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"HD Ready" logo allows more wool over consumers eyes?

Discussion in 'TVs' started by loz, Mar 27, 2005.

  1. loz

    loz
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    Sorry if this has been gone over before but I couldn't see it.

    I note from the "HD Ready" logo spec

    A. The minimum native resolution of the display (e.g. LCD, PDP) or display engine (e.g. DLP) is 720 physical lines in wide aspect ratio.
    B. HD capable inputs accept the following HD video formats:
    o 1280x720 @ 50 and 60Hz progressive (“720p”), and
    o 1920x1080 @ 50 and 60Hz interlaced (“1080i”)

    notice that B says "accept" the following resolution, not "display" it.
    notice A only specifies the resolution in terms of lines.

    The consequence is that 1024x720 plasma panels are now emerging that are being badged with the "HD ready" logo. So what happened to the other 256 pixels? Aren't they important to achieving HD resolution then?

    Surely this is just going to confuse customers more.
    Why didn't they specify a minimum display resolution in both directions? To pander to plasma manufacturers?
     
  2. IBORGUK

    IBORGUK
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    Interesting point, especially as I have such a 1024 x 768 pixel resolution, "HD Ready" display i.e. the Pioneer 435 XDE.

    Also I believe the new upcoming Hitachi pdxx7200 panels will again be 1024 x 1024.
     
  3. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Digital displays are fixed resolution, it would be impossible for them to be able to display 720P and 1080i.
     
  4. loz

    loz
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    But possible for them to display one of them without any up or down scaling, no?

    Whereas these plasmas can do neither 1280x720 or 1920x1080
     
  5. IBORGUK

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    Jeff,

    Not sure I understand this in the context of the Pioneer 435XDE

    The panel indicates HD ready, is 1024 x 768 resolution and the HDMI input seems to support 720p and 1080i ?

    http://www.service.pioneer-eur.com/peeservice/RegistrInstrMan.nsf/(CountDownloadinInstructionManuals3)?openagent&ID=A38635D129BC4F13C1256F2E002B1FCD&Attachment=ARE1391_PDP-505XDE.pdf

    Thanks
     
  6. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
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    I think most sane people will let the dust settle on HDTV before parting with their hard-earned cash. Too many loose ends at the moment. The "MkII Model" always has more bells and whistles, and will be worth waiting for.
     
  7. Jeff

    Jeff
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    As long as they clearly show the native resolution as well as the HD Ready bit I don't see a problem.
     
  8. IBORGUK

    IBORGUK
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    That doesn't seem to answer my question ;(

    First "impossible" and now OK ?

    Maybe I'm being a stupid newbie but I've missed something here.....
     
  9. loz

    loz
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    My point was that the "HD Ready" logo appears to let them get away with panels that are not HD native resolution.

    Hence my point of it confusing customers.

    How many panels will be sold this year in the run up to Sky HD for example purely on the basis of "HD Ready" claims yet are not HD resolution?
     
  10. Jeff

    Jeff
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    The Pioneer 435XDE can't display 720p or 1080i, it can accept these resolutions and display them as 1024 x 768.
     
  11. IBORGUK

    IBORGUK
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    OK thanks, that's what I hoped. Oh well maybe I just except some loss of quality on Eastenders then ;)
     
  12. Rimmer

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    True, but how many panels are HD native resolution? Most of the new LCD panels are 1366 x 768 resolution, which does not correspond to either HD resolution. By only specifying the vertical resolution in the HD logo it allows manufacturers of 1024 x 768 plasmas to claim HD compliance. Agreed, 1024 x 768 is not HD resolution, but if 1024 x 768 was not allowed then only 50" plasmas would be HD Ready.
     
  13. loz

    loz
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    At least a panel of higher resolution like 1366x768 can display the full resolution of 1280x720. A lower one cannot, no matter what they might want you to think with a HD Ready Logo.

