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Have plasmas had their day?

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by swin70, Dec 26, 2004.

?
  1. Plasma are the screens of the future

    16.1%
  2. LCD are the screens of the future

    21.4%
  3. DLP rear projection are the screens of the future

    27.7%
  4. Something else?

    34.8%
  1. swin70

    swin70
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    I have long had the opinion that plasmas are too much money for the picture quality that they produce. Ok, so their thin, but that doesn’t necessarily make a good TV, and there are very good screen, but at what cost?

    I have been following DLP technology from a while back but mainly in projectors which were/are prohibitively expensive. The other day I was trying to kill some time and wondered into our local Comet. They had this TV set up in a mini lounge setting and it is the first time I had seen the DLP technology in action on a rear projection TV. The picture was unbelievable and the price of £2000 was I thought incredible for a 50” screen. The thickness of the TV is not much more than a plasma screen, yet the brightness, contrast and view angle were superb for a rear projection screen and in my opinion, blew away any plasma that I have seen thus far. They also had this hooked up to the HDTV broadcast (I believe from Euro 1080) and this was breathtaking. I did not get to see a standard TV picture, but I guess this would be a rubbish and unwatchable as TV picture on a plasma, but I could be wrong.

    It would be nice to see some back-to-back reviews of this and other rear projection TV’s with this technology. Based on the pictures I saw from this thing, this could be the way of the future. It seems as though all the downsides of rear projection (size, brightness and viewing angle) have been eliminated and there are just positives (if only they would include a digital tuner)


    Chris
     
  2. Nick_UK

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    All the technologies have their advantages and disadvantages. When your prized DLP TV is 18 months old, and the lamp is starting to flicker, and you're saving hard for the £200+ that a new one will cost, and the dust and bugs have got into the optics, and the cooling fan has started to squeak, and the colour wheel is vibrating, you may think a little differently :D
     
  3. swin70

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    Maybe I could just use some of the £2000 or so have saved in NOT buying an equivliant plasma ;).

    Not that I have actually bought a DLP yet, I need to do some more digging, but don't plasmas have a relevatively short life span as well and there own set of problems? One would assume that when people see the differences in plasma to DLP and DLP set start becomeing more popular, then the price of things like lamps will reduce significantly. The other problems you mention sound mechanical (fans, colour wheel) and although I have not seen the inside of one of these things, I guessing that these mechnaical bit should be prety straight forward to replace.
     
  4. Lizzard

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    The future is flat panel in one way or another, DLP is just one way to bridge the price gap between highend large plasma screens and peoples wallet.

    When the gap narrows people will run and pay flat screens, LCD or plasma or any other technology that is current and best.

    Ask yourself this if this was the case, would you pay £2000 for a 50" DLP when you can have a 50" Pioneer plasma for the same price?

    I know what i would get, the Pioneer.
     
  5. Chris5

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    Lizzard is right, I would go further and say that until something new comes along, Plasma will be dead in 18 months once LCD has resolved its technical issues (which I am confident it will), plasma technology can not got much further. that is why I have just gone for the cheap stop-gap DLP Technology (Optima) to be replaced by something new (probably LCD) in 3 years.
     
  6. swin70

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    I must admit I didn't see a pioneer Plasma (any particular model in mind?) working side by side with the DLP, only 42" Plasmas, but they were in the same price band albeit high street store prices. Still I wouldn't have belived it if I hadn't seen it but all the plasmas were shocking in comparison. I would have to go for the DLP. It just goes to prove the old adage that you must demo first and let your eyes decide.
     
  7. Razor

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    I personally prefer the picture from a DLP set rather than a plasma, I find it more natural and less super-imposed.

    Check this new Infocus flat tv which is out in the states. 61' set and only 18cm deep DLP rear projector.

    http://www.infocushome.com/amer/eng/menu.asp

    it looks like there is going to be alot of competetion in the DLP market.
     
  8. TonyA

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    At present its looking like CRT is going to go the way of the dinosor within the next 5 years.

