HD-DVD: Points to consider

Discussion in 'Movie Forum' started by obiwan, Nov 24, 2002.

  1. obiwan

    obiwan
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    I read an article about new High Definition DVD's that give a much higher quality picture than DVD.

    It said that HD-DVD makes DVD look like VHS!

    Is HD-DVD offer similar/better picture quality as Superbit?
     
  2. CarlB

    CarlB
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    Do you write for a tabloid newspaper, coming up with headlines like that? :D

    You may want to tone the header down - most posters on these boards are well aware of HD-DVD (which is not even officially released yet).

    [Header has been changed by admin]

    The primary aim is the US recordable market which already supports 720p HDTV, though I have no doubt we will eventually see HD-DVD in the pre-recorded market once Hollywood thinks it has milked the current format.

    It's the nature of the beast, technology improves. I have about 400 pre-recorded VHS tapes, 100 Laserdiscs and 400 DVDs. No doubt I will venture into HD-DVD in a few years when the format begins to take hold. I do not envisage it will hit UK shores for a very long time, as the percentage of the market with HDTV capable displays is virtually nil (as we do not support HDTV broadcasting).
     
  3. obiwan

    obiwan
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    Could progressive scan TV be used for HDDVD?
    I just boght a Sony KP44PS2 with DRC-MF, like a line doubler I guess, would this be capable of utilising HDDVD to their full potential?

    Header toned already.:blush:
     
  4. obiwan

    obiwan
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    WOA
    I pan-knickered!!
    Sorry, Forget this thread.

    When you do a search though try hddvd or hd-dvd, you cant use hd dvd as the search engine must have at least 3 letters.

    There is loads of info on this subject right here in this forum.
     
  5. CarlB

    CarlB
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    No problem Obiwan, and yes you can use a plasma for HD-DVD but there is currently no firm commitment to a final resolution for HD-DVD. This means if you have a plasma now there is no guarantee it will be able to drive HD-DVD to the panel at native rate, which gives the best possible picture on the plasma.

    I have a Panasonic plasma which give me native rate for current DVD resolution of 480p, so I am currently very happy. HD-DVD *may* be 720p, or even 1080i, who knows at the moment. No current plasmas support either of those formats at native rate (most are 768 not 720), so some scaling would be involved. When HD-DVD does finally arrive I am sure there will be displays developed to support it natively.

    Glad you found all the other info, we have talked about this a fair bit on these boards...
     
  6. Kevo

    Kevo
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    The public still have to take to it to make it a success, regardless of how good it is. DVD succeeded beacuse of the HUGE difference in quality from VHS and it was very affordable. HD-DVD will have to equally as superior to DVD and as affordable for it to a major success.

    I think DVD will be with us for a LONG TIME.

    Remember LD, SVHS, DVHS, DCC, DAT, Mini-Disc etc. All were superior one way or the other but failed to capture the public's attention (on a world wide scale). They all still have a small market which is the way I reckon HD-DVD will end up.
     
  7. Squirrel God

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    If you think I'm gonna buy all my DVDs again, you're very much mistaken Mr HD-DVD Marketeer :mad: :D

    Firmly sticking with CD too, so there! :)
     
  8. LDR

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    SG,

    I second that motion !!! :D
     
  9. obiwan

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    I have no intention of selling up, Im sure we all have vast DVD collections, personally Im unsure of exactly how many I have but it must be around 200. Im also sure thats a fraction of what some collectors may have.

    Are their any collectable DVD's that we should look out for or even maybe we have without realising it!

    I remember buying Fargo years ago, Big Crime Small Town, remember that. I think I remember that movie being withdrawn soon after it was distribued because the company who owned it sold the rights to the movie. I maybe wrong though. It was then rereleased.

    What about music DVD, Phuture 2000 by someone and Bjork who claimed to have been the first Artist to release music DVD.

    Anyhoo, what was purely going to be a quick answer to the previous post to reach 20 posts and and avatar has again maybe led to the creation of a new, Collectable DVD.
     
