HD-DVD Conundrum ?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by AlfaKhan, Apr 24, 2007.

  1. AlfaKhan

    AlfaKhan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    250
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Cascais, Portugal
    Ratings:
    +6
    Hi Guys,

    Once again I am considering updating my Home Cinema and, as usual, I return to these forums after some time away. I always had excellent references and advices from this source and I hope to get some great insights again.

    I am starting to consider a HD (HD-DVD or BR) player for my system but something bugs me.

    The two only set-ups I put my eyes on seemed to show unacceptable playback quality, whenever fast action scenes were displayed.

    I saw the two systems in two different stores. On the first one an huge LG or Pionner plasma display (can't remember...) was being fed by a Samsung BDP1000 Blue-Ray player.

    On the other one, the set up was a gigantic rear-projection Sony screen fed by an HD-DVD Toshiba HD-E1 player.

    In both accounts the fast action scenes seemed to play like frames were dropped or missing. It was subtle but quite noticeable for an enthusiast like me.

    The second set-up was rigged to display 1080i via HDMI. I believe that was also the case in the first store. A representative at that store said the display was the probable cause for the problem and I accepted that.

    But then it happened again on a totally different set-up. On this occasion the representative mumbled something about "...today display systems are still not quite up to task..." and then quietly evaporated while I was still appraising the system.

    What gives...?!?!

    Are these new HD formats limited somehow...? Or was it just a coincidence...?

    Because, quite frankly, I am already pretty much sited and glued to the fence here, on account of the possibility of dual-system players being just around the corner.

    I will definitely not jump from the fence if, in order to have more definition, I must compromise the great playback quality I already enjoy with my Toshiba SD-900E feeding a Sony VPL-HS50 projector via a component connection...:confused:

    WK
     
  2. ashepherd

    ashepherd
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    44
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +1

    According to Which magazine this is a problem with all current HD/BR players. It seems to be because they output 60Hz rather then the 50Hz that we are used to in Europe. In order to do this with film material shot at 24fps they have to insert additional frames in an unequal fashion.

    What I am not clear about is whether European spec TVs are any worse at dealing with this than US ones, or whether what we are complaining about is something that the Americans have been putting up with for years.

    I am also not sure to what extent this is a function of the player, potentially fixed with new firmware, and to what extent it is a a function of the way the disc is recorded. I have seen conflicting posts on this point. Doubtless an expert can clarify this for us.
     
  3. AlfaKhan

    AlfaKhan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    250
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Cascais, Portugal
    Ratings:
    +6
    Ah...so I was not seeing "gremlins" where there were none...:rolleyes:

    Hmmm...I thought this was a problem solved long ago...Really bad for it to show its ugly head again on such novel, "from-scratch" formats.

    What is puzzling to me also is that, going through forums like this one, it seems to not bother people that much...It seldom gets mentioned. Maybe it only afflicts certain persons, like the old dreaded DLP "rainbows".

    To me, it felt like it will give me an headache if I try to see a long, fast-action packed scene like, say, the opening sequence from the last 007 feature.

    Rats...:mad:

    WK
     
  4. Ettepet

    Ettepet
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    739
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Ratings:
    +19
    It is mentioned often enough, people in Europe don't know the terminology though. Look for "3:2", "cadence" and "judder".

    With HD-DVD and Blu-Ray judder is avoidable if the display is able to show (or deduce) the original 1080p24 content from the disc.
     
  5. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,152
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,276
    In the US (on DVD) they have to live with the 'issue' of 3:2 which is probably you 'missing frames', the frames are missing but are just not smooth hence the term hudder. They have always had it for film based material.

    In Europe (on DVD) they have to live with the issue of 'speed up' of audio which bugs as many people as the above but has smooth film transfer.

    HD DVD and BD has no speed up issues anywhere in the world but do have 3:2 judder HOWEVER if it bothers you some players, video processors and displays have solutions for completely removing the 3:2 issue by showing the film in multiples of 24 which is what it was recorded at originally, see Ettepets post. [They is no easy way to correct for speed up however]. This retains complete compatibility with existing kit but also gives options for solving the 'classic two problems'.

