pretty meaningless. He needs to talk/pay an expert to solve this, it looks like to me.....FWIW. Sometimes the best help is to Stop pushing.

Sorry guys.
 
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