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HD-DVD v BluRay Analysis

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Rasczak, Jul 1, 2004.

  1. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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  2. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    A short article here that includes a few comments here from Andrew Wyllie (NEC) who are backing the HD-DVD format (as opposed to BluRay) with Toshiba:
    http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.asp?RelatedID=5794

    The article is interesting but he is wrong on a few things he mentions:
    - BluRay disks can now exist without a caddy due to a protective coating much as DVD-RAMs
    - Both Sony and Panasonic have developed blue/red combo lasers for DVD, CD and BR reading

    To be fair though there is just as much false info out about HD-DVD - those who say 15GB (single layer) and 30GB (dual layer) is not enough for long HD movies simply underestimate the compression WMV and MPEG4 can bring to such content.

    It will be interesting to see how the HD-DVD versus BluRay 'war' turns out. IMHO we are unlikely to see an early mass adoption of blue laser products because there is no pressing need for people to upgrade - a 4.7GB DVDR provides sufficient storage for most, an 8.5GB dual layer DVDR even more so. Thus both formats are likely to survive initially - and perhaps this is a bad thing?

    Unlike for recordable DVD, the Hollywood studios will have an impact as they will start releasing high definition content on either HD-DVD or BR-ROM. So early adopters are in the position where they could, potentially, buy a failed product. In short a true return to the days of Betamax versus VHS - only worse as it is worldwide failure the new format is looking at :(
     
  3. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    I noticed his comments were incorrect, however even correcting his comments there are still some issues:

    1) A coating added to the discs to avoid a cartridge will increase production costs and dust will still cause unreliable playback, even though the dust can be removed without fear of scratching due to the coating, that isn't much comfort when you are half way through a film that is interrupted, or worse still, a recording failed due to dust.

    While there are lasers developed for reading both DVD and BluRay, they are more complicated due to having to support widely differing NA and this pushes up the expense, and is stated in the article to be fair to the author.

    This new format war is much more serious than that of DVD- or + as it affects playback as well as recording, it is much more akin the BETA v VHS war than + or – ever was.

    Regards

    Philip
     
  4. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    True - but exactly the same argument was made before caddyless DVD-RAM appeared and most of those arguments proved to be unfounded. Certainly everyone I spoken to seems quite confident that caddyless BluRay will be both reliable and sufficiently durable.

    What he is refering to is the current set-top BluRay recorders, such as the E700, which use dual lasers which pushes up the cost (and significantly the size). However dual and tri-wavelength laser combos will be forthcoming in the next 18-36 months such as that being developed by Sony:
    http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.asp?RelatedID=5472
    So that is only a short term problem for BluRay.

    HD-DVD of course has it's own hardware issues: the development of MPEG4/WMV chipsets for example. HD-DVD uses these 'new' codecs for HD content from day1 whereas BluRay can be MPEG2 HD without any bitrate/resolution limitations. Now whilst there are already lots of MPEG4 chipsets about they are nowhere no as refined as MPEG2. And processor heavy WMV has someway to go before it can integrate into basic set-tops. As with the optical head on BluRay this will only be a short-term problem for HD-DVD.

    As I alluded to in my post ;)
     
  5. MartinImber

    MartinImber
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    I hope Sony can win this one, Beta is better than Vhs - but now this is irrelevant with PVRs and DVD Recorders.

    The bigger capacity is essential
     
  6. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    I tend to agree - 25GB/50GB disks are fairly future proof. They offer HD content at extended running times (over 4hrs) using tried and tested compression. From a home recording route they also offer all VR mode features which is what we value on our current DVD recorders.

    Still Toshiba has made important contributions to the set-top DVD recorder scene and, arguably, currently have the best HDD/DVDR unit on the market. So maybe they will pull something very good out of the hat.
     
  7. Rasczak

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  8. CLH

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    Fine if they price sensibly.

    Currently only the GX3 offers any competetive pricing and even that is compromised.

    The GX7 just can't compete alongside the new wave of DV/HDD combos.

    And their admittedly superb looking HX10 is forecast to cost over a grand.

    This is less important for early adopters but even they won't pay Sony's prices.
     
  9. Rasczak

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    In another step closer to overcoming the BluRay technical problems Philips have now developed a three-in-one optical head:
    http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/10136
    They now join Sony and Panasonic who both have their own three-wavelength optical heads in production/development. Crucially it means all five current DVDR formats are now supported by at least one of the BluRay optical heads (DVD-R is the only DVDR format current supported by all three). HD-DVD hasn't announced any details of it's optical head yet although it is still early days...

    Of course a cynic might argue you could start digging the landfill sites now in preparation for the failures of the Philips OTU!
     
  10. Rob20

    Rob20
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    what are the main differences between both formats, pros and cons? Surely dvd blu-ray is the more likely successor to dvd as it seems to have the largest number of manufacturers backing it?
     
  11. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    It is too early to say yet. Whilst Codecs for HD-DVD have already been specified by the DVD Forum (MPEG2, WMV, MPEG4) there has been no announcement of any copy protection, supported editting or file structures which makes it impossible to decide pros and cons yet. The initial codec for BluRay will be MPEG2 and will use the VR mode found on DVD-RAM/DVD-RW machines.

