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Have an AE700? Share your VB experiences please

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Dunkwho, Dec 3, 2004.

  1. Dunkwho

    Dunkwho
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    I've had my 700 for a week now, I'm up to 15 hours :).
    I'm concerned that my unit is showing VB more than normal and that its a particularly poor unit, I'd be grateful if any other 700 owners could share their experiences particularly with the same movie scenes to try and answer this question for me.

    WARNING
    If you're happy with your AE700's picture and don't want the possibility of seeing vertical banding (VB) stop here! Don't make the drop into these depths unless you want to or need to! :)

    The first film I watched when the 700 arrived was monsters inc - I didn't know about VB but I could see something in the image that I wasn't happy with, only that has lead me into this quest :(

    Specifics - Attach of the Clones opening 5 minutes of the movie. The big silver space ship is landing in the city and comes sweeping through the clouds as it descends, this ground positioned view shows loads of vertical lines equally spaced across the image, and as the ship lands and camera pans to follow it you can clearly see the effect of the lines on the image as the back of the ship (including the blue engines) cross these lines ... I can't avoid seeing it!

    The spy who loved me - Bond (James Bond) rides into Egypt on a camel, as they approach the camp the camera pans across the sand, your eyes follow and the lines are easily seen.

    Just about any image with long shots of flat scenery or shots including large amounts of sky bring these lines up. I've spent ages in the flicker menu moving the settings for each of the red, green, and blue screens for both desk and ceiling options (I'm using a desk setup at the moment).

    I've read lost of reports on the avsforum of totally removing this problem with flicker adjust, lowering it hugely but I haven't been able to make any dent on this problem. I'm hard power switching the unit after its cooled into standby and the fan has stopped to help VB and _not_ keeping the PJ on using only the standby\on remote control. Its not a case of being over judgemental on the picture, I've tried watching movies and watching the action rather than the image ... its still blatantly obvious!

    If my PJ is just the same as all the other 700s then fair enough, I know the limitations of the unit ... my feeling from reading other snippets is that this one is worse :(

    I've used various feeds:
    Tivo via RGB->Svid JS-Tech converter and s-video lead into the PJ
    Harmon Kardon DVD player via component
    Pioneer 656 via RGB scart
    All give the same effect.

    Thanks
    Duncan
     
  2. jamesgrahamuk

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    I absolutely agree. I have made numerous posts regarding the seemingly delusional nature of 'tweaking' VB.

    Vertical Banding is an obviously inherent problem with LCD panels which seems to be particularly prominent on the AE700. This issue, specifically pertaining to this projector, has been discussed and argued over so many times on this forum that I am sure that everyone who doesn't own a 700 is sick of it and those who do, and are experiencing VB, are left feeling frustrated.

    What I find especially frustrating is that almost every AE700/VB thread will typically provide the following responses:

    USER1: I see no VB. My unit is fantastic. Yours must be faulty.

    USER2: I had VB but was able to 'tweak' it away. (The flicker filter seems to be the popular choice here but very few people seem to be able to give any method or reason. How did they perform these 'tweaks' and, most importantly, why? It gets more arcane from here - gamma adjustments, standby and power downs, dance around the old oak under a full moon...)

    USER3: I'm getting an Z3.

    :smoke:
     
  3. CooperUK

    CooperUK
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    I don't see them on mine - perhaps a) I'm jammy or b) I wouldn't know what they were and have them but am not bothered.

    Either way I am happy....

    and not looking for evidence of VB either.
     
  4. Dunkwho

    Dunkwho
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    What would be perfect would be to find someone local with a "(1) I see no VB. My unit is fantastic. Yours must be faulty." who's willing to lend me 30 mins. I'll happily get in the car with my dvd player, cabling, pj, and disks for a side by side comparison - you're welcome to leave the room\shut your eyes incase I tip you over into the user group 2 :)

    Sadly - a Z3 can't do the size\throw ration I need ... I'm not sure that'd fix the problem anyway ! :)
     
  5. Ekko Star

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    Any flicker adjust you do should be after about 30mins of the PJ being on.

    If you try to adjust before that, then you will not be adjusting it correctly.

    Method is, getting into the service menus and into the flicker screens. Get into the green screen and adjust the settings until the screen loses the apparent flicker to your eye.

    This should greatly help reduce the visibility of the banding. They will not go 100% away as they are simply a trait of those Epson panels.

    Jumping to a Z3 doesn't solve the problem either, since that PJ uses the very same Epson panels.

    Some people get lucky and others don't, no two LCD panels are the same.

    Jump to a Sony and more chance that you will solve your VB problems.
     
  6. jamesgrahamuk

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    Well, good for you, Cooper!

    Quite amusing how those next two posts follow the order of my little skit:

    Ekko,

    I am perfectly familiar with usual forum regurgitation of warm-up times and the mechanics of flicker adjustment. The trouble is that this flicker adjust seems to have very little to do with VB at all. I fail to see how flicker adjustment (which I have done - fruitlessly and many times) can have any effect on an inherent panel problem.