    There is nothing wrong with a 1080i output. It is my prefered output method but matching kit is important.
     
  6. ashepherd

    ashepherd
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    44
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +1
    Is the 3:2 pulldown encoded on the disc in some way or is it purely a function of the player? If the latter, then there is surely no reason why EU models should not be programmed to offer the 50Hz speed up option, which is at least what most of us are used to. I am not sure how current TVs would react to a 48Hz signal - analogue computer monitors used to be very tolerant of odd sync frequencies, but I am not so sure about digital TVs, which seem to be more fussy. Unfortunately the published specifications rarely give such information.
    Incidently I noticed that some US TVs include 3:2 pulldown in their specifications - what inputs would they need to use that for?
     
  7. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Messages:
    10,351
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Ratings:
    +1,312
    It's the latter, the movies are stored at 1080p/24 on the disc, so when we have 24p TVs, players that send this natively will be possible.

    As for the 50hz speed up, that's probably no problem getting the video to play - but the audio part would be tricky. You also have the problem of interactive features possibly needing re-timed.

    By that they mean "3:2 pulldown *detection*", and they would use it on any sort of Interlaced 60hz Standard Def input signal to reconstruct (comparatively) jaggy-free film frames. The best HDTVs will use the same process on 1080i HD too.
     
  8. ashepherd

    ashepherd
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    44
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +1
    Thank you.

    Why did we not have these problems with SD DVDs? Was the 50Hz speed-up built into the region coding?
     
  9. CarlB

    CarlB
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2001
    Messages:
    1,358
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Cambridgeshire
    Ratings:
    +280
    As mentioned earlier in this thread, we did always have this problem with R1 DVD. However, R2 transfers run at 25fps, so have been sped up by 1fps from the original film source. This allows a 50Hz display (i.e. UK standard) to avoid the judder experienced in the US when trying to conform 24fps into a 60Hz pattern.

    It's the reason that a R2 disc will normally have a slightly shorter runtime than its R1 equivalent.
     
  10. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Messages:
    10,351
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Ratings:
    +1,312
    The region coding and video standard were separate things, but Standard Def DVDs were modelled after the old Standard Def video systems NTSC and PAL. So you got different video characteristics in different territories.

    Now they've simplified things and gone with 1080p/24 all over the world. This means that when 24p players come out, we'll be able to watch films that are judder free AND at the correct speed (if they were sped up like old DVDs, there'd be no easy way of slowing them back down to the correct speed).

    The down side of this as you've seen, is that for compatibility reasons, that 24hz becomes 60hz and you get judder.
     
  11. AlfaKhan

    AlfaKhan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    250
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Cascais, Portugal
    Ratings:
    +6
    Well, how do I go on about knowing if my VPL-HS50 does that...?

    Thanks.

    WK
     
  12. ashepherd

    ashepherd
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    44
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +1
    Presumably we will need displays that accept 24p as well. As far as I know, only a handful of the sets that we currently have will do so? Indeed, I seem to remember someone saying that there is not even a ratified 1080/24p HDMI standard on the books yet?
     
  13. AlfaKhan

    AlfaKhan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    250
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Cascais, Portugal
    Ratings:
    +6
    Well...I don't deny that the R1 SD DVDs also have a technical limitation associated with having to adjust 24fps material to 60Hz pattern.

    However, about 70 to 80% of my 600+ titles collection are R1 discs. If they display any kind of "juddering", it never bothered me.

    Now, while totally unbiased, I immediately noticed something wrong with these 2, completely different, setups. Something else must be going on. It was significant and very bothering.

    Significant to the point that I am now wondering: "Why would I pay a significant amount of money for new technology format and specific content just to have my viewing experience enhanced regarding definition but hampered in overall presentation fluidity?"

