hd wide angle camcorder with external microphone input (wireless if possible)

michaelruk

Standard Member
Hi all, I have searched through the forum but can only find posts related to a few years back.

I am looking to purchase a wide angle and reasonable zoom hd camcorder and external microphone (ideally wireless) to record presentations that will be done in a classroom environment with the individual stood at the front.

I previously used a relavitely low spec 'sports head cam' where the small cylindrical video camera had a wide angle lens and connected to a mini dvr. It also had a microphone input jack. This had a wireless receiver connected into it (using two different jack types convertors to make it into a 3.5mm headphone jack )and then a wireless transmitter for the person doing the presentation. I am trying to replicate this setup but using better quality video and sound recording equipment as this has now broken.

For the interim I have been using a Toshiba entry level camcorder. The sound isn't too bad but the camera lens isn't wide angle.

I am seeking advice on buying a hd camcorder that is higher than entry level specifications but cheaper than £500 and has an external mic input. From doing some research finding a hd camera isn't an issue but finding one with external mic input is proving more difficult.

Also can anybody help me with some information on external wireless microphones. Can camcorders only use wired external mics or would a wireless mic and receiver also work, does it depend on the camera purchased etc as to what will work?

The other option I had thought about was the length of the wire provided on the wired microphone and if necessary could this be extended to be positioned close to the speaker?

Finally the last option was if the internal mic within a mid to higher price camcorder would be powerful enough in a small room environment to pick up voice without the need for an external mic?

Many Thanks in advance for all help and assistance.
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
Welcome.

It helps to give a Budget, that way we can eliminate all the best-kit.

Not sure about "...individual stood at the front..."
-is this the teacher's camera, then . . . why the W/A?
-and- what is the purpose of this vid . . . . and who will edit it?

There are wireless mics at several price-points...the Pro gear (seen on TV) is very expensive and needs a lot of setting-up (but some may argue this improves things!).
Then you can go as low as £20 (which I bought) which just plugs in, BUT has a range limited to 20 yards, with fresh batteries. Sadly I've not found much in the £50 region . . .
Unfortunately I've not used this mic, as the job "melted away".

Good luck.
 

Terfyn

Well-known Member
I have the Azden WM-Pro system which has been replaced by the WMS-Pro at £160. I don't remember mine being so expensive. It is OK but open to interference. Harry is right, you would probably need a theatre based system to get good results. Perhaps the school or college would have one you could borrow.

The simplest and cheapest solution is to get an extension lead for your hand held or Lavalier mic. Maplins (UK) or Radio Shack (USA) will supply all you need. I would use an electret Condenser mic. as it is powered and may be less open to electrical interference.

OR! You could always make 12Harry an offer for his mic.

I noticed on Amazon there are a range of wireless microphones presumably for stage use which could easily be converted for use with a camcorder. Just change the output plug! They have a large receiver box which is probably mains powered (which is why they don't show up under the camera section) but would not affect you in a lecture theatre.

Both Harry's Sony CX410 and my Panasonic HC-V700 (now HC-V720 @ £399) have microphone sockets. The 720 has a 28mm wide angle.
 

michaelruk

Standard Member
Hi both thank you for your comments. I'll explain the situation a little more.

In the education classrooms the teachers are filmed presenting their lessons to the class and so the camera is to be situated ideally in the centre of the room but also if this isn't feasible then it will go in the rear corner instead. The need for the wide angles lens is to capture footage of all the room (or as much of it as possible) rather than the standard lens currently in use.

This is also why an external microphone would be ideal so that it also picks up the teachers voice.

The purpose of the video is purely for the teacher to review footage taken of their lesson, nothing sophisticated or advanced at all, just to review.

Having searched the internet for cameras with external mics and tried to consult the knowledge of more specialist retailers (Jessops over here in the UK) they inform me that not all camcorders have external mic input apart from the higher end ones of the standard consumer market range....again this is just what they tell me. They also said that Panasonic are a very good make, again this may only be their opinion.

When I asked over the external mic possibility they just replied with "sorry we only supply the camcorders and can't give advice on what may work with our products etc and if there are any compatible 3rd party products".

