Has Britain Now Been Marginalised In Europe?

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
Cameron has refused to agree to a new EU Treaty designed to stabilise the Euro - accordingly the 17 Eurozone nations will go it alone and sign their own 'intergovernmental deal'. However it seems that out of the 10 EU nations outside the single currency, most will sign upto the new scheme. It could end up being just Britain and Hungary that stay outside the accord.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16104275

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/8944990/EU-summit-and-debt-crisis-live.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/dec/08/david-cameron-nicolas-sarkozy-euro

Where now for Britain? Remain a sidelined player in the EU? Adopt the Euro? Leave the EU? Difficult choices ahead.
 

mitchec1

Distinguished Member
Personally we should have a referendum on EU and MP's that are elected to serve us should deal and manage the outcome. If we vote to leave EU so be it but at least we will know either way.

Both Labour & the Tories know if we start any sort finance transaction tax the city will be destroyed and so will the UK finances so I can understand why he's said no. If that means we're marginalised so be it.
 

nheather

Distinguished Member
I think he did the right thing as well.

The financial transaction tax isn't soley a 'London Tax' but the UK does get impacted the most by a long way.

The UK government have already said "fine we'll do it if it is applied world wide" that's not what is being proposed, just Europe, which means significantly the UK.

Whilst some may argue the tax isn't much and the banks derserve it, the banks are simply going to say "why should we pay when we can move our operations to Asia and not pay".

Like it or not, currently, the financial sector contributes 11% of the UK's tax income and about 10% of the GDP.

Whilst, Sarkozy is putting on a defiant face I suspect that secretly he is bricking it. This is in danager of pushing the UK towards referendum and out of the EU.

And if the they go ahead and impose the transaction tax on the Eurozone only then (1) it will be small without the 'London tax' and (2) those financial organisations in Germany etc. might decide it would be better for them to move operations to the UK.

Cheers,

Nigel
 
Can I ask a slightly more fundamental question...

If Britain was not part of the EU would that really be a bad thing.

I know it maybe eer so slightly off-topic here but it is in some small way related to Europe :)

The reason I ask is we have always had a small love / big hate relationship with Europe and the powers that we keep losing to Europe.

I am possibly being slightly niave with my thinking but we are one of the biggest contributors to Europe with the money we pump into it and I am not saying we do not get benefits because of that but if we left I do not think it would be that bad. We can still trade with Europe in the same way as we trade with America, Middle East & Far East.

A lot of people seenm to have a problem with being part of Europe both public and politicians so can someone put a counter argument against leaving the EU. Free movement round the EU maybe restricted but would it be so restricitive as to impact on the UK in a very major way?

Cheers
Col
 

johntheexpat

Distinguished Member
So, for Cameron and the Tories, the only thing that counts is the City and what they want.

Many, many people in the UK now don't trust the City, due to decades of shennanigans.

In the next election their supporters around the Home Counties may vote for them, but who else? I think what went on last night was suicide for the Tory party. (But brilliant for the Cabinets future 'Gravy Train in the City' job prospects).

Oh yes, and bad for Britain.
 
D

dovercat

Guest
How would of agreeing benefited the UK?
Surely we should only agree to things that benefit us.

The Euro zone looks likes it exists purely for the benefit of Germany (exchange rates for
exports) and France (bail out fund) with the other countries facing permanent austerity. With no Euro bond and no Euro central bank doing massive QE, what do they get out being in the Euro zone. They looked damned if they stay and damned if they try and leave.
 
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dalethecaptain

Active Member
If marginalised means that France and Germany can't subvert democracy to push through their vision of europe to the detriment of the 25 other member states then no, we are not.

What this all means is that the French and German banks are very weak, and need more capital, which will come from everyone aligning with Merkozy's taxation and VAT levels, no more low taxation like in Ireland, and absolutely no more stimulating your own economy with taxpayers money unless we do it for you.

Basically, the euro bankers can't take anymore haircuts so these will be banned at our behest.

Its little more than Germany declaring financial war on Europe, and yet again, the French have quickly climbed into bed with them.
 

Kebabhead

Novice Member
Thsi is nothing more than a typical power struggle with some countries jockying for position

No wonder Europe will never be truly united
 

nheather

Distinguished Member
And if it was decided that for the overall good of the EU there should be a Champagne tax - an additional tax on Champagne as a luxury item that is predominently purchased by the wealthy.

Would Sarkozy have said "sound's good to me, count me in".

Cheers,

Nigel
 

thegeby

Active Member
Eurozone: deficit 6.4%/debt 85.4%/growth 2011 1.5%/predicted growth 2012 0.5%
UK: deficit10.4%/debt 79.9%/growth 2011 0.7%/predicted growth 2012 0.6%

So, all in all, UK is in a somewhat worse situation than the eurozone, but benefits from a unified fiscal and budget regime, while the eurozone has at least until today a fragmented such.

In the UK the service sector represents 77% of the economy, while manufacturing is roughly 10% and other industry 12 %. Since 1992, 80% of the increase in jobs have been in the service sector. The UK service sector is also 7% of the world trade in services, of which about $75 bn to the other EU members, and the UK has a surplus in this sector. The manufacturing sector runs a deficit. In the service sector the financial industry play a important role and a vital one with regards to exports in services. It is very sensible for the UK to promote and defend trade in services.

The question regarding a financial transaction tax was outside the scope of the present meeting. Mr Cameron wanted to remove the UK from EU rules applicable to the sector. This was not accepted by the meeting, hence Mr Cameron's veto. The effect is that the financial sector remains subject to EU rules and qualified majority voting.