  10. eugdog

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    HD DVD are only really suitable for projectors and home cinema. This means that the market may not big enough support the format. This format will probably only be used for block busters like spiderman etc

    DVD may survive for a very long time - look out how CDs are surviving even though they are quite obsolete compared to the latest DVD 5.1 Dolby Digital technology!
     
  11. KBDVD

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    Hi All,

    These are my thoughts on the subject! I just hope that common sense prevails and a format war can be avoided!

    1. IMHO, I believe that High Definition will happen on DVD sooner rather than later, especially now that D-Theatre is a market reality, and certainly well within the life expectancy of any Plasma Screen being purchased now. So the High Definition option warrents careful consideration if you are considering purchasing a Plasma Screen in the near future!

    2. IMHO, anyone who thinks Hollywood won't see HD-DVD as another excellent opportunity to "re-cycle" all of their back catalogue titles again is deluding themselves! ( Some of the studios are already doing this for D-Theatre after all, and they must know that being tape based, it is NEVER going to become a mainstream format!....but their still doing it anyway!) By the way, according to the reviews that I've read, it's supposed to look fantastic on current High Definition Plasma displays!!!

    3. IMHO, HD-DVD will be "marketed" as DVD's "Big Brother" and like "Superbit", will be Film only, with no extras or commentaries, & aimed at the "enthusiast" market. It will probably co-exist "Day & Date" with DVD, (which will still be the format of choice for the masses.) We could even see DTS migrate to being a HD-DVD only sound option in order to attract the DTS advocates? (Hope I'm wrong on this one.)

    I believe that DVD will remain as the mainstream choice for "Joe Public" and once HD-DVD is a reality, DVD will then effectively be marketed on the strength of it's "added value" additional material (extras) and HD-DVD will then be marketed on it's "Reference Quality".

    This would of course represent an ideal situation for the Studios as any true fan of a movie with suitable equipment will want to purchase both versions of any release. I can certainly forsee myself doing exactly that, HD-DVD for optimum quality and DVD for the Documentaries & Commentary tracks etc.

    For owners of HD Plasma displays it will be a "WIN / WIN" situation, but this won't be the case for all those with a VGA resolution screen. For now, as long as Standard DVD images are not "significantly degraded" by their up conversion when using a HD Plasma Panel, I'd recommend this as THE sensible way to purchase a Plasma Screen from now on.

    Best Regards,
    KBDVD.
     
  12. Smurfin

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    And that's what all us laserdisc collectors said....;)
     
  13. CarlB

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    Just have to say I disagree with KBDVD's post, though I think we have gone around the houses on this enough times not to repeat it at length here. To me, scaling is a bad thing, so I disagree with the assertion that buying a current HD plasma is the best option, as a 768 resolution is not native rate for any format, nor will be. HD-DVD will probably be 720p or could be 1080i, but until a panel is released which drives at HD-DVD native rate then it will always be a compromise, and a more expensive compromise than at least buying a VGA panel which is native rate for current DVD. Sure, you will lose more information if you display HD-DVD on the VGA panel, but at least it is *perfect* for R1 DVD now. Current HD panels are perfect for nothing, nor will they ever be so (PC displays excepted).

    If I was buying again now I would buy VGA resolution, spend the extra cash on a great progressive DVD player, and be safe in the knowledge that you have the best display possible for now. When true HD native resoltion panels are released you will always be able to shift the VGA panel to Joe Public, as I do agree with KBDVD that HD-DVD will remain a niche product for a long time in the UK. We do not have the HDTV background of the US, so there is not even the public knowledge of higher definition formats. There is no way that the UK public will buy HDTV capable displays just for HD-DVD - it will never happen without broadcast support and that just doesn't look like it's going to happen anytime soon.
     
  14. Squirrel God

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    Yeah but it's not the same thing because laserdisc was dead before it even begun and never had anything like the share of the market that DVD has.
     