    Physically BluRay has greater capacity (25GB or 50GB as opposed to HD-DVDs 15GB/30GB). However HD-DVD is potentially going to be more durable and (possibly) cheaper. Again it is too early to comment with any accuracy though.

    Not necessarily - it will the format that Hollywood backs that will determine success as happened in the VHS/Betamax 'format war'.
     
  12. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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  13. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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  14. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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  15. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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  16. Rasczak

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  17. Dutch

    Dutch
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  18. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Just another link to the story Dutch mentioned above about HD-DVD 2005 launch:
    http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/10243

    In the 'other camp' BluRay continues it developments although they are yet to announce the 'core' codec to be used (although MPEG2 recording is almost a certainty). The important developments are:
    - Trying to improve the 36MBit/S recording speed (2x, 4x and 6x media)
    - Development of BR-R
    - A quad-layer BluRay disk (possibly only BR-R) that can hold 100GBs

    For the full story look at:
    http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=10009

    And the BluRay companies have now formed an Association for Promotion and Compliance with the specified standards:
    http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=10019

    Sony have also announced the Playstation 3 will be able to play BluRay disks:
    http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=10010
    http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/10265
    ...of course Microsoft have now announced support for HD-DVD so it is possible the X-Box may support that format (and Gates is now looking to buy Nintendo as well).
     
  19. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    No different to the situation where Microsoft announced support of Mount Rainier on +RW in their OS. This gave the +RW marketing a lot of spin and a lot of crys of +RW would be king and all other DVD recordable formats would die! We all know the story in that Microsoft will now support all the recordable DVD Formats in Longhorn, still years away! Expect the same with the blue based formats, once all the specifications are sorted out a similar announcement will be made by Microsoft for support on any they have currently left out. There will be a resulting fanfare to follow as the marketing departments create a bit of spin.

    Basically support in the OS was always going to happen, either out the box or with a driver (like DVD-RAM/RW is today for UDF), regardless of the format.

    Regards

    Philip
     
  20. Rasczak

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    Indeed Philip - but could Microsoft support be more significant now if they also incorporate it into X Box (and perhaps even Nintendo units)? I guess we'll find out....

    Whatever lets hope for an early end to this particular format war as this one could get 'nasty'.
     
  21. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    A brief report from Pioneer forecasting the blue laser (HD-DVD, BluRay) market will mature in Q2 2006:
    http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/10281
    I wonder if we'll have a BluRay recorder here in the UK by then? :)
     
  22. zoolap

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    The increased quality of future formats is very exciting and I hope something gets established as the standard.

    I don't mind encryption as I buy the movies I like and have no interest in pirate copies.

    My biggest concern is regional coding. I have quite a few region 1 and other titles and it is important I can get around any region protection on whatever hi-def format becomes standard since you can't get some titles in UK.
     
  23. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Zoolap - I entirely agree - this is my concern as well. The US will get High Def DVDs long before we do and so obviously many users here will want to import - lets hope we can and don't end up 'locked out'.
     
  24. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Some BluRay news:

    Full article:
    http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=10111
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/12/blu-ray_rom_spec/
     
  25. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Looks like HD-DVD are going to be cheap and easy to produce which bodes well for media prices (BluRay is current relatively expensive - but of course that will change):

    Full article:
    http://www.dvd-recordable.org/modul...=article&sid=1455&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
     
  26. Rob20

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  27. Rasczak

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    Another BluRay article proposing 'interactive' content and a mix of ROM and RW material on a single disk:

    Potentially this could be quite good IMHO - but could this also have copy protection implementations? If recorders/players need a broadband connection to access all the features then a potentially unbreakable authorisation process could be required which could (perhaps) mean the end of importing titles from the US/Japan/Australia? :rolleyes:

    Full article:
    http://www.dvd-recordable.org/modul...=article&sid=1457&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
     
  28. zoolap

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    If that's the case I'll be :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

    To hell with Hollywood, when there's the movie you can't get here because it's foreign I want to be able to import.
     
  29. AgentCool

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    I know that HD-DVD will offer superior quality playback but I can't see it being as successful as DVD. The DVD format has only just become mainstream so I really don't think the general population will be prepared to dump all their DVD kit and remastered VHS replacement DVDs for a better picture quality. It's also worth noting that a superior picture would probably only be noticable on High Definition displays which, by the time HD-DVD comes out, will only be owned by less than 10% of the population.

    If anything, HD-DVD will be the best way of recording HDTV broadcasts (again, something that will only be taken up by a small percentage of the population) but as a home video format I think it will go the way of laserdisc, a niche market for the home cinema enthusiast. Not until something radically different comes along will the public dump DVD and that surely won't be for a long time yet.

    Still, you never know I could be wrong.
     
  30. Rasczak

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    I don't think there is any question of a sudden and immediate switch to High Def content - it will be a gradual change-over that may take upto 10 years to complete. A number of reasons why it will seep into the market:

    - HD-DVD/BluRay will start to appear on DVD Recorders and games consoles where people will initially use it for high capacity recording.

    - Sky HD will increase knowledge and experience of High Def services and thus will encourage people to buy High Def DVD releases.

    - Plasmas/LCDs and High Def compatible CRTs will continue to drop in price meaning more people will appreciate the differences.

    It will be niche at first but become standard eventually...that's when we start to get Ultra High Def! :D
     

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