    Personally I think Plasma is not going to be far behind it due to the problems with the technology e.g. burn-in, phosphor decay etc...

    LCD if they can get over the issues with it will no doubt become the defacto standard in smaller size screen and maybe larger screens (I've seen some good demos of LCD - but with dead pixels and screen lag - its not there yet!).

    DLP - is as already stated, a good stop-gap - especially in price/performance/screen-size stakes!

    There are new technologies coming - Sony's version of LCOS, and the new SED from Tosh/Canon (which sounds truly amazing).

    'spose it's going to be "watch this space" over the next couple of years, to see what appears as the leading technology.

    T.
     
  9. Chris5

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    It's clear to me thougth that we won't see a technology lasting for 40 years like CRT, it will be like 2 - 3 years at the moment, then going down to 1 - 2 years. The computerised electronics age has finally hit display technology
     
  10. Nick_UK

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    Many plasma manufacturers are quoting 60,000 hours lifetime, which is equivalent to about 15 years of life, based on about 9 hours a day usage. Plasmas have already proved their longevity in advertising and information displays in airports and railway stations.

    With DLP screens, you are forced to change the lamp every 2000 hours (typically), if the lamp lasts that long, and 2000 hours is less than 250 days at 8 hours a day. At £200 a lamp, I could replace my plasma every 6 years, and still be in profit. It's not a filament lamp, it's a mercury discharge lamp, and some people have reported failure long before the 2000 hours.

    Many people have seen DLP projectors in a showroom, and have been disappointed when they have got them home, because they didn't notice the fan and motor noise until then.

    All technologies have their advantages and disadvantages, and you should be aware, before sinking your cash into any of them.
     
  11. swin70

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    I agree, that all the different technolgies have there ups and downs, that's why I started this thread. However, I personally havn't seen a plasma screen picture that I like in the sub £4000 price bracket, and even then they and not "that" good. This is the price differential I was talking about.

    Maybe we should hold on till next autum for the SED technolgy is unveiled. I wonder what this is gonna cost?
     
  12. alancolledge

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    I think the most important issue that no one has mentioned is that it is still a novelty to hang your tv on the wall as a picture and save an awful lot of space at the same time.
    Massive value can be had from big screen per pound rear projection tv's and it is nice to see dlp being an advancement on the technology but not many lounges would want to accomodate these beasts even if they are slimmer than crt.
    I'd agree that flat screen technology is advancing all the time and the screen we could be watching in 10-15 years time will potentially be a new technology but the I think its safe to say the trend is set. If it doesn't hang on the wall or save space it won't succeed.
    You could give me the highest ultra hidef screen with near lifelike clarity, but if it takes half my living space up it would be a non starter. :nono:

    I upgraded from a 28inch sony widescreen to my plasma and it certainly wasn't a step back in regard to quality. As Nick said I had done my maths to how long the screen would last and I am sure in 5-8 years time, when it is in the bedroom :cool: , I will be trying to convince the wife again.

    edit: just cast my votes and seen the poll result so far, interesting but I wonder what the result would be if it was started in the plasma forum? :suicide: :p
     
  13. fatbob

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    Two months ago I would have totally agreed with you, but having now had the chance to see a properly set up plasma (Panasonic PWD6) I found all my old preconceptions blown away.

    Plasma is capable of fantastic picture performance, but (and it's a BIG but) it's totally dependant on good setup, and that's something that virtually every high street store, and a very high percentage of "specialist dealers" are totally incapable of. I don't doubt that rear projection DLP is capable of great performance, but a properly calibrated plasma from the likes of Pioneer or Panasonic will more than hold it's own in terms of picture quality.

    My guess is that plasma will be around for years to come. Large screen plasmas have firmly established themselves in the home cinema market, and high quality screens are now available for well below the £2000 mark. Flat panel 42" LCD screens still haven't hit the market, and when they do the prices will be very high by current plasma standards. By the time affordable 42" LCD's are available, plasma will have a huge foothold, not to mention prices slipping to ever lower levels.

