Have an issue with my MA RX6 / Should I upgrade or ?

atoprak

Standard Member
Ok thanks, sorry, I missed that.

Can you provide distances to the listening position from at a side wall and either the front and back wall?

Also speaker locations including distances from the back and side walls?

I am sitting almost exactly in the middle of the room, so it is fair to say that 9ft from the front wall and almost same from the back wall..

As for the location of the speakers, i can move them away from the front wall around 1.8-2 feet max, or level it with the wall. I test them and see observe the performance with space back.

As for the side walls, the closer one is at 2.4ft and the other one is 4ft away from the side wall. And finally the space in between the speakers is a around 8-8.2ft
 

atoprak

Standard Member
One tiny observation…

I bought the tv in the pictures 2-3
months ago. This is Sony tv with some acoustic surface sound technology… basically we hear the sound from panel but not from side, or the speakers at back… anyway.. the tv has a tiny built in subwoofer as well…

Although the power is very limited… I should say that the tv produces better bass feeling (again, when I am sitting) then my stereo system If i match the sound level and use same songs.

It is really shame… i have started to hate my system … the sound is not getting delivered to my ears at all.. but that tv does!
 

Kapkirk

Active Member
Dear All,

I am having an issue with my setup and not sure what to do ...
I am not sure even if I have an issue or not either...

I am running my Monitor audio Rx6 with Creek evolution 50A integrated amp and using BlueSound Node as a streaming device. I also have a Marantz Cd67mk2 cd player as a source component as well. If it matter, all cables are solid enough :)

The problem I am having is the low frequency output of my speakers. They do provide a decent amount of base but in order to get these, I need to stand up at my listening position... the base is always there when I stand up and even walk at in my listening room but got lost when I sit my listening position. The speakers are well aligned, pulled away from the wall at back about 50cm ...the side wall are not not closer than 1m and they are well toed in to my listening position (sorry for poor lighting conditions, and mess around... the last picture is my "ideal" listening position) ... I am not sure .. I think these speakers are fine as well regarded in almost all reviews... no ones says that they are light on base either ... and so, I am not sure if and upgrade to something better would resolve my base output problem...probably not.... but I may have some other gains If I upgrade to something like Sonus Faber Luminas, Focal Aria 926 .. or bit out of budget but Dynadio Evoke 30 (even Evoke 20 sounded very nice in the shop) .. or even bookshelf versions of these and a small sub...

I bought Rx6s five years ago.... actually, I can’t say that I am not happy but sometimes you are looking for some change :) I am just wondering If I change my speakers with something new and different sound profile to satisfy my "change" desires... or should I add a small subwoofer to fill the room with more base notes and keep using Rx6s ...

Yes... It is bit complicated .. what would you do ?
This is a typical sign of out of phase speaker connections, bass will get strong if you put your head over or behind the speakers and a null at the listening point or beyond. switch ONE speaker connection over ONLY and see what happens. You can swap plus for minus either on the amp side or the speaker side (in other words put the + on the - of one speaker connection. If the bass improves at the seating position your wiring or speaker was wired incorrectly.
There is NO reason the bass should be poor at your current listening position unless there is a fault with the speakers or amplifier.
 

Conrad

Moderator
It's pretty common that the middle of a room, and especially a square room, is about the worst place you can sit, it's a good candidate for nulls.

If you look at this model of your room you can see that there's a big suck-out in the 100Hz region which isn't there when you stand up:

1647164036441.png

(black is sat down, pink is 2ft above)

If you move your seating position so that you're about 8' from the front wall the problem goes away. Can you test that, even if it's just temporary?
 

atoprak

Standard Member
This is a typical sign of out of phase speaker connections, bass will get strong if you put your head over or behind the speakers and a null at the listening point or beyond. switch ONE speaker connection over ONLY and see what happens. You can swap plus for minus either on the amp side or the speaker side (in other words put the + on the - of one speaker connection. If the bass improves at the seating position your wiring or speaker was wired incorrectly.
There is NO reason the bass should be poor at your current listening position unless there is a fault with the speakers or amplifier

Hello ...

Well, not entirely ... I see your point but the bass is there when I stand up got close to wall and this is very unlikely that I am checking these connections all the time as they got loose or disconnected while we are cleaning the area behind them... but I may try to mix these connections ... I am thinking of changing the connection on both speakers ... so, I may have a chance to pull from speakers instead fo push (or vice versa) they both go out of phase but the two wrong connection may end up one correct result... actually both treble and midrange will get effected as well.. but worth to try .. .
 

atoprak

Standard Member
It's pretty common that the middle of a room, and especially a square room, is about the worst place you can sit, it's a good candidate for nulls.