Sadly my knowledge of this area is a little limited hence asking a wider, more knowledgeable audience. I know that you can get wireless external mic's and receivers but didn't know if some will only work with certain types of camcorder of it they will all work it just depends on how well and the cost factor. I'm guessing so long as the camcorder has a 3.5mm jack input then I will need some form of adapter to convert and microphone lead connection in to the one required to fit a camcorder?

When in store the only camcorder with mic input was the Panasonic HC v720 so I don't know if this would be too much for my needs and if there are cheaper ones with mic input or if they are correct in saying only the upper end consumer market have this capability?

Thanks again,
 

Terfyn

Well-known Member
The Pansonic is a very good camera (I would say that) but my 700 would cope with the inside lighting provided the main lighting comes from the front of the lecturer. The 720 has the Wi-Fi connection allowing both limited control of the camera and a view of what the camera sees. (but not sound input!)
For Microphones go to Maplins. I use the Stereo Tie Clip Mic. Product code L36AL and the Stereo Condenser Mic. L92AA, both are made by Yoga and both work well with the camera. The L92AA I use outside with a wind muff.
The thing to bear in mind is that camcorders record sound in Stereo so a mono mic would need an adapter. Both the mics I have mentioned have stereo output and a stereo 3.5mm plug. You would also need a mic stand for the L92AA.

You may also be interested in the 3.5mm stereo extension cable L36BA, 5mtr long. If you were to consider, for example, the Tie Clip Mic. you would have 8mtr of cable between the teacher and the camera.
 
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rogs

Well-known Member
The purpose of the video is purely for the teacher to review footage taken of their lesson, nothing sophisticated or advanced at all, just to review.

As that is the case, it could be that the internal camcorder microphones will pick up enough of the teacher's voice for 'review' purposes, without the need for an external mic?

If the room is reasonably large, then any microphone placed more than a few feet away will tend to record much of the room 'ambient' reverberation (echo) and the end result will tend to sound amateurish. This will be true even if you use a camcorder with an external mic input.
you need to keep the mic close to the source (the teacher) for good quality voice recording.

A lapel mic would seem to be an obvious answer (all the benefits of a 'close' mic), but as you have already discovered, radio mics are not cheap, and you might need a long trailing lead if it is to be directly connected.

There is a another (cheap) option which doesn't require either a camcorder with a mic input, or a radio mic.
Take a look at the suggestions here:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/17855682-post24.html

The downside is that you would need to add the separately recorded audio to the video in an editor, but that is really no where near as scary as it first sounds!:)

As long as you have a starting reference audio 'clapperboard' point, you can synchronise the externally recorded audio, with the audio picked up by the internal camcorder mics.

No expensive radio mics... and no need to limit your camcorder choice to those models with an external mic input!

Just another (cheaper) option.......
 
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michaelruk

Standard Member
Hi again, another camcorder that has been presented to me is the Sony HDRCX410 , it has a slightly wider angled lens than the Panasonic apparently and also has a hanger for attaching an external mic if required?

Terfyn the mic that you mention from Maplins, Stereo Tie Clip Mic. Product code L36AL. The image doesn't show very clearly, is this all one unit or does the main mono / stereo box attach to camcorder and then the mic have a receiver on it to communicate with the box? I'm guessing it is all in one from looking at the price so the mic is connected to the unit which in itself connects to the camcorder?

Thanks
 

michaelruk

Standard Member
Hi Rogs, thank you for your reply. Yes indeed it is a possibility. The interim Toshiba that I currently use which is on the lower end consumer range of camcorders does pick up the sound reasonably well and it certainly isn't quiet. The limitations are over it not being a wide angled lens.

The problem lies when recording lessons outside the classroom where it will also be used and which is when a wireless microphone comes into the equation so avoid any extra noise or disruption.

I was unsure if wireless battery operated receivers and battery mics exist although will this deteriorate the whole sound quality then?
 

rogs

Well-known Member
I was unsure if wireless battery operated receivers and battery mics exist although will this deteriorate the whole sound quality then?

Battery powered radio mic receivers most certainly exist... although they do tend to be expensive. Manufacturers like Sennheiser and Audio Technica include battery powered radio mics withing their range, although they do tend to be priced upwards of £400.