    Of course, if someone can provide the science...

    The basis of the Z3 comment is one of sarcasm gleaned from my experience on these very forums - not my personal considered opinion.

    ;)

    Dunkwho,

    I think that we should make that an official challenge! Who is willing to demonstrate their 'VB free' unit to those of us here - the accursed - the VB afflicted? :)
     
  7. Darwock

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    i didn't think the standby/power off thing was under any debate.. there's no denying the difference this makes (in my case at least).

    Flicker tweak can make it worse, that's easy to prove, so I guess conversely you'd have to say you can make it better as well (although only if a persons AE700 was showing it at a worse level than normal to begin with).
     
  8. Ekko Star

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    Sorry, didn't realise you already knew how to, wasn't clear from your earlier thread !
    Having had an AE100 and AE500, I found this did improve things as have many others. It does NOT remove what is a trait of the panel. It merely reduces the apparent effect to the visible eye. Of course once you know it's there you ALWAYS know it's there. :mad:

    Try maybe going over to AVS Forums and following some long running threads to gather more of the science ?
     
  9. paulfoley

    paulfoley
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    I have owned 2 Panny Projectors with VB & have scoured all of the UK & US AV sites for advice & tried it all (about 10 ideas in all). I can reveal the best 2 things to eradicate it :

    (Drum Roll)

    Runner Up - Not having power turned on when projector is not being used.

    Winner - Get a DVD Player with DVI.


    :smashin:
     
  10. Ekko Star

    Ekko Star
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    Well the DVI one is interesting !! Does using it via that mean no VB whatsoever ?
     
  11. paulfoley

    paulfoley
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    Not completely but of all the things I tried it had the biggest effect. I have the Denon 1910 BTW & I am outputing my films at 720P (native resolution). With this setup I see no macroblocking unless I ramp the brightness right up.

    :cool:
     
  12. David Rasmussen

    David Rasmussen
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    Same panels, true. Banding on Z3? No. _No one_ have reported any banding on Z3. It is banding free. Panasonic must be doing something wrong.

    /David
     
  13. Ekko Star

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    Famous last words...if it's the same panels it's there, though the Z3 does appear to leave the factory well calibrated in this respect.

    Search on this forum or AVS will tell you people have seen it.
     
  14. Sigismund

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    Both my Z3s had noticeable VB, although the second one was worse - but also gave a sharper image.
     
  15. David Rasmussen

    David Rasmussen
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    I might be mistaken. Several reviews from professionals and users have reported no banding whatsoever. If banding is existing on some Z3s after all, it probably just means that the probability of getting a unit without banding is higher with Z3 than with AE700. I have read plenty of reviews stating no banding on Z3. I don't think I have read any that stated the same about AE700.

    /David
     
  16. paulfoley

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  17. Ekko Star

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    Not sure if you could categorically state that VB is worse on the AE700. It does appear so by the posts that occur, but then that is skewed by the fact that people will report problems on these forums. Whereas if you are by and large happy you will not post about it.

    Either way, you cannot categorically say no-banding on the Z3 as that's proven not to be true.
     
  18. Sigismund

    Sigismund
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    Strictly speaking I don't think that's a "before and after" shot... you can adjust VB from light to dark or dark to light on the Z3 though. What those pictures show is adjusting to dark, then light, then ending up somewhere in the middle. VB itself doesn't actually look like either of those shots on the Z3 - at least not on either of the two I've had. :)
     
  19. hubscher

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    Hummmm.... You must not have read many Z3 forums.... They also experience VB. Having owned one I know.... There VB adjustments though are much more intuitive, and the system seems to come a bit better calibrated.

    Because of size issues I returned my Z3. It also had VB problems (a problem of the chip I think). I rented a Hs51 and loved it... but could not bring myself to spend 4k. I finally replaced my Z3 with a panasonic. Overall I like it better than the Z3. Pixalage is better, and so on.... But, it is not intuitive to tune....

    My recomendation to everyone who reads this... If you can.... Buy the sony.... It looks 1000x better than the 700 or the z3. And, it is 100% easier to setup. It has a load of auto detect modes that are wonderful. For ease of use sony has it down.

    Other than this... I like the quality of the 700 over the z3. But, I can't find good documentation on how to tune the 700.... Argh....
     
  20. hubscher

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    Note: My pany has had "noticable" no banding problems.... If you live in North Cal, feel free to check mine out... My z3 did, but I was able to tune them out (mostly)... I am currently trying to figure out how to remove the cromatic aberations in my unit....

    The sony had 0 cromatic aberation, the z3 had only minor aberations, the pany has noticable aberations... (aka... aberations are similar in nature to the rainbow effect found in DLP projectors.)
     

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