If you look at this model of your room you can see that there's a big suck-out in the 100Hz region which isn't there when you stand up:

View attachment 1666797

(black is sat down, pink is 2ft above)

If you move your seating position so that you're about 8' from the front wall the problem goes away. Can you test that, even if it's just temporary?
will definitely try ... and I believe that will work as I had that feeling yesterday as I closer to wall behind the bass was getting picked up...

I liked that software as well.. Is this free of charge or do I have any way to trial this for a while ?

P.S. I bet we can add sub woofer and simulate the response with this software right ?
 

Conrad

Moderator
will definitely try ... and I believe that will work as I had that feeling yesterday as I closer to wall behind the bass was getting picked up...

I liked that software as well.. Is this free of charge or do I have any way to trial this for a while ?

P.S. I bet we can add sub woofer and simulate the response with this software right ?
You could also try playing some test tones to confirm that the difference is pronounced in that region.

It's free software, it's called REW and it's amazing. The function I'm using is called room sim and it allows you to place speakers and multiple subs in a room and model the response, affecting positions, gains, and delays.

It's the industry standard for measurements and analysis. There are other tools for specific use cases, but it's a great general tool.
 

atoprak

Standard Member
You could also try playing some test tones to confirm that the difference is pronounced in that region.

It's free software, it's called REW and it's amazing. The function I'm using is called room sim and it allows you to place speakers and multiple subs in a room and model the response, affecting positions, gains, and delays.

It's the industry standard for measurements and analysis. There are other tools for specific use cases, but it's a great general tool.

Yes,
I have found a play list from Spotify and tested all 30,40,50,60 and 100hz respectively....
I can definitely say that I hear very little If I sit even If the windows frames in the kichen were buzzing at 30hz-40hz levels... and I hear even less at 100hz comparing sitting close (0-1m away) to back wall .. I am definitely in the null area... and I am almost %100 sure that I can not fix these with any pair of loud speakers ... well may be something very bass heavy can help but then it will be booming when I stand up .. or walk in the in living room anytime.

I have downloaded the program and input my exact measurements there..
This is bit different than yours but still shows the dip area ... and that dip area is very critical for listening as well

1647178718345.png
 

atoprak

Standard Member
I am playing with the app and added a subwoofer to one of possible places in the living room.
The straight line shows the setup with subwoofer... sealed one and can go as deep as 30hz ..
The dashed, yellow one is what I have ... It shows some decent improvement ...

what do you think ?
 

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Conrad

Moderator
That makes much more sense, your below 60Hz response is really suffering.

More bass won't help, nulls are caused by cancellations from reflections. If you boost the direct signal then you boost the reflection as well.

What happens if you reduce the -3dB point of the mains? At the moment they're set to 50Hz, is that accurate? What happens if you move your head in room sim, does another position give you a better low end response?

I am playing with the app and added a subwoofer to one of possible places in the living room.
The straight line shows the setup with subwoofer... sealed one and can go as deep as 30hz ..
The dashed, yellow one is what I have ... It shows some decent improvement ...

what do you think ?

This looks better, but I think it can be improved.
What sub are you considering that has a -3 point of 30Hz?

You should click the Time Align speakers and subs box and see what that does, that's what your AVR will do with it's bass management and auto EQ.
 

atoprak

Standard Member
That makes much more sense, your below 60Hz response is really suffering.

More bass won't help, nulls are caused by cancellations from reflections. If you boost the direct signal then you boost the reflection as well.

What happens if you reduce the -3dB point of the mains? At the moment they're set to 50Hz, is that accurate? What happens if you move your head in room sim, does another position give you a better low end response?



This looks better, but I think it can be improved.
What sub are you considering that has a -3 point of 30Hz?

You should click the Time Align speakers and subs box and see what that does, that's what your AVR will do with it's bass management and auto EQ.

Well,

I have checked the specs of Rx6s... it sees that they are working in between 38hz to 35khz (no indication of gain .. so taking as 0db) ... If I set their gain to -3db each this gets a bit worse almost ever where... If I move my head and make it close to back wall I am ending up with this

1647185215177.png



But thats not practical .. as I have no option to sit on top of our sideboard :)

The specs of the subs are bit confusing...
I was looking at b&w asw608 but this has a rather complicated specs ..
1647185484031.png


or REL Tzero mk3 as 27hz at -6db.... son in case of the app is set for -3db as default, I should set gain to -3b to makine it -6db in total, right ?