The other problem with the cheaper radio mics is that they tend use the VHF rather than the UHF frequency band. This lower band tends to be more prone to interference.
However, these days even the much better UHF frequency band comes with it's own set of problems. The recent re-allocation of radio mic frequencies to channel 38 has led to two problems. The remaining 'free' channel 70 frequencies tend to be more crowded than they used to be, and you need to be careful about buying apparently cheap radio mics (like Sennheiser G2 series) which can't be re-calibrated to work on channel 38.

All radio mics can suffer from interference, although you should get pretty good results from a UHF mic using legal frequencies. It'll just be expensive - that's the main problem!

Hence my suggestion for using a remote audio recorder instead. Much cheaper and not prone to interference at all.
Downside, as I mentioned, is the requirement to sync and replace the audio usingvideo editing software.

Not difficult(I can do it, so it can't be:)) - even using free software - although it can seem a bit daunting the first time.....
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
Trusted Posters have some good ideas and If I May..?
OP wants to record the classroom session for review purposes, so rogs suggest just use the mic on the camcorder - that will do if the teacher (only) is speaking as most camcorders have AGC (Auto gain).
I wonder that OP is so concerned about the WA setting?...surely he can obtain a WA adaptor and screw that in...they are available from about £50, but a dedicated one from Pana/Sony will be double that - but quite possibly worth it(?).
The Cx410 claims WA is 26.8mm and claims to have a "near-far" audio feature (never used it!) to enhance the sound when zoomed I presume.
+The use of a separate audio recorder(Maplin Zoom ~£70), might solve the audio from the teacher and near-pupils . . . as I'm rather against the idea of long extensions - unless you can install this without any trip-hazards etc. it is likely to be interfered with, by said pupils - and it only needs one.

What's the Budget? . . is another Q that springs to mind (again)...?

The radio mic. I suggested is branded NJS 100 and supplied by Electromarket of Derbyshire,. I paid Az £16 inc. post...it uses 9v and AA batteries and comes with a head-band + the mic wire is light and goes into a belt-clip transmitter. It is VHF (174.5MHz ), so potentially an issue as rogs says . . but it might help and is cheap enough to find out. The S. mics are really pricey - and need quite a bit of setting-up, but then they are the "best tool" for the job. However, for a non-techy I'd suggest look elsewhere..... the risk of wasting a lot of time setting-up, is too great IMHO.

Most of the budget mics I've seen with 3.5mm jacks appear to connect to both L&R channels, but as Terfyn suggests, adaptors are available.



- Then there is the GoPro - now, that is WA !!! - but no zoom as such, and I believe some models do have ext. audio recording - DYOR.
 
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Terfyn

Well-known Member
Terfyn the mic that you mention from Maplins, Stereo Tie Clip Mic. Product code L36AL. The image doesn't show very clearly, is this all one unit or does the main mono / stereo box attach to camcorder and then the mic have a receiver on it to communicate with the box? I'm guessing it is all in one from looking at the price so the mic is connected to the unit which in itself connects to the camcorder?

Thanks

The mic is plugged into the box with a 1mtr long lead. The box has a trouser/shirt clip so is also fixed to the person talking. A 3mtr long lead comes from the box to the camcorder, it is finished with a 3.5mm stereo plug. The box holds a single AA type battery and is fitted with an ON/OFF switch and a STEREO/MONO switch.

I note Harry's concern about loose leads and he has a point. (ClaimsRUS etc.) We normally tape the leads to the floor with a 3" white tape - sorted!!

The use of a stand alone recorder is often the only way to get good sound especially with a band in an auditorium BUT you will need to buy a good video editor. Most editors have audio tracks running in parallel with the video so the recorded audio file is located and aligned with the video.

If it were me (and only me) I would go for the Tie Clip and a long lead taped where it might prove to be a hazard. It is cheap and simple and should give good audio with the video. Wireless is well developed now but it is not cheap and requires a bit of techy knowledge. The wired mic will limit the speaker's movements but this may be an advantage as the speaker will always be in the field of view for the camera. Just a thought!
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
That's well argued, Terfyn, but I think the session is being recorded so the Teacher can improve their performance - so whilst their delivery may be important, they will know almost exactly what they said - and it is the Pupils' response that is needed to be clear. For that reason and the trip-hazard (sorry using tape may suit a venue used by Adults which is a temporary affair (like many film-making clubs who hire village halls) - this is not like that as I understand it - it is a regular classroom and pupils are unlikely to be paying much attention to safety, even if that includes their own.).
- If the teacher's words are important, then they can use a SDHC speech-recorder (cf Dictaphone - these are about £30.). It can be placed in a shirt pocket, or might take a tie-clip mic iinput . . . .I agree the audio can be slipped into the Edit - but have we heard what Editing is going to be done?