  15. KBDVD

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    Hi CarlB,

    Yeah, wev'e had this conversation before on the Plasma forum, but it's probably a good discussion to have here too, & one that might just save someone a lot of expense! (I actually think it would make a good "sticky" either here or on the Plasma forum!)

    I bet there will be many more people actively engaged in this discussion in 18 months time, including a fair amount of people who will be "outraged" at having "just purchased a 852 x 480 resolution Plasma display only to discover that it will only resolve HD-DVD to about 66% of it's capability!

    By comparison, a current High Definition compatible screen, eg: 1366 x 768 (50") or 1024 x 768 (42") has the capability to extract 100% of the detail from a 720p High Definition image, with, as you quite correctly point out, 48 lines of resolution to spare! Hence your point about the possible continued need for internal up scaling even then.

    As long as they still give an image quality with our present DVD's via their internal scaling / up conversion in the region of 95% to 98%, (In comparison to say 100% from a "Native rate" (for DVD) 852 x 480 unit.) then I for one am happy with this trade off.

    I can of course totally sympathise with your point of view. All of us on these forums are probably "enthusiasts" who naturally want our home systems to be "the best that they can be" I for one have always strived for this, from VHS through Laserdisc, and now into DVD.

    I guess my position on this comes from my now having "adjusted my mind-set" with regards to what I expect & want from DVD & also from the shear expense associated with the purchase of a Plasma Screen. How many people that are currently buying a Plasma Display will want to shell out again in two years time for a High Definition one? ( I know from my own experience of trying to sell my existing NEC 42MP2, that you have to be prepared to "give it away" in order to sell it, and that's before HD-DVD makes 852 x 480 resolution panels distinctly "old hat" and a much less attractive proposition.)

    I used to buy and view DVD's primarily for their picture quality and secondly for the features that they also had in addition to the film. I guess this is now the other way around. The knowledge of the "far superior" image that will be available soon from HD-DVD has made me re-appraise why I now buy DVD's. My belief that DVD & HD-DVD will co-exist and be marketed on their two unique strengths (DVD = extras / HD-DVD = Picture Quality) makes me feel comfortable about still buying good, well featured DVD's with commentaries etc as I don't think that all of these features will form part of the HD-DVD package.

    I firmly believe HD-DVD will be "film only" much like "Superbit" currently is. I know that the reason that Superbit titles are devoid of extras is to max out the bits available for the feature, which (hopefully) won't be the case with HD-DVD, but I still think HD-DVD will be "Film only" for two reasons:

    1. The film companies will then still have a very good way of making people continue to want & buy DVD's for their features.

    2. With images as good as HD-DVD's it will sell itself without the need to bolster it's appeal with extras.

    I have for example, stopped making "bare bones" DVD purchases, especially of the "Superbit" kind, because as good as these titles now look, they will eventually appear to be "2nd division" against HD-DVD, and they will then have nothing left going for them, being neither "the best viewing experience available" nor "endowed with value added features." ( Also, these titles must be the ones that Sony & Columbia Tristar feel exhibit optimal image quality, and therefore, they will probably be amongst the very first HD-DVD titles that these two companies shall choose to release in order to showcase the new format.)

    After VHS, Laserdisc and now DVD, I believe that HD-DVD could possibly be the last format that it will be possible to "Purchase as a solid medium" for films at home, and with it at last being a High Definition format, it will easily outperform all that has gone before. You, I and yes, even Squirrel God ;) will no doubt want it and will eventually be willing to sell off our old DVD's (& Grandma) to get it!

    I too said "never again" when DVD launched, as I had such a large investment in Laserdisc, but the quality of DVD made it impossible to maintain that stance. I was sold on it's "quality" and so it will be again, though probably even more so, with HD-DVD. We should probably all admit this to ourselves right now, "Were Suckers for the best!"

    I dont know why the 768 resolution has been chosen for High Definition plasma's? Especially as 720p as a format long pre-dates these screens, and is quite likely to become the format of choice for HD-DVD. There may be a valid reason why this is the case, anyone know?