Time alignment makes a very little difference

So, in an example RL Tzero Mk3 ends up with this graph


1647185845675.png



The choppiness in between 30-40, slight peak and tip around 60hz looks a bit worrying ... but I am not expert by reading these though..
 

Conrad

Moderator
Don't play with gain, leave that at 0.
When I say -3, it's the first text box on each row, in the column marked LF -3dB (Hz).

For the Rx6 you would put 38 in the box, as that's their low end extension. That will control how quickly the response will roll off.

For time alignment, also feel free to adjust the delay text box against the sub, increase the number and see how it changes the response.

A Rel T zero will have benefits if you have lots of placement options, but I wouldn't expect it to add much, it's a 6.5" driver with a 100w amp. It's -6 point is 37Hz, which is about the same as your mains.

Have a look at the BK subs, you can get something much better like an XLS200 or the XXLS400 for about the same money. They'll have 10" drivers and a -3 point of 20Hz. Add that in and move the sub around to see what you can get.
 

atoprak

Standard Member
Don't play with gain, leave that at 0.
When I say -3, it's the first text box on each row, in the column marked LF -3dB (Hz).

For the Rx6 you would put 38 in the box, as that's their low end extension. That will control how quickly the response will roll off.

For time alignment, also feel free to adjust the delay text box against the sub, increase the number and see how it changes the response.

A Rel T zero will have benefits if you have lots of placement options, but I wouldn't expect it to add much, it's a 6.5" driver with a 100w amp. It's -6 point is 37Hz, which is about the same as your mains.

Have a look at the BK subs, you can get something much better like an XLS200 or the XXLS400 for about the same money. They'll have 10" drivers and a -3 point of 20Hz. Add that in and move the sub around to see what you can get.

Just checked them .. seems very, very reasonable and they ship to Netherlands as well..
In total, it is matching the price of b&w. I have some size constraints (just because of wife factor again!) so XLS200 FF will probably be my pick..

After playing with this tool, this is my best for now (with no sub)...putting them right next to front wall...

1647208909629.png


and this is the best I can see with the sub..

1647209088068.png


(dashed line is the existing system)

so.. I gain some decibels in between 30-60hz but It seems even bit better gain in between 60hz to 140hz..

So .. Is it worth an investment ? .. I dont know how they did this but that tiny sub on my tv works like a charm ..
 

Conrad

Moderator
If you can move the seating a little you can get a much smoother response:

1647281265363.png
 

atoprak

Standard Member
I dont know how on earth my tv speakers with small, tiny, build in sub performs that well when I am sitting right exactly at the same spot. I don't know what happens If I add a decent sound bar with a sub .. If that (tv setup) is that good, I couldn’t image a high end sound bar setup there ...

I got cold to my system .. not listening any more after these facts ...
 

Conrad

Moderator
Because the sub and speakers are in a different place.
If you put the speakers and sub directly in front of you in room sim you get a decent response.

1647344883575.png


Wherever the speakers and sub are in the room, they interact with the room. Wherever you move them to you change that interaction. The interaction of the output from the speakers and subs with the room changes at every point in the room.

If you move the speakers, you change the response everywhere, and then you pick on of those responses by sitting there.

If you put your mains where your TV speakers are, and your sub in about the same place, you'll get the same response from your mains as you do from your TV, but with the addition of better clarity and bass extension.
 

atoprak

Standard Member
Because the sub and speakers are in a different place.
If you put the speakers and sub directly in front of you in room sim you get a decent response.

View attachment 1667998

Wherever the speakers and sub are in the room, they interact with the room. Wherever you move them to you change that interaction. The interaction of the output from the speakers and subs with the room changes at every point in the room.

If you move the speakers, you change the response everywhere, and then you pick on of those responses by sitting there.

If you put your mains where your TV speakers are, and your sub in about the same place, you'll get the same response from your mains as you do from your TV, but with the addition of better clarity and bass extension.

I agree.. but on thing I dont understand is how on earth if these tiny speakers (no matter what technology that Sony put in a TV) with very small subwoofer performs almost same If I sit down or stand up right on my listening position ... their sound is not changing and they do sound very nice..