What is surprising is that there is no kit already on the Market to perform this relatively simple task - after all I thought schools had gone into the Digital Age when blackboards were thrown out, in favour of white-boards which usually have poor displayed image quality, especially in daylight spilling from the large windows, designed so the pupils can be distracted by whatever happens to be going on, outside.
 
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Terfyn

Well-known Member
I thought schools had gone into the Digital Age when blackboards were thrown out, in favour of white-boards which usually have poor displayed image quality, especially in daylight spilling from the large windows, designed so the pupils can be distracted by whatever happens to be going on, outside.

Days of flying chalk or, worse still, board rubbers. A clip on the wrist with the edge of a ruler! - Happy Days!!!

I carried out a project similar to michaelruk's at my old school. We conducted mock interviews with 6th form leavers, the intention was to give them experience of a serious interview so we rarely "pulled our punches". A video camera was sat on a tripod behind my left ear recording the interviewee. We then chatted about the interview and lastly gave the tape to the lad/lass being interviewed so they could judge for themselves how they performed.
 

michaelruk

Standard Member
Hi all thanks for the many replies which are all very useful.

In response to your question 12harry and as Terfyn may already know or have knowledge of, such things do exist in schools and have become more common over the past years but with a different setup. The scheme is called a 'learning observatory' where as part of continued professional development, especially with newly qualified teachers they record so many of their lessons in the first year to highlight areas of improvement or concern.

There are many companies jumping on to the bandwagon for supporting this. Essentially they offer to come in to a school, fit 3/4 cctv camera (some Pan, Tilt, Zoom but in essence wide angled HD camera combined with at least 2 strategically positioned ceiling mounted microphones in a room all hooked up to a DVR that records using the CCTV camera software. You are really installing CCTV in a classroom but for viewing only by the teacher and nobody else. The cost of such system is around 5/6k per room and so rather expensive which on a schools budget is very hefty.

Over the past two years several companies have established mobile versions of this where they may take just a single CCTV camera but place it on a pod with a mic receiver somehow integrated into this pod where the teacher then has the mic clipped on. This device can be wheeled around but requires a network connection as it is then just a mobile CCTV camera. The videos are uploaded to the companies web-based service for review by a teacher at a later date. The cost of this service is between 2/3k, you are really paying for the web-based video hosting service as the cost of such quality cameras may only be £100 - 200. The service is also in effect also your recorder as you record to the service instead of locally on the device.

More recently companies have taken advantage of the ipod touch and made that mobile but built around / on it and so really you are just using the internal video quality / disadvatnages of an ipod touch but they are promoting it as a way of achieving mobile recording......when surely for what they device would cost you can get a far superior video camera?

Now to my latest thought, as you say 12Harry there is a good possibility that given my Toshiba Camileo picks up good sound quality just from the device itself, I'd expect any camcorder between 300 - 400 to achieve exactly the same, if not better sound quality just from the boundaries of a classroom? This may eliminate the need for the external mic problem.

The thought has also occurred as to whether my existing wireless mic solution would still be adequate when plugged in to a camcorder. My problem is that I don't have any camcorder do to create this test on and its an expensive 400 if it doesn't work.

The wireless receiver currently being used is the following, a bolun WM-603

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Microphone-...0&keywords=bolun+wireless+microphone+receiver

I'm aware quality, signal and capabilities wise this is a million miles away from a £150 - 200 wireless UHF digital receiver and very much the lower end of the scale but it is just another thought for if it will do the job. Obviously I'd prefer the improved quality of digital and it may have its flaws when used outside but it is something to consider as schools don't have a big budget and 400 for camcorder plus around 200 on the receiver soon adds up.
 

