HD camcorders - 60Hz (US models) vs 50Hz (UK models)

andrewilley

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Just debating on buying a decent-spec HD camcorder, either here or from the USA (maybe the Panasonic HS300, or Sony equivalent?). The bad old days of PAL vs. NTSC now being a thing of the past as far as high-def display devices are concerned, can anyone think of a compelling technical reason to buy a UK model rather than a US one? (I would check that the power supply was multi-voltage)

It would be a hard drive model, and only used for HD recordings and probably not down-converted to standard definition. Also needs to be viewed/edited on a PC, most of which have 60Hz screens these days anyway.

Given that the pixel resolutions are the same, I can't see any real reason not to go for the better frame rates of 60i/30p/24p on a USA model vs. 50i/25p on a UK model... So have I missed considering anything important?

Andre
 
There are only one and a half reasons, by my reckoning. The half reason is that 24p is only retrievable from a 60i stream if you have editing software capable of doing the pulldown and the time to do it. I say this is half a reason, because you still have 30p, which doesn't require pulldown. But to my mind, 30p and 25p are a bit pointless. 24p is where the fabled "cinema look" lies, but it's holy grail stuff most people don't have time for.

The other reason (i realise you've said you're not going to, so I'm just putting this out there for other observers of the thread) would be if you're intending to downscale to standard definition for DVD, say, to send family members or friends your videos. Not all DVD players will play both NTSC and PAL, and converting from 30fps to 25fps in software can have a degrading effect on quality.

Weigh those minor niggles up against the money you're saving and you should be in a position to make the right decision.
 
Would you buy a left hand drive car for use in the UK?

NTSC is not the broadcast standard here in the UK, if you want your footage to be fully compatible now and in the future then stick with PAL standard cams.

Higher frame rates don't produce better video IMHO.
 
NTSC is not the broadcast standard here in the UK, if you want your footage to be fully compatible now and in the future then stick with PAL standard cams.

As I said, in high-def terms PAL and NTSC no longer exisit, and all UK HD devices (LCD/plasma TVs, Blu-ray players, etc) will happily cope with either 50Hz or 60Hz. And PC screens are all 60Hz (or more).

So the question remains, why should I go with 50Hz just because that's what my local shop happens to have always stocked in the standard def PAL days? Apart from the one possible issue of downscaling to standard DVD (if I ever wanted to do so) I just can't see any other complelling reasons to go for 50Hz over 60Hz now. Oh, mains lighting freqencies not withstanding - but I think I shoot more in the USA than I do in the UK looking at this stack of DV tapes, LOL.

Andrew: Yes, I know what you mean about the 24p 'filmic' look, I would probably rarely use it (I assume Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 will process it if I wanted to?). However 30p might well be appealing for slow-moving, landscape type material? Oh, and if I do trascode and downscale to PAL DVD for the family, I rather doubt they'll notice the difference... ;)

Andre
 
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30p might well be appealing for slow-moving, landscape type material?
Perhaps. It depends on the camcorder. On most consumer camcorders the way progressive is implemented makes it a bit of a gimmick, in my opinion. One of the few exceptions would be Canon's HDV camcorders (e.g., HV40).

A taxation rather than a technical point and one you may well be aware of: take care if you're ordering on the web and taking delivery in the UK, as there's always the chance you'll be sprung for import duties which will depressingly erode the financial benefits of buying 60Hz.
 
Yeah, I'm aware of the VAT/Duty issues which might be applicable (even if I bring it back myself from a trip to the states). I'm thinking more in terms of whether a US or a UK model would be technically preferable to own, rather than just the purchasing cost. I'd need to check the T&Cs of the manufacturers warantee too.

Andre
 
I'm on the fence as to whether either is preferable to the other from a technical perspective. There's as much moaning about the technical limitations of consumer HD over the pond as there is here: the recording frequency doesn't seem to make much impact on that! Personally, the only reason I'd buy a US model is with the hope of saving some dough.
 