I am really, really frustrated with this... I have just moved my speakers right infronf of the tv and separated them for 1m. I just wanted to simulate a simple stereo setup without sub on my listening position .. same.. nothing.. I have nothing at 30hz .. almost nothing at any low frequencies at all.

As for summary even If we spend a huge amount of money, If we are sitting in the middle of the room (normal room, no treatment) we have to get a sub.... no way of 2 channel listening
 

atoprak

Standard Member
Buy an SVS Micro 3000 and be done with it or better still buy two:D
These are relatively expensive here.. I can not say these are not worth the money but I can buy two BK XL200 mk2, and still some money left just for a single SVS micro 3000... but I considered that (as well as the one from KEF) .. as this is wireless, I thought that positioning can be easier with them but based on the simulation I can not find too much again placing them far away from my speakers.
 

tony cosgrove

Well-known Member
These are relatively expensive here.. I can not say these are not worth the money but I can buy two BK XL200 mk2, and still some money left just for a single SVS micro 3000... but I considered that (as well as the one from KEF) .. as this is wireless, I thought that positioning can be easier with them but based on the simulation I can not find too much again placing them far away from my speakers.

There's someone in the classifieds selling two Micros in gloss white £750 each, I think, plus you can buy a wireless receiver for the sub @£ 100 however I think the seller might be including one.

You can always buy one and try it out then send it back after 30 days I think.

I always thought a sub for stereo was too much of a faff to set up but it's actually really easy the SVS APP is excellent.

The bass is present but you just don't hear it, it's quite odd but it works, I actually get a bit nauseous when the sub is turned up too much.

I honestly think that a good sub will solve your problems, there's someone selling the KEF sub for £1350 on PFM it's also gloss white a bit expensive but it does get great reviews, the Micro is tiny and you hardly notice it after a while in fact you can put it anywhere in the room.

I paid £899 from Peter Tyson for the SVS Micro about two months ago, my wife thought that I was going mad but it definitely makes a huge difference IMO.

PS, my TV has two speakers and a sub too and does sound decent but for dialogue you definitely need better the Totem mini range is exceptional value for money but apparently the sub isn't up to much relative to a Micro 3000.

Personally if I were you I'd buy the pair of minis that are in the classifieds and a mini flex for the centre and the SVS Micro, your wife will love them:D
 
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atoprak

Standard Member
There's someone in the classifieds selling two Micros in gloss white £750 each, I think, plus you can buy a wireless receiver for the sub @£ 100 however I think the seller might be including one.

You can always buy one and try it out then send it back after 30 days I think.

I always thought a sub for stereo was too much of a faff to set up but it's actually really easy the SVS APP is excellent.

The bass is present but you just don't hear it, it's quite odd but it works, I actually get a bit nauseous when the sub is turned up too much.

I honestly think that a good sub will solve your problems, there's someone selling the KEF sub for £1350 on PFM it's also gloss white a bit expensive but it does get great reviews, the Micro is tiny and you hardly notice it after a while in fact you can put it anywhere in the room.

I paid £899 from Peter Tyson for the SVS Micro about two months ago, my wife thought that I was going mad but it definitely makes a huge difference IMO.

PS, my TV has two speakers and a sub too and does sound decent but for dialogue you definitely need better the Totem mini range is exceptional value for money but apparently the sub isn't up to much relative to a Micro 3000.

Personally if I were you I'd buy the pair of minis that are in the classifieds and a mini flex for the centre and the SVS Micro, your wife will love them:D

Well, first of all ... I need to convince my self If it is going to work or not ..
But I think I will go for this BKs ... the reason is very obvious.. I can buy two of them and still have some money left comparing with the micro 3000... The only reason that I would like to go for wireless sub is to gain much better response If I position them to somewhere else..but even If move it in the simulation to possible places, I can not get better response ... so sticking with an old school makes a bit more sense (to me, for now :) .. may change next hour...) ...

I have a reasonable back yard renovation and waiting for an offer from my contractor... If I can fit in the budget, I will order right away...

If my problem stays same.. or I wont get satisfied .. I will sell everything and buy a sound bar... at least I wont complain with that :) ... it is sound bar in the end :)
 

atoprak

Standard Member
Well,

I found one BK XLS200mk2-FF in mint condition for 240€ (around 200 pounds... ) I will take it tomorrow morning and lets see how it goes. If I can not make it work, I will start to believe that nothing can be done with this living room and existing layout.. so... will think about the future...
 

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