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HD - Recording.

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by evolution400, Oct 21, 2005.

  1. evolution400

    evolution400
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    With the launch of SKY HD coming what devices are out or due to come out which will allow the recording of SKY HD in Full HD not SD format ?
    I presume the sky box itself will be recording in HD but that means there will be limited space to store your fav movies etc so what solution is there to archive or store your HD movies ?
    I am aware of HD_DVD and blue Ray but I cant see a recorder coming out soon and reasonably price for quite a while unless somone knows otherwise.
     
  2. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    When Sky+ HD launches there will be no domestic HD recording solutions that will allow recording of Sky+ HD material externally in HD.

    This is because there are currently no external HD recording solutions that will accept analogue component HD and/or HDMI and re-encode them to MPEG2 or MPEG4 for recording on optical disk or tape. Real time MPEG4 encoding is still expensive, and real time HD MPEG2 encoding is only just arriving at consumer price points (in the guide of HDV camcorders)

    In the US and Japan the situation is different because they have D-VHS and BluRay (yep - a first generation BluRay Recorder has been on sale in Japan for a year or two) recorders that contain internal tuners to receive OTA HD (equivalent to HD Freeview) or MPEG2 HD data (as encoded by the broadcaster) from suitable STBs. In the US it is mandated that Cable boxes must be available with Firewire outputs for this purpose, though satellite boxes usually have to be modified to get this facility (sometimes requiring a PC)

    This is unlikely to happen in Europe - so for the time being SD DVD recorders are likely to be the best quality option for archiving HD broadcasts, though if an HDV VCR arrives with analogue component inputs then that would be an option... (This is why the studios don't want HD analogue component outputs...)
     
  3. Rob20

    Rob20
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    April 2003 was when Sony released their 1st Blu-Ray recorder in Japan. Panasonic released their 1st sometime 2004 I believe.
     
  4. Razor

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    Are there not cards in the US which capture HD?
     
  5. scumball

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    So we just need to get a modding company to supply a HD digital standards converted 60Hz Firewire output from the SkyHD box and we're away onto DVHS....cool.
     
  6. stevebrowne

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    In the US, the STB's have got firewire output etc. so relatively easy to capture a stream. The Sky box will have no such thing. Options I guess are: hacked recorded with HDMI input but doesn't act on HDCP, or a component feed (if the full HD signal is played over component on first gen boxes) into a component capture card. I'm sure I had a note of a suitable card somewhere, but can't find it now.
     
  7. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    There are digital TV receiver cards in the US which will receive the OTA 8VSB ATSC (i.e. the US version of our Freeview system though it carries HD as well as SD) in the same way as there are Freeview PCI cards for UK PCs. There are also cards that will receive cable transmissions - accepting the US standard cablecard (a bit like a satellite CAM in Europe) as US HDTVs also do.

    There are also cable boxes with Firewire outputs, which will connect to Firewire inputs on PCs.

    What DON'T exist (at consumer price points) are analogue HD capture cards that will digitise the component HD outputs from a set-top box, and nor are there capture cards with HDMI/DVI inputs.
     
  8. evolution400

    evolution400
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    This is the main reason now putting me off getting SKY HD simply because all the TV eps are going to be the USA HD ones like 24, Lost etc these are all availble for download on the net the main reason I would be wanting SKY HD is for different content or recording my favourite films in HD to watch when I want to watch not when sky decide they want to show them.
    I have a huge collection of DVDs and can't wait to buy or record all my fav films in HD format to start collecting again...........its a circle VHS > DVD > HD-DVD but still I will buy them all again :)
    I think its ridiculous that they are launching HD with no recording solution(except limited sky + capacity) or new format to buy your films on so for that point alone I am staying with SD until one of the above is released.
     
  9. dan1979

    dan1979
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    There will be PC writers pretty early on (Nero has already made software for Blu-Ray discs) but with all the copyright stuff going on not sure what you'll actually be able to put on them video-wise.
     
  10. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    In the UK - a lot of standard def video... In the US they'll be able to record off-air HD (via an OTA or cable tuner or firewire input) to HD-DVD and BluRay and get a lot more material on a single disc.
     
  11. nigelbb

    nigelbb
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    No laserdisc?
     
  12. evolution400

    evolution400
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    :) no mate never got one of those I also skipped the VCDs aswell :)
     
  13. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    Nope...