Terfyn

Well-known Member
By the look of it the bolun is the cheaper Azden WM. I guess that Azden are marketing the cheaper end as this "bolun" while keeping the Azden name for the semi-pro stuff. In my experience they will work but can be prone to interference - this may not matter in your case as long as the speech is legible.

After reading your post Michael, I have packed my kit and am rushing to the local school to offer my services!! Those fees are not to be sniffed at! Maybe I will buy a decent camera like a Sony. LOL OH Drat they are on holiday. I'll stick with my funny postcard trade on the prom.
 

michaelruk

Standard Member
Hi again Terfyn, where did you purchase your Azden WMS-Pro / WM-Pro System from please as I can only see them on ebay and no UK based sellers either.

Thanks
 

Terfyn

Well-known Member
My Azden is the WM-Pro which is an early model now replaced by the WMS-Pro at a much higher price. I think the "bolun" has replaced it at the lower end. I got mine from Amazon about 15 years ago.
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
The cheap wireless mic should be suitable for proving if the system is viable - the quality improvement by going pro will be noticeable, but it won't cure a flawed set-up (so I believe). So I'd go for the cheapo wireless mic with tie-clip mic for the purpose of recording the teacher's words.

Then there is where the camcorder will be placed at the back of the room, recording the class-actions and the "teacher" audio.

Finally there is the pupil audio recording, and here I suggest a "zoom" recorder (Maplin ~£70), with a stereo input, wired to take two microphone inputs . . . . this needs some soldering and a small case to hold the 3.5mm sockets. Since the pupils will be facing the front, we may conclude that most of the useful conversations will be directed to the teacher, so I propose a couple of electret tie-clip mics attached to the Zoom, and positioned as far apart at the Teacher's Table. Ideally this will be installed by a techy so the microphones are resiliently mounted to reduce table-noises. The use of old mouse-mats might be appropriate.

Of course OP will have to buy a suitable camcorder (with mic-i/p for the wireless receiver), but it can be achieved without a new purchase.....here's how: Remove one of the Teacher-mics and make the pair Mono - so the other channel is available for the teacher. The snag with this is that whichever is louder will control the AGC, although a simple observation of the playback will show if the teacher is significantly louder (and I suspect they will be - so drop the teacher's mic with a series Resistance starting at 2k.ohm).
Remember this is the Radio receiver output . . . . Oh, yes do not use one of those adaptors...3.5mm/1/4inch - these are evil....they will put a strain on the 3.5mm socket (eg in the camera)...far better to use a short microphone lead but you ill need a 1/4inch stereo socket and possibly a second small ali-box.....see price list below....
Note also, this trial is based on the existing Camcorder being used only for rear-room audio and a wide-angle of the Lesson progress and a newly-purchased Recorder which is the only "trial"


That's it, if you want to know how to set-up the balance I post again.
-but as I see it you can try the set-up with
1) Radio mic ~£13 ( see earlier Az link).
2) "Zoom" recorder with SDHC card+Battery (from ~£70, Maplin)
3) A set of electret mics - Az can supply 5pcs for about £6 . . . . these should work OK, but need a small bias voltage provided by the "Zoom" (again, this needs to be checked by a Techy). Only two used, remainder as spares.
4) small ali case and 3.5mm sockets (say £4 + £1 each, or less - but go for stereo 3.5mm sockets, these are likely to be more useful/flexible). . . . This too is the Techy's area.

-As I see it this trial-system should be provable for about £100 - not bad when the alternatives involve a Contract and are somewhat costly.

Good Luck.
 
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michaelruk

Standard Member
Hi Terfyn / Harry12, thanks again for your input. I have just been looking on Insight and see that I can get both models 700 and 720 with a £50 saving if the 700 is purchased.

My next thought was what exactly is the main difference between the two that contributes towards this £50.

The main thing to check first is obviously whether the 700 still has mic input which seems to be the case.

After glancing through the overview and spec, the main difference looks to be the addition of wifi on the 720 and the signidficant digital zoom improvement?

There are also further improvement on the 720 model it seems to

- sensor resolution (15.3mp to 17.52mp)
- effective sensor resolution (Video: 3.55 Mpix - Photo: 3.55 Mpix to Video: 4.14 Mpix - Photo: 4.14 Mpix)
- digital zoom (46x to 1500x)
- microphone operation mode (stereo to surround sound)

I guess the ultimate question is whether you will truly see the benefit of the £50 extra, is it worthwhile or whether the requirements and use won't be sufficient to tell the difference compared to somebody who would fully make use of its true potential.