    Surely folks buying HD displays with "HD Ready" plastered all over them should be safe in assuming a set actually has HD resolution, not that it is just capable of accepting an HD signal and downscaling it.

    IMHO the HD Ready logo should have been a proper indication of HD resolution regardless of what current display technology is capable of it.

    Seems like they pandered to the manufacturers.
     
  14. Evil Engineer

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    All Johnny Punter cares about is whether it will work with HD Sky and next-gen DVDs etc.

    The exact native resolution of the panel is a secondary issue at best.

    For starters, would there actually be a perceptible difference in Picture Quality between 1366x768, 1280x720 and 1024x768 at a typical 3m viewing distance ?

    All of them are still going to look a hell of a lot better than a SD panel.

    Ruling out 1024x768 panels would effectively lump the 43" Pioneers in with Sony's current efforts as non-compliant.

    A bit harsh on Pioneer when they were the first to offer HDMI in the UK.

    If you want to take the argument to it's logical conclusion I would say that the only "HD ready" panel available in the UK is the Sharp 45GD1 as this is only one capable of displaying 1080i without downscaling.

    Id say the scheme is a fair compromise and it's a hell of lot better than nothing !
     
  15. Tejstar

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    I was planning on buying a new HD Viera, due to be released in a few months, but after careful thought decided to give it a bit of time and see what HD sources are forthcoming before reaching for the wallet.
     
  16. loz

    loz
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    If that were the case why bother with HD at all?

    If you are going to suggest that there's no difference between 1280 and 1024, then is there any difference between 720 and 576? The reduction is exactly the same % wise.

    So why not stick HD on panels only capable of displaying 576p too? The loss is no different.

    Pointless.
     
  17. Evil Engineer

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    The exact resolution of a panel is not a definitive guide to it's picture quality.

    Id be prepared to wager that you would be hard pushed to say whether a panel was 1024*768 or 1280*720 when viewed at a typical 3m viewing distance.

    You seem to be mixing comparisions of horizontal resolution (1280 vs 1024) with comparisions of the vertical resolution (720 vs 576). As you get close up to a display I've always found that the structure of the lines that make up the picture is much more noticable than the individual pixels making up each line.

    This is probably why vertical resolution is specified in the standard while the horizontal resolution isn't.

    There aren't any panels capable of only showing 576p. All SD plasmas are 852*480 (eg. NTSC in 16:9) and have to downscale SD PAL to fit.

    Ruling out 1024*768 panels rules out the vast majority of 42" plasmas as HD ready. This is clearly not sensible !
     
  18. loz

    loz
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    well there's no shortage of LCDs, or projectors capable of 1280x720.

    Surely ruling what is HD or not is a matter of specifications, not what is available. If a Plasma can't display full HD resolutions, then it shouldn't be classified as HD. Plain and simple to me.
     
  19. Jeff

    Jeff
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    and very few of them are HD Ready.
     
  20. loz

    loz
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    :confused: There's plenty of HD Ready LCDs around now.
     
  21. Ross-P

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    My opinion is to forget about HD altogether for a couple of years and buy a budget plasma for now. Wait until the dust settles then buy a HD plasma in 2-3 years when the prices have ( hopefully! ) gone down.
     
  22. Nick_UK

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    ... and probably then you'll get a TV with more than one HDMI input and other refinements. Having been suckered in the past to rush out and buy the latest technology the moment it came out, I know that the first model out is always rather primitive compared to what follows.
     
  23. Evil Engineer

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    There's always going to be something better available (for less money) six or twelve months down the line.

    You've just got to ask yourself, "do I want it?", "can I afford it?" and "will it last five years until it's upgrade time again?".

    If the answers are all yes, you might as well get it now and enjoy it now. You can always buy a HDMI switcher or a new AV amp further down the line when you've got more than one source that needs it.

    LCD/Plasma is well past the "moment it came out" stage. Most of them are 7th or 8th generation panels now. The only new bit is the spec for european HD broardcasting and HDMI/DVI(HDCP). The HD Ready logo is meant to address these issues so that we can all be confident that the "dust has settled" and that it's safe to rush out and buy a shiny new telly.