    Carl, I know you want "Native Rate" at all costs for HD-DVD, but surely a 2.35:1 image on a 1366 x 768 screen will look at least "AS GOOD" as the same image on an 852 x 480 screen?

    Surely both of these images are compromises as neither are filling the full screen area, so neither are displaying a true "Native Rate" for the image alone? So the 852 x 480 image is therefore only "Native Rate" by the inclusion of cells for the Black Bars?

    Therefore, doesn't it follow that the only way to achieve a "Native Rate" for a 2.35:1 image would be to build a screen in THIS aspect ratio ie: much wider than the agreed 16/9 format of all Widescreen displays?

    Doesn't this then mean that the 1366 x 768 screen will have the image advantage based on it's greatly increased resolution?

    I'm genuinely unsure about this, can anyone help?

    Best Regards,
    KBDVD.
     
  16. CarlB

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    Hi KBDVD,

    You make some great points and I'm not going to argue them as it really is down to everyone to make up their own minds on this issue. I have my standpoint and you have yours, and they both offer benefits to the consumer at this time.

    To anwer your first question, there is still no scaling of a 2.35:1 DVD on my 480p screen. The anamorphic image still consists of 480 vertical lines of resolution, it just that some of those lines are constantly black (i.e. the bars). The image is still displayed at the panel native rate, all R1 anamorphic DVDs are 480p regardless of the aspect ratio.

    When I view PAL DVDs on my 480p display, I *do* see more problems with the picture which are not visible on true 480p R1 discs. In particular I see more posterization on pan shots, and I think this may be because the processing of the display (which is having to scale a PAL disc due to 576p resolution) cannot keep up with the amount of information it is attempting to handle. I never see this error on 480p discs, as I think my Denon 3800 is much better with progressive deinterlacing than the Panasonic screen. And that is my main concern, the fact that not running at native rate builds a reliance upon the panel's processing, but technology is advancing quickly and there will always be DVD players capable of vastly better performance than our panels. By not using native rate I am therefore dependent upon the panel performance which may be 5 years out of date at some point.

    I hope that answers you question, and I do think yours is the correct position for 99% of the people who are perhaps not quite as critical nor keen to have the latest equipment running at maximum performance. As I said, I will replace my screen with an HD-DVD native screen when they are available, but I have no doubt that many people will not choose this route.
     
  17. RedRose

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    Hi KBDVD, I guess it's because these things were developed originally as computer-based displays for stock exchanges, airports, TV studios etc. The XVGA standard in computer graphics is 1024x768 pixels. It seems odd, however, that a hidef 42" is 1024x768 but a 50" hidef is 1366x768. If they're both the same aspect ratio (which they are) then the 42 must have rectangular pixels. Is this right?
     
  18. KBDVD

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    Hi RedRose,

    Yes, thinking about it your probably quite correct about the PC's XVGA resolution being the catalist for the 768p format!

    If this is indeed the case, it probably increases the likelyhood that once HD-DVD becomes a market reality, true Native Rate 720p resolution panels (assuming 720p is the agreed format) will be forthcoming! (Good news for Carl!)

    Mind you, what is the agreed and adopted format for HDTV in the USA and Japan? If this is 720p and not 1080i, this has obviously not been enough to stimulate the development of true 720p panels, so it does make me wonder if the same will be true of HD-DVD? Or again, maybe some other factors apply that make true Native Rate 720p panels unviable? I'm not aware of any though.

    Yes, (again) I think the 1024 x 768 panels must exhibit cells that are more rectangular in relation to those employed on a 1366 x 768 screen of the same aspect ratio, there can be no other answer.....can there?

    Best Regards,
    KBDVD.
     
  19. -=Kamikaze=-

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    Interested in pre-recorded HD-DVD's? Well since the only specs for recordable HD-DVD's have been agreed upon now is the time to try and influence the specs for pre-recorded ones. So go on ahead and sign this petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/cehddvd/petition.html

    Who knows, maybe if we get enough signatures we can convince those greedy bastards to give us a better product.
     