    I also think there are too many big players in the electronics world who have invested heavily in plasma technology. They will do whatever it takes to make plasma a success.

    Smaller flat panel LCD's are the best bet to take over from smaller CRT sets, but once flat panels begin to take over, whether smaller LCD's or larger Plasmas, then rear projection of all technologies will become obsolete and disappear.
     
  14. swin70

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    To be fair I posted a link in the Plasma foroum at the same time as I posted this poll. I maybe worth giving it a bump to see if anyone else want's to respond. I didn't post in the LCD forum however, and there is no future technolgy (SED, OLED etc) forum.
     
  15. Todda

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    swin70

    It is pointless having a demo of one display being fed a as HD signal and another being fed something completely different (In comet it was probably an analogue signal slit between 50 other displays).

    I have never seen a DLP rear projection TV properly set up to view a variety of signals, but by the sounds of it neither have you.

    I think you have done the right thing posting on this forum looking for opinions, (Thats why it's here) but if your seriously considering buying one the these TVs, I would take a bit of time to get a demo of one displaying a signal that you are likely to be taking up most of your viewing time.

    That might answer your questions straight away.
     
  16. MAW

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    You mention hiogh st stores. I'd say the setup of each screen depends on the margin on sale of each one... I've been there, done that. All far too profit led, that's why I'm in custom install now. I can now make money by being honest.
     
  17. swin70

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    Did pop back today but the crowds were hellish. They had a Pioneer 43" plasma (£3500 their price!) set up in a similar enviroment showing Zoro on a dedicated DVD. The picture was awfull, fuzzy and obviously wobbly on slow zooms etc. On second looking of the DLP screen however, you can start to see some of the problems such a rainbowing - this was being fed by a Windows Media signal. Just goes to show you the different problems of each of these technolgys.


    Agreed, but it's a good place to start to look at lots of kit, if only for asthetics etc.
     
  18. fatbob

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    Sadly this sounds all too typical of a Comet demo. The dvd player was almost certainly connected via a composite signal, and the plasma settings would have been 100% contrast, 100% sharpness etc. In that situation no large display, no matter how good, will be capable of producing an even remotely decent picture.

    A couple of weeks ago, my highly technophobic sister paid a visit. She never goes near electrical shops of any kind, and has zero interest in A/V. Even the sight of my new plasma got only a hurried "oh yeah. That's nice". But yesterday she told me that while she was in the dreaded Dixons buying some presents, she couldn't help but notice how bad all the plasma screens looked. She asked me how mine could look so good, while the one's in the shops looked so bad.

    Believe me, if even my sister comments on the gap in performance between a good and a bad setup, then the difference has to be drastic. :eek:
     
  19. Razor

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    I agree with you Fatbob, most of the flat panel, front projector, rear projectors are never set up properly in shops with a shared arial feed between 30 sets. Absolutely crazy.
    Would a car dealer selling brand new cars leave them unclean and detuned to run poorly. I think not. Its not that hard to set a tv up to work properly.
     
  20. magicstar

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    Spot on Razor - I use the "motor car" analogy when expounding my frustrations at not finding a worthy home for my 5 Grand in the big bad world of Large screen Telly. I potentially ordered a Pioneer 505xde at Fenwick of Newcastle, some six weeks ago - subject to seeing that elusive "off air" picture, that didn't remind me of those third generation VCR copies of 70's porn movies (that I've been told about). two or three weeks later, I was informed that the 505 was in stock, along with the long speakers, which I wanted to see in the flesh, attached to the telly, to do a total measure and visual. " But we don't have a pair of long speakers for demo - the only ones we have are yours - we only display the ones with the standard speakers, because that's what comes with the panel". Er, hello!!, the ones you have in stock for me could be attached to your 505 - so the public at large could see, in the flesh, what occupies some 80% of the visuals in the new Pioneer brochure and, if I like what I see and you've managed to create something off air worth viewing - then I'll give you £5000, otherwise you may have them in stock forever - does this make economic sense? - - - - - Apparently not - I have re-visited the store four times in the last four weeks and viewed the same, lame digital terrestrial signal, with its inherent tinsel fringing, facial smearing and "Monet" grass - on a 435xde - with a speakerless 505 hidden behind - and no-one really seems to care??? As the man in Comet said, when I put this general scenario to him: " we use cheap cables to connect to a fairly poor multi-split aerial system - to do it properly would cost too much, according to the management, and WE MAKE ENOUGH MONEY ANYWAY - SO WHY CHANGE?