I see no reason to get a 50hz one.
I have one but all my footage is converted to 60hz due to Blu-ray compatability (Blu-ray only accepts 1080i at 50hz and that won't work in the US). All HD Ready TV's MUST accept 60hz signals so there is no issue

It's about time someone else said that PAL and NTSC don't exist in HD land as I've been saying it for a LONG time but no one else seems to agree!



Would you buy a left hand drive car for use in the UK?
this is stupid, UK's HD Ready TV's MUST support 50 & 60hz so yes, you'd buy a left hand drive car if the roads allowed you to drive on either side with the majority of them driving on the right

NTSC is not the broadcast standard here in the UK, if you want your footage to be fully compatible now and in the future then stick with PAL standard cams.
NTSC and PAL aren't the HD broadcasting standards anywhere in the world. They OP is talking HD so why would he want a camera that records in PAL?

Higher frame rates don't produce better video IMHO.
maybe not, but 60hz is compatible with all HD TVs whereas 50hz isn't.
 
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It's about time someone else said that PAL and NTSC don't exist in HD land as I've been saying it for a LONG time but no one else seems to agree!
You'll find plenty of people here who agree if you dig deep enough! PAL and NTSC are standard definition video standards: that much is a given. However, as suggested in this thread, the PAL-NTSC dilemma rears its barnacled head whenever you want to make standard definition DVDs for friends and family from an HD source. At a time when people's homes are often still a mixture of SD and HD technology, the issue is still worth considering. That's the great thing about standards: there are so many to choose from . . .
 
also worth noting that 60hz cameras can struggle with flickering image under certain lights in 50 hz frequency
 
NTSC and PAL aren't the HD broadcasting standards anywhere in the world. They OP is talking HD so why would he want a camera that records in PAL?

but 60hz is compatible with all HD TVs whereas 50hz isn't.

No matter whether it's HD or SD the standards still apply, PAL HD cams record at 25fps and NTSC record at 30fps no matter what format AVCHD or HDV the two formats don't mix and never will.

If HD broadcasting standards don't apply why do cam makers still produce PAL and NTSC cams?

You can watch both formats equally on UK HD TV's but if you ever want to edit or use the cam to it's full capability's (eg. plug it in to a DVD recorder for a quick copy) you may have problems

From my reading there's many NTSC videographers who would prefer to use PAL HD cams for the reason it's easier to achieve the film look (24p) without having to go through the pulldown process

It's only NTSC TV's that aren't compatible with 50Hz another reason why HD isn't a universal broadcast standard

Here's a link discussing the subject from the other side of the pond, check post 80
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=3580
 
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It's only NTSC TV's that aren't compatible with 50Hz another reason why HD isn't a universal broadcast standard

So to paraphrase, a US HD camcorder is compatible with pretty much everything HD worldwide, while a UK one won't work with many US TVs (which has largely been the case for many years, even back to tube PAL TVs). A very good reason for going with US equipment methinks.

The idea of shooting in 25p and then run-rate converting it to 24p is silly, everything would be running at the wrong speed (rather like movies do on PAL TV). Not in any way a desirable solution!

I am a little concerned that the specs for the Panasonic HS300 (US version) only include 60i and 24p - can it not do 30p too?

Andre
 
I've just bought a Japanese import Canon HF S10 and saved nearly ÂŁ300! - I watch and make Bluray in 24p and 30p it plays on everything! :thumbsup: ÂŁ300!
 
The idea of shooting in 25p and then run-rate converting it to 24p is silly, everything would be running at the wrong speed (rather like movies do on PAL TV). Not in any way a desirable solution!