  20. Doomlord_uk

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    I think one reason DVD took off in this country was that you could import R1 releases from the US before the film was even released at the cinema in this country. And computers also offered a broad installed base of DVD-ROM drives quite rapidly. Many computers were sold on their 'multimedia' DVD capabilities.

    As for HD-DVD - well, whatever it ends up like it will likely find hardware support fairly quickly much like DVD-A and SACD before. I doubt very much that there would be two versions - with a second for features - they'll just bundle both in one box, or make the HD-DVD backwards compatible with a dual-layer design like SACD. The real limitation on this tech in the country is the fatcat "£2bn BBC. They rob us blind for the right to watch corrie and watchdog then don't invest in world leading tech for home entertainment. That is wrong - but that's why digital TV is not HDTV or DD. So all we have is sub-VGA interlaced with Dolby Stereo. Go Britain!!
     
  21. -=Kamikaze=-

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    The problem of late or lacking acceptance of true next generation television broadcast standards is a problem in the whole of Europe, and in fact the whole world except USA and Japan.

    So I think you mean go Europe! Chances are third world countries will get HDTV before we get it here in Europe and ours will of coarse be very different from the American so the Hardware won’t be compatible and all that it implies.
     
  22. meva

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    What's the betting that George Lucas decides to release the original Star Wars trilogy exclusively on HD-DVD.;)
     
  23. Dutch

    Dutch
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    You can add Australia to the list of countries broadcasting in HiDef.They are using the US ATSC 1080i system, although modified to work in a 50 Hz country. This should bode well for introduction in Europe - we can just buy a proven system without 10 years of testing by the BBC et al :) I think you're right that third World countries will have HDTV before Europe. Countries such as Mexico and Brazil are also considering the ATSC system. HD-DVD and D-VHS D-Theater will be our only chance of seeing HiDef images in Europe this side of 2010 :mad:

    Steve
     
  24. spidermanalf

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    Lets face it, we are all geeks who LOVE films and AV stuff, so we will carry on buying the new formats, and the new TVs while people look at us strangely, while talking about pixels and resolution etc and getting giddy over remore controls and bits of wire!!

    Even if we do end up with Clockwork Orange on 5 different formats!!!!
     
  25. Timmy B

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    Is plasma that big in America?

    I thought they were more into HDTV rear projection sets? The US toshiba rpj sets have a stunnign spec.

    I think Toshiba UK will update the who8 (and its latter clones cosmetic differences) with a HDTV range of rear projectors. I still think rear projectors are very underated.
     
  26. Blighty_Boy

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    Except we get corrie for free cos it on ITV the license only Pays for BBC 1 2 Radio1/2~World service Digital BBC TV/Radio


    :) substitute corrie for eastenders :D
     
  27. bluebaron

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    Try explaining to the TV detector boys that you only watch ITV so you don't need a TV (BBC) license ;)
     
  28. Miles@9

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    my plasmas better than yours

    52" of throbbing Pioneer

    With a dudley doughnut sponge gasket!
     
  29. rauer

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    Just one thought to consider regarding this above mentioned native rate & scaling thingy. Even if your NTSC DVD video material has 480 horizontal lines and your plasma (or whatever) display has the same 480 lines, there's often still some scaling. Why? Because many DVD players crop a few pixel rows of the image in both vertical and horizontal direction.

    See for example these player reviews by the Secrets Boys. More than half of the tested lot has some cropping.

    I personally have seen the importance of non-scaling with my gear. I have the Sanyo PLV-Z1 projector with 540 or 544 horizontal lines (that varies in specs). I've made a video-CD with PAL resolution 576 x 704 test images. In one test image there's an area of horizontal parallel black and white lines. As I go to the service menu of the projector and adjust the vertical overscan the mentioned area looks grey and soft until I hit the sweet pot and BINGO: no vertical scaling. A perfectly clear stripe pattern.
     

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