    BTW: If Scart sockets are anything to go by, it'll take bloody years for screens with two or three HDMI sockets to become common place !
     
  24. johndon

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    Surely any fixed resolution panel is going to be a compromise at some point.

    If you take the Sharp LCD with it's 1920*1080 resolution and feed it a 720p signal, it's going to have to upscale the picture for display. It'll still probably look fantastic but won't be displaying a picture that matches it's native resolution.

    Same if you go for a panel with a 720 vertical resolution - it's going to have to scale a 1080 picture down.

    So, unless you are going to be always feeding a panel a signal that exactly matches its native resolution scaling is inevitable so it makes those panels no more HD ready that any of the existing ones with 1024*768 resolution.

    John
     
  25. MikeK

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    The point is though that the 1024x768 models can't do either HD resolution natively.

    The "HD ready" logo spec states that the panel must be able to do 720 pixels vertically, in wide aspect mode - but then fails to mention exactly what they mean by "wide aspect mode".
    PS - the use of "non square pixel" displays to force a 1024x768 display into 16:9 aspect ratio, isn't the same as using a true 16:9 panel

    In the generally accepted understanding, it means 16:9, which would mean 1280 pixels horizontally - so a 1024x768 panel can't do it.
    If this goes on, someone could bring out a 4:3 aspect 960x720 panel and call it "HD ready", when it clearly isn't (by using non-square pixels to stretch the 4:3 pixel grid into physical 16:9 shape)

    Whether it's fair to say "he won't notice the difference" is irrelevant IMO - would anyone like to buy a laptop which stated it was XGA and then find out that, well actually errmmm - it's not, it's SVGA, but the manufacturer says it'll accept an XGA signal and you'll never notice the difference anyway!

    IMO, as some others have said, it smacks of a fudge to allow manufacturers to foist current stock onto possibly unsuspecting customers - and as such, it's a bit naughty!!!


    Actually, thinking about it, there's appears to be nothing to stop a manufacturer bringing out a TV with say a 640(H) x 720(V) resolution, using a 2:1 pixel size ratio (so the screen is 16:9 in shape) and stamping the HD READY" logo onto it!! Clearly it's not really HD capable, but the logo would suggest it is!
     
  26. sanderton

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    I wonder if the "native resolution" thing could turn out to be irrelevant. Will Sky be broadcasting HD with an overscan? as CRT HD sets are available, I would think so. If so, you don't want all 1280 x 720 pixels displayed so even a "native resolution" display will upscale in order to trim off the overscan areas?
     
  27. NicolasB

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    Given that there are two different HD resolutions, nothing except a CRT projector can possibly support them both natively, so it doesn't make sense to get too hung up about native resolution. If the screen's resolution is higher than what's needed, that's fine. But I agree that, if the image has to be downscaled at all, this ought not to be classed as "HD Ready". Yes, this would mean that all 42" and 43" plasmas would be classed as not HD Ready. That would be a good thing IMNSHO.

    It's also true that a native 1920x1080 display upscaling 720p is likely (other things being equal) to lose far less image quality than you would lose downscaling 1080i to 1280x720 or thereabouts. Downscaling loses information and detail - upscaling doesn't have to (much).

    What's more, to downscale 1080i you first have to deinterlace it before scaling. If the original source material is not progressive then this is likely to introduce deinterlacing artefacts. By contrast, to upscale 720p to 1920x1080 involves a scaling operation only, there's no deinterlacing involved. And a 1920x1080 display that displays 1080i sensibly (i.e. with true 1:1 pixel-mapping and no deinterlacing) does it perfectly.
     
  28. Dutch

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    Good point, Nicolas. I wonder when we'll gey to see proper 1366x768 resolution 42/43" plasmas. Maybe the same time we'll see 1980x1080 res 50" plasmas.

    Steve
     

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