Andre

Sorry, but you seem confused, PAL cams don't capture 25p they capture 24p/50i/25fps, 24p is nearer to the cine film look than 30p

NTSC cams capture at 30P/60i/30fps, to obtain the "film" look (cine film which PAL cams do almost naturally) they have to convert down, hence the "pulldown"

Did you read my link?
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again (once) before leaving it for good: NTSC and PAL are standard definition formats, not high defintion formats. There is no PAL or NTSC in high definition - there are different standards (60i and 50i) which are divided up along the same geographical lines, but that's it. If the boxes that camcorders are shipped in have "PAL" or "NTSC" stamped on them, then they are either referring to the fact that the composite output from the camera will be in one or the other format, or because it's a shorthand to help the consumer.

The post on the thread you linked to contains misleading information, e.g.:
"the NTSC models have a "24P film" mode in a 60i wrapper" which requires post production processing for 3:2 pull-down" to show it on a 60-field per second NTSC display.
The reason 24p video is contained in a 60i stream is because that way you don't need to do anything to the video in order to view it on an "NTSC" (he means 1080i60) television. The pull-down is only required when true 24p is sought - when, for instance, the final product is destined for celluloid.

Incidentally, 24p is only "film like" because it runs at the same rate as film, which means no frames need to be dropped in the telecine process - not because setting a camcorder to record at 24p will magically turn video into film.
 
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I've said it before and I'll say it again (once) before leaving it for good: NTSC and PAL are standard definition formats, not high defintion formats.

What he said. :smashin:

PAL stands for Phase Alternating Line, it's a colour encoding system developed for use with interlaced analogue video signals to reduce broadcast colour interference (which, incidentally, is why PAL TVs didn't have a tint control like NTSC ones did). In fact, it actually has nothing to do with number of scan lines or frame rates, and there were (still are as far as I know) some PAL markets which don't use the traditional British 625/50i format.

The PAL and NTSC terms have become a sloppy and incorrect shorthand for 50Hz vs 60Hz broadcast markets.


Meanwhile, back at the point, there are no UK non-pro HD camcorders which support 1920x1080/24p as far as I'm aware, but there are some which support 25p - even if it's saved in a 50i encoding format.

I personally feel that 30p would be better for possible future computer encoding purposes, as that would better match 60Hz PC LCD screens, but anything progressive (24p, 25p or 30p) which avoids de-interlacing artefacts would be fine.

Andre
 
No matter whether it's HD or SD the standards still apply, PAL HD cams record at 25fps and NTSC record at 30fps no matter what format AVCHD or HDV the two formats don't mix and never will.
I don't have a PAL or NTSC camera, mine shoots HD only at 50i but that doesn't make it PAL

I was shot down on here 3/4 years ago by a few people who didn't believe HD 25/50 wasn't PAL, luckily it seems people are more educated these days.
 
Ah, I see you've finally come to your senses! ;)

I suppose we can let you off this time . . .
 
Ah, I see you've finally come to your senses! ;)

I suppose we can let you off this time . . .

I hope you don't mean my opinion, I suppose in this PC world I have to use the term 50Hz instead of PAL and 60Hz instead of NTSC.:(

But my opinion still stands that 60Hz is not the UK broadcast standard, it is not compatible with 50Hz, it may cause problems with UK sourced equipment, it is not easy to incorporate with any 50Hz/PAL footage in video editing, if users ever upgrade in the future and choose a 50Hz cam the footage will not be compatible with the 60Hz cam.
There may also be warranty issues

Yes, I agree it can be viewed easily on any HDTV and Bluray/media player but 60Hz cams are not made for use in the UK.

I may be wrong but it's my opinion;)

You'll all know/be aware by now but here's a link to UK broadcasting standards.
High Definition Television (HDTV) FAQ for the UK (Sky BBC Telewest)
 
i agree with the above - technicalities aside, if you're in 50 hz pal land buy a 50hz camera, if in 60hz ntsc buy 60hz.... why limit yourself with potential problems - the light flicker issue alone is enough for me to be put off, let alone postage & other inconvenience costs if anything goes wrong under warranty, just to save (with the present exchange rate) a few quid.
 
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