In my view the UK and the other EU members have benefited from an active UK engagement in taking the union forward. It would be a pity if the UK political situation prevented such an engagement.

Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion and by no means represent the views of my employer.
 
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jassco

Distinguished Member
Oh yes, and bad for Britain.
Whilst I agree that his motives were probably in the wrong place for turning this deal down, I still think he came to the correct decision and I don't understand how this is bad for Britain?

I assume when you say bad, that you mean worse than if he had signed us up to the agreement

Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion and by no means represent the views of my employer.
Was that post just copied and pasted? Otherwise I really don't get what your employer could have to do with a post on a forum (unless you were an assured advertiser).
 
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Jamezinho

Distinguished Member
Absolutely the correct decision.
 

MikeTV

Well-known Member
Well, we all knew Cameron wasn't going to sign anything yesterday. So I don't even know why they bothered to speak to him. But if the EU countries give Britain a bloody nose now, who could really blame them?
 

thegeby

Active Member
Was that post just copied and pasted? Otherwise I really don't get what your employer could have to do with a post on a forum (unless you were an assured advertiser).
No, not copied, but my employer might be miffed if I stated pontificating:devil:

I am supposed to put that on all social media stuff...
 

MikeTV

Well-known Member
I am supposed to put that on all social media stuff...
They probably mean - only when others are likely to know that you are one of their employees (eg. if you work in the AV industry, and people on the forum are likely to know that, then you probably should put in the disclaimer). But if you are posting anonymously, I doubt they care. The default assumption is that you are expressing your own opinions, and not those of anybody else!
 

MikeTV

Well-known Member
Whilst I agree that his motives were probably in the wrong place for turning this deal down, I still think he came to the correct decision and I don't understand how this is bad for Britain?
I think it depends on whether you think the EU is good for Britain or not. And obviously we are divided on the issue. But essentially Cameron is isolating Britain.

Not to mention the fact the EU is regulating their financial services sector, but Cameron isn't. Is that good for Britain? I don't believe it is.
 

BISHI

Well-known Member
The EU is a mess, the Euro zone expanded far too quickly with too few conditions for joining. The UK warned this was going at too fast a pace and decided to sit back and wait to see if there was a trainwreck........ well it happened quicker than anybody expected and our nay sayers were proved right..!
If we were in the Euro zone our predicament would be far worse and our recovery would be dependent on what Germany and France decided. Sorry for sounding like a little Englander but there is absolutely no way I would want my country being in that position. As is we can control our own economy and manage the recovery with far greater independence than any one in the Eurozone.
I'm no fan of Cameron or the UK financial sector, but it is a sector of enormous national and global significance that will contribute to our recovery.
If Germany had restrictions imposed on its car production sector or France had its incredibly generous agricultural benefits slashed you would expect a big fat continental nein/non from both. The Euro is their mess to sort out, we have quite a big one of our own thankyou very much - its just we don't have to consider the basket case economies of southern Europe in our 'fix it ' plan.
Cameron is not a politician I like, but good on him for using our veto when it needed using.
 

Wild Weasel

Well-known Member
Well I'm genuinely and pleasantly surprised Cameron actually grew a pair and stood up to these muppets.

Just watching some of the coverage and it's clear the BBC is apoplectic at what he's done and has thrown off all pretence of balance.

The bottom line is that the Euro will fail and by extension, so will the EU. They're trying to solve an economic crisis with more politics and it's not going to work.
 

MikeTV

Well-known Member
I'm no fan of Cameron or the UK financial sector, but it is a sector of enormous national and global significance that will contribute to our recovery.
I think this is the greatest myth of all. The UK financial sector isn't helping our economy, it's wrecking it. Moving bits of money around does not create wealth. All it does is make the bankers richer - at the cost of the investors, like you and me.

Sure, we need banks, and we should pay a small percentage for financial services. But the past decade should have taught us that what Wall Street and the City are doing serves no benefit to our economy, or the wider world. You can't just magic wealth out of nothing. When bankers get super rich, somene else is paying for it. And it's us.
 
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MikeTV

Well-known Member
Just watching some of the coverage and it's clear the BBC is apoplectic at what he's done and has thrown off all pretence of balance.
Well, I've been watching the BBC, and all I have seen is impartial reporting of the events. Currently they are broadcasting a live Merkel press conference.

It's funny how right-wingers always complain about left-wing media bias, and the left-wingers complain about right-wing bias.
 

Wild Weasel

Well-known Member
Blah blah isolated, blah blah blah standing alone, blah blah blah everyone else has agreed, blah blah blah a lonely figure, bah blah blah on the outside....

Waaaaahh!!!
 

MikeTV

Well-known Member
How would of agreeing benefited the UK?
Surely we should only agree to things that benefit us.
Isn't that a bit short-sighted? If you believe that the financial crisis was caused by deregulation of financial services, why wouldn't we agree to greater regulation? Isn't Cameron just being protectionist? That never works, because it just breeds protectionism by others. The whole point of the eurozone is the principle of a free market. Only time will tell what the consequences will be for our isolationism and protectionism. A worst case might be a drain of the City, as international investors move to Berlin, and their more regulated sector.
 

MikeTV

Well-known Member
Blah blah isolated, blah blah blah standing alone, blah blah blah everyone else has agreed, blah blah blah a lonely figure, bah blah blah on the outside....

Waaaaahh!!!
Well we are the only ones in the EU that haven't agreed to it. That is isolated, by definition.
 

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