    1. Sky are using MPEG4 not MPEG2 and AIUI at the moment D-VHS doesn't support MPEG4 (so any onboard MPEG decoding wouldn't work). I'm not sure if there is an MPEG4 TS via Firewire standard and whether a D-VHS machine would record it.

    2. You'd have to find a way to tee-off the decrypted MPEG4 steam internally. This is possible (well teeing off the decrypted MPEG2 is) on some early Sky receivers, but if they have been clever they will have avoided this. (This isn't the same as being able to tee-off SDI in a Sky receiver - as that is decompressed full-bandwith video like HDMI, not the compressed MPEG2/4 as broadcast) You'd then have to find a way of converting this to a Firewire form. In the US some success has been had using a USB2 link from the receiver to the PC (USB2 is easier to implement than Firewire in low-cost, small circuitry apparently) The PC then re-assembles a TS stream compatible with Firewire devices (without decoding the video) and streams this to a D-VHS or similar.

    3. You wouldn't want an HD 50/60 conversion, well not unless you were spending US$10,000s on the converter (that is how much broadcast converters cost and they aren't yet perfect). You'd throw away most of your HD quality - and you'd have to decode the MPEG4 to baseband, convert and then MPEG4 re-encode, as you can't frame rate convert in the MPEG domain.

    4. However if the D-VHS accepted MPEG4 in the same way it accepts MPEG2 then you wouldn't need to convert it - D-VHS machines will record 50Hz MPEG2 streams as well as 60Hz streams - as the MPEG2 stream itself doesn't change much between refresh rates. (JVC D-VHS machines will record Euro1080 apparently - it is MPEG2 HD at the moment - though you cant' watch their analogue component or HDMI outputs as the on-board MPEG2 HD decoder used for replay is 60Hz only - so you have to take the Firewire output and use that with an external decoder)

    The fundamental limitation is that Sky use MPEG4, and the US solutions are based around MPEG2. If Sky have been clever they will have avoided making MPEG4 decrypted data, or even uncompressed, unencrypted HD video, available on pins on their receiver motherboard.
     
  14. mobily

    mobily
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    Hey all,

    With the advent of HDTV will current recorders support the increased definition or will special HDTV recorders be introduced?

    Cheers :)
     
  15. Kramer

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    SkyHD will, of course, have on-board HD recording like Sky+. HDCP may be a problem with dedicated HD recorders.

    :smoke:
     
  16. Kramer

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    Duplicate threads merged.

    :smoke:
     
  17. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    Current VCRs and DVD recorders are just standard def, so will only record the standard def output of a high def receiver, so you won't get an HD recording.

    Sky+HD will incorporate a Sky+ style recorder so you will be able to timeshift HD Sky broadcasts, but you won't be able to archive them in HD, just SD.
     
  18. sekrof

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    Stephen, when you say 'archive' I assume you mean 'record to an external source', not 'record HD on the Sky+HD box' ?

    Or are you saying the the Sky+HD box will only store HD at SD quality ???
     
  19. Kalos Geros

    Kalos Geros
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    I believe the first explanation is the true one...what would be a point of watching time shift on a HD machine in SD quality...???? You will be able to record to external sources only in SD as well as watch downconverted to SD on a non-HD display like PAL CRT (although this beats the purpose of having HD receiver, the same content is available in SD on regular Sky anyway...maybe just to be used with another telly in your bedroom)...
     
  20. bad robot

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    Its all interesting reading, my main worry is just how good this MPEG4 will actually look and sorry to mr murdock but if they end up running low bandwidth channels full of compression people are not going to be over impressed.

    Im sure though the SkyHD system will be pretty good and offer all of what Sky+ does but in the HD digital domain.

    I can see a limited mpeg4 recording export feature being one of the possibilities though for portable devices.
     
  21. Kalos Geros

    Kalos Geros
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    Well, check here: DIVX HD to see what can be done with a 4mbps DivX in HD resolution...it's way better than Microsoft's WMVHD...
     
  22. bad robot

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    Cheers though I already have plenty of HD material and know the possibilities, still doesnt convince me untill i see that Sky wont over compress as more channels / services become available.

    Euro 1080i still has compression problems imo so really its not going to be any better than the current MPEG2 being used.

    Fingers crossed anyways.
     

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