    So there you have it - but what about people like you and me? or all the people who, when asked "do you need any help?" - simply reply "no thanks" - when what they really mean is "I don't think so pal - yer tellies are ****e - I've seen better pictures on me mam's Ferguson through me dad's glasses"

    Anyway, suffice it to say, that the best PQ I've seen is the HD hard disc feed on the Sagem Axium - and the best off air I've seen ( on a 42" plus screen) is a freeview broadcast in Curries, Teesside Park, Middlesbro', on the Samsung 50" DLP, the one with the portholes and the triangular pillar - can't get away with the design of this, I'm afraid, so I'd really like to see the Loewe 55 or the up and coming Thomson, based on the new Infocus microdisplay engine - any info on where to view these, or, indeed, any other contenders, woul be most appreciated.

    Yours, in the longest of wind

    The Magic Star
     
  21. Razor

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    Hi magicstar

    I know this set is not availble in the UK but I cant wait for it to arrive.

    http://www.infocushome.com/amer/eng/products/microdisplay/home.asp

    Thay call it thin TV, a 61 inch set is only 18cm deep.

    Out of the choice in the uk today I like the look of the Samsung Sp50l7hxx and I beleive it has a 56' bigger brother.

    The Sagem HD-45 is a good looking set but I dont know if it has the same NTSC issues as the Optoma RD65/RD50. If it doesn't I would consider one of these.

    If you have the cash you could alway try the Sim2 55. The picture was good if a little dark (saw it at the Sim2 stand, should be set up properly, well maybe).

    The other set of interest is the new Sony 70', which isn't DLP, but looks a monster.

    I would say an Optoma RD65 as I have one, but after all the hasle and troubles I have encountered I can't. The set is totally non compatible with NTSC/60Hz and PAL60. As I have found out to my shock and disapointment.

    The only cure is to spend a £1200 on a video processor such as a Lugamen or DVDO. But officialy Optoma still havent evan said this, all they will say is that there is a problem with the RD50/RD65 and they can't fix it internally and so far can not elliminate it externally. You have been warned.

    Are you looking to buy now or in the next six months?
     
  22. Laurel&Hardy

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    This is hopelessly optimistic on the manufacturers part. No Plasma can last this long because the phosphors burn out too readily. The only way you will get 60,000 hours is if you display a black image, and I'm not kidding about that. The expected life of a plasma is around 5,000 hours under normal operating conditions. The display panels in the airport - they probably get replaced every year, possibly sooner, by which time they are totally burnt out. Lets face it, a bit of screen burn on one of those won't really get noticed.
     
  23. Nick_UK

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    Actually the half-life of a plasma is due to the characteristics of the GAS used, not the phosphors. The phosphors are virtually the same as those used in conventional CRT displays, which is why plasmas give such good colour performance. In any case, you can't compare the life of a display that is used mainly for static images with a display that will be used for TV.

    It's because plasmas have been used in 24/7 displays in hostile environments, that many manufacturers actually publish the expected life of their displays and it's 30,000 to 60,000 hours. If you say it's 5,000 please post the source of your info. The 60,000 hours comes from published Panasonic literature.
     