    The whole purpose of my 6-year old migration to a big format Home Cinema was that I felt that for a "cinematic experience" to take place while watching a movie one has to be "distractless" "immersed" in it.

    Now, if something is bound to frequently break that "immersion" feeling through a distracting artifact as this one, it kind of mutes the whole point, doesn't it?

    (...And potentially caters for an headache, I might add...)

    WK
     
  14. ashepherd

    ashepherd
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    44
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +1
    This is what I was trying to get at with my earlier question - is there anything going on with these HD formats beyond what we have experienced with R1 discs all along?
     
  15. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Messages:
    10,351
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Ratings:
    +1,312
    No, I don't think so. I can't think of any reason why HD would judder more.
     
  16. ashepherd

    ashepherd
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    44
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +1
    Thank you. Maybe the sharper picture makes it more noticeable?
     
  17. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Messages:
    10,351
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Ratings:
    +1,312
    I think so. That and the placebo effect of expecting more from the new equipment.

    I may be wrong here though.
     
  18. AlfaKhan

    AlfaKhan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    250
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Cascais, Portugal
    Ratings:
    +6
    Regarding what I saw, you ARE definitely wrong here. I was not expecting anything, regarding this.

    A "placebo effect" happens from something expected, not the other way around.

    I was in no way expecting to see any limitations. Quite on the contrary. It just hit me on the head. Twice.

    In fact, the first time around I stood there for about 5 or more minutes thinking it was just a film feature. I kept thinking that particular scene was edited by the director with a intentional creative call to make it have a "digital feel" about it. It was not until several scenes later that I began to realize that something else was going on.

    On the other hand, both systems could be wrongly set-up. How much do these big electronics chain stores reps know, anyway...?

    I am beginning to think that the only solution will be to call someone I know who sells these players and with whom I have a good commercial relation, put up with whichever price he may come up with for a Toshiba and have him let me try it out with my projector to see how it goes, before committing to buy.

    WK
     
  19. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Messages:
    10,351
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Ratings:
    +1,312
    But that's because you're used to PAL movies, right?

    My bad, sorry!
     
  20. AlfaKhan

    AlfaKhan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    250
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Cascais, Portugal
    Ratings:
    +6
    No, no...I estimate about 70 to 80% of my 600+ titles to be NTSC R1 discs.

    That is why I find it strange for the problem to be exclusively related to the 24fps/60Hz limitation. If that particular limitation already shows in my set-up, it doesn't bother me at all.

    So, how come it immediately "jumped" at me, while seeing these 2, completly different set-ups...? :confused:

    WK
     
  21. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,152
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,276
    R1 DVD and HD DVD / BD are no different re 3:2 judder, it is just the same. There are all sorts of other difference but the 3:2 is the same. If you don't like it then I suggest you try a VP or Pioneer plasma as good solutions to the problem. For R1 world it has been the norm for decades. For others (of us) it is an unnecessay down side but it is now at least correctable. It is a player thing.
     
  22. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Messages:
    10,351
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Ratings:
    +1,312
    Thanks for confirming this Nic, I always wondered why people seem to complain about it more with HD...
     
  23. Marcus Wood

    Marcus Wood
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    376
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +4
    There are a couple of reasons why the 3:2 effect might be more noticeable with HD than SD:

    I think some HD displays are able to eliminate the 3:2 cadence with 480i/60 material but not with HD material. This may be due to the design limitations of the relevant chips, and the fact that processing HD signals needs a lot more computing power.

    When you see Blu-ray or HD-DVD demos playing in shops, it's usually on one of the larger displays - this will tend to make the 3:2 judder more noticeable.
     
  24. AlfaKhan

    AlfaKhan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    250
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Cascais, Portugal
    Ratings:
    +6
    Hmmm...Food for thought, food for thought...

    I am now pretty sure that IF I go this path, this early on, it will have to be on a "try-out" basis to check full compatibility and seamless performance with my VPL-HS50.

    It will be far from a perfect solution, though, since this will most certainly compromise my "best price" options. :(

    PK
     

Share This Page

Loading...