Do you have experience of both Terfyn?

Thanks
 

Terfyn

Well-known Member
No I do not have experience of the 720 but I would not expect you would see significant difference between the two in terms of picture quality. Slight - Yes, Massive - No.
Are you buying the camera for yourself or for the school? If it is to be limited to the classroom then the 700 will do the job and - yes, it does have a stereo mic input.
BUT if it is for yourself then go for the 720, it has more useful features as well as the Wi-Fi and the better spec. there are features such as time-lapse video and miniature effect. Time Lapse for example gives you the option of recording every few seconds (Sunset) or over a longer period of time. (Blooming) So with all the features of the 700 (Optical Image Stabilisation, Still Photography) I think the £50 is well worth while and you will have a very versatile tool.

The 700 has 26x optical, 46x Intelligent, 64x Digital and 1500x Digital zoom. The first three are useable and the 1500 is fun to play with!

I would like to upgrade to the 720 as I have great ideas for the Wi-Fi control (We have a cock and hen pheasant in our garden I would like to film in close up) and would like to play with the Time Lapse.

As I said before, the 700 for the classroom and the 720 for your own use.

P.S. Go to the Panasonic UK site and download the User Manual for the 720. You can browse through all the features.
 
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michaelruk

Standard Member
Thanks for the extra advice. It did also occur over future proofing and not necessarily over the next few months or so but at a later stage if the wifi capability may actually come in useful for the school if required and then if I'd regret not spending the extra £50.

Its one of those I guess where thinking in advance of future requirements and what it may be used for should come in to the equation as well.

Thanks as always,
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
Terfyn, that "intervalometer" feature looks well worth the extra money - I've always wondered why camera makers are so reluctant to bring up-to-date the "self-timer" - just a few lines of software would do it.

For OP there is the possibility the time-shift feature might make the lessons more interesting.

BTW the CX410 also includes a Slo-Mo feature - difficult to say what frame-rate it is, but about x4 I guess and each file is 11 seconds. Slightly annoyingly it isn't too obvious when the recording starts, such is the effect of the "Buffering" in the display. Sony has provided "Golf-Shot" in many of its camcorders . . . and the CX410 does as well . . . however, I've not used this for real, but understand it is the audio "thwack" that triggers the recording. Maybe I should check where the audio can triggers events: such as crushing a can with a hammer...(?)

EDIT-(10Aug2013)- Just filmed a butterfly (pretty rare these days!) and hoped it would fly-off but it stayed static....when I reviewed the 11-sec. SloMo, I had bees flying about collecting pollen - I was concentrating "Willing", perhaps the butterfly to move I missed the bees - and thery are getting rare too. The shot was hand-held at 800mm, through an upstairs window . . . . . .
Also: I sure would like an interval timer, but for "Fleeting Clouds" every 1min is about right from experience and I can use the wired-remote to take photos - OK these are over 8Mp but even my best speed uses more than four frames; so a "Still" is more memory-efficient.... I presume Terfy's interval timer make single frames, so saving Edit-effort later . . . although in VegasMS you can import a "String of stills" as a movie.

Golf-Shot; tried this with a falling brick - you get 22 thin vertical shots, I used a 212mm brick falling on a can... which shows the brick falling in 11, should have been closer to the can as the brick fell off sideways. Certainly interesting as this could be calibrated for "Time" hence intervals. It is triggered by pressing "REC" after you drop the brick, so not audio.
Terfyn: Post #24, -could you give me the exact list of intervals, pse?
 
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Terfyn

Well-known Member
The Time Lapse has a series of pre-set times 1sec, 10sec, 30sec, 1min, 2min. These seem to be in two sets Sunset and Blooming for faster action and slower actions.
 

MarkE19

Moderator
12harry,

can I suggest that you don't edit old posts to ask a new question. Nobody would be aware of your edit unless they happen to be reading the edited post so the question is likely to go unanswered. At least if you add a new post then the thread is marked as having a new post so members will see it, but an edit does not do this.

Mark.
 

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