  24. -TYN-

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    YAWN, YAWN....
    Nick i cant believe your still in the DLP section trying to convince yourself Plasma is great. I have owned all the technologies including Panasonic plasma, Sony lcd grand wega and both the Tosh and Sammie dlps. I found faults with them all but i can clearly see that dlp has a far greater picture when they sort the rainbow problem out which i do agree is alot more noticable than i expected.
    Also would help if you stopped quoting manufacturers plasma lifespan expectancy when you are so fast to dissregard the ones given by dlp manufacturers. Also i did take a look in the projector forums and they seem to agree that dlp is better than lcd and that both are way ahead of plasma if you have read most of the threads properly you should already have realised this.
    But the best technology does not always win and i think plamas will still be popular because of looks, size and style alone.

    Ok now feel free to take a pop, as i wont be replying in this thread anymore as i dont think your argument deserves it.

    Thx all :)
     
  25. Nick_UK

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    Well, I would, if you had actually said anything new yourself, apart from a couple of infantile "Yawn" comments. If you think that I'm saying that plasma is better than everything else, then you've got it wrong. All I'm saying is that DLP isn't the answer to everything either. I own both technologies myself.

    Sorting out the "rainbow effect" is a piece of cake. All you have to do is use 3 DLP chips, remove the colour wheel, add 3 times as much in the way of optics, but of a much higher quality, and add mechanisms to keep it all in convergeance. Easy, except that it pushes up the price by about £10,000 :laugh:
     
  26. -TYN-

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    Or just use a scr colour wheel which does not put much increase on price when released shortly. :rotfl:

    Why do you need to exagerate all your points against only dlp and not plasma if you have no bias ?
     
  27. carlton

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    Plasma's are popular because of style ,looks, size and also the picture they can produce.
    I guess the 5000 hours thing was a joke given the name of the poster :D
     
  28. Nick_UK

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    That's pure conjecture. If a product has not been released yet, then you don't know the price. You also do not know that an scr wheel will eliminate rainbow effects - I've looked at several manufacturer's websites, and I have not seen that claim. It's also most unlikely that scr wheels will be "retro-fittable" to existing pj's.

    I wasn't aware that I had been. My lifetime expectancy of the lamps was a bit wide of the mark, I agree, but that was based more on DLP pj experience than back-projected DLP. I don't think I exgerated anything else. I just get sick and tired to see claims that DLP back-projection is the panacea for all ills, when it has many drawbacks. That also doesn't mean to say that other technologies didn't have their own drawbacks too.
     
  29. -TYN-

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    Yes you are right all technologies have their drawbacks and infact the two dlp sets i had i sent back due to the rainbow effect which for "me personally" is the only drawback.
    I recommend everbody views a dlp properly before splashing out as i feel the rainbow effect is worse than most people make out, I noticed it constantly on nearly all dark scenes. But i still think it has the best picture quality by a fair margin. The SCR wheel is definatley coming soon as it has already been shown in pre-production seleco projectors and is already manufactured for for the manufacturers by a TI company called Ocean Optics http://www.oceanoptics.org/products/scrollingcolorwheels.asp.

    It also seems that manufactures are starting to see the limitation/drawbacks of plasma as both Sony and Toshiba have both announced that they will be phasing out plasma by 2007. Lcd is good but i noticed on my Sony grand wega that the pic starts to go abit greeny and convergance problems arise over time, also image blur is a problem (mainly on games) although not to drastic.
     
  30. Nick_UK

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    I'm not at all surprised that manufacturers want to move away from plasma. It's very hard to produce, and it's unlikely that the price will come down much more, because of the high manufacturing reject rates. I think most manufacturers see plasma as a good stop-gap until a better type of flat panel is developed.

    When I look at the DLP TV's of today, I can't help but think of Baird's original TV "apparatus" with its spinning wheels, and I can't bring myself to think of DLP as a great leap in technology. I have also worked on back-projected TV using conventional high-brightness CRT's and mirrors, and I do know that dust can be a problem, and viewing angles are still not as good as plasma.

    Having said all that, I'm also convinced that the future of TV doesn't lie with either plasma or DLP - it's far more likely to be with a variant of the LCD display :)
     

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