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Has anyone seen both Z2 and HS20?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by docfeelgood, Dec 3, 2003.

  1. docfeelgood

    docfeelgood
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    Hi

    I'm going to order a PJ this week (finally time to take the plunge).

    I've demoed quite a few and the HS20 was the best of the LCD's, although the Hitachi PJ-TX10 was fantastic value for money.

    I see rainbows so DLP is a non-starter.

    However I cannot demo a Z2 anywhere.

    Can people who has seen/demoed/reviewed both the Z2 and HS20 give me an informed comparison.

    The Z2 is quite a bit cheaper and I don't want to spend the extra on the HS20 if I can achieve a similar level of PQ with the Z2.

    I am also concerned about the Z2 vertical banding posts.


    best regards
    :)
    Doc.
     
  2. Bristol Pete

    Bristol Pete
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    Doc,

    Personally, I would spend the extra. Every Sony machine I have seen or owned has been worth the extra cash. I had an HS2 which had the cleanest, noise and VB free LCD picture I have seen, despite the lower res and I can only assume that the HS20 will offer superb PQ and along with the HDMI input and a suitable DVD deck I suspect that the picture will be a cut above.

    I kind of think that you may end up wishing you spent the extra on the HS20 anyway. I know I would. Not discounting the Z2 here though....

    I take it that you are not looking at the Z91E anymore. I can recall you posting about this unit. Dont know if you are aware but Sharp are due to release a new DLP machine, the 200 which is similar to the Z91E but with slightly better spec and other inputs such as DVI. It looks superb.

    May be worth looking at?

    Cap:)
     
  3. Kane D Williams

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    I have read that the HDMI input of the HS20 results in overscan?
     
  4. Kramer

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    Haven't had a chance to see the HS20 yet but have spent time with the Z2.

    If it's of any use, the HS10 is a far better projector than the Z2 (flame suit on :)), so I'd imagine the HS20 should be better again.



    :smoke:
     
  5. inzaman

    inzaman
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    Hi Kramer
    Are you going to do a side by side with the Z2 and HS10 like you did with the HT1000 as i found that really informative.
     
  6. docfeelgood

    docfeelgood
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    Thanks for the advice/

    I'm off to have yet another look at the HS20 this afternoon, along with PJ-TX10, HS3 and panny 300.

    It's about time I made a decision :)
     
  7. Bristol Pete

    Bristol Pete
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    Please dont buy the Panny 300. I own this machine and whilst it is reasonable enough unit, I have seen much better PQ elsewhere.

    Dont get me wrong, its a fine PJ that is offering us a good picture but I am itching to upgrade and thats a bad sign. Cant put my finger on it but just not that happy with it overall although it has no VB, no screen door and is generally a good picture aside from a little chroma delay which can be shifted with a prog scan DVD deck.

    Do anything to wind back the clock and buy the Sharp z91e, but when the moneys gone its gone. In fact, I have been speaking to my dealer about my overall satisfaction with my unit. We are discussing a deal on a new DVD deck which they think will net a better picture as my Sony 735 is getting long in the tooth, so hopefully in early 2004 I may go for a new DVD deck. We are looking at either the Denon 2900, Arcam 88+ and the pioneer 868. However, I may draw the funds in, buy a cheaper DVD deck (sony 930) for now and put more cash towards a new PJ in the future.

    decisions, decisions..!

    Let me know what you go for. Oh and I have seen the HS3. Nice PQ.

    Cap:)
     
  8. krlock

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    projectorcentral review of the z2 would not agree that the hs10 is a better machine..... dont know about the hs20 though.

    panny ae300 was also rated better than hs10 if i remember.

    thats the reason i went for the panny, even though i love sony products....

    pjcentral says the z2 is totally groundbreaking for the price.

    of course, im just telling what i read.

    krlock
     
  9. ROne

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    Can you elaborate ...

    Having owned 5 LCD projectors now (Inlcuding Z1, and sony Vw11), I find it a bit extreme for a year old technology based projecter (HS10) to be better or FAR better than the latest sanyo model.

    You don't happen to own a HS10 do you?

    I will be looking at a Z2 soon and HS20 and would be very concerned if the HS10 was FAR better than the Z2.

    Having owned different branded projectors - it may be useful to not defend something just because you own it and assume that new model will be better again - just because its the successor to your model.
     
  10. Kramer

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    You must be new around here :D

    That's a "yes".

    Nope, not just because I own it - my honest opinion which is all I can offer.

    :smoke:
     
  11. Spacecat

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    er sorry kramer but in IMHO you have tended to display a somewhat HS10 bias over the time i have been on this site.

    Personally i find statements such as 'its much better' etc really unhelpful!! how about a reasoned fact by fact statement as to why you think it is better.

    From my understanding the HS10 sounded like a boeing 747 taking off and the bulb lasted only slightly longer than a winegum
    but maybe im bias!! PS I own neither a Z2 or an HS10!!
     
  12. GrahamC

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    My Z2 is better than any Sony HS10... :p ... (pokes the Grizzly that is Krammer with a sharp stick). :rotfl:
     
  13. docfeelgood

    docfeelgood
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    Didn't manage to see the HS3.

    Got a really good comparison between the HS20, PJ-TX10 and Panny 300 tho.

    My problem is I can't get a dem of a Z2 and I won't buy anything until I have. This is because it looks on paper to be the perfect mid-range (1.5K) LCD machine. Hence this thread :)

    Still no-one out there who can give me a hands-on (or eyes-on) comparison?

    cheers

    Doc
     
  14. Bristol Pete

    Bristol Pete
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    Where are you?

    Surely there must be a regular here who can show off their new Z2 to the Doc for a crate of beer perhaps? :D

    Also, what did you think of the PJs you saw today?

    Cap :smashin:

    PS, reading back my earlier post I sound cheesed right off with my AE300. Not really the case, just an honest appraisel. Mind you, I watched the region 1 edition U571 in DTS earlier and was reminded how well it can perform. ( maybe its an NTSC thing?)
     
  15. Kane D Williams

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    Where in the London/Kent area can I get a demo of the HS20? Preferably somewhere where the people doing the demo actually know a bit about PJ's and are using a DVI source? However, I could always take my own 365Divx for 720p, DVI output?
     
  16. ROne

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    I knew you owned a HS10 ... my sarcasm didn't shine through.

    Awww come on for such an opinion you ought to be able to offer some subjective diagnosis - ie. you must know why its far better.

    What are we talking: absolute black level, CR, colour accuracy, SD & other artifacts. How well it performed with 1:1 source? Greyscale tracking. There must be a technical reason. Maybe its VB - as the VB was quite bad on the Z1 (but I and others sussed that out)

    Your POV would be useful.

    PS. I always thought of the HS10 as an entry level sony to the VW12 - I might be wrong though.:D
     
  17. docfeelgood

    docfeelgood
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    Captain Benefit,

    A quick summary of the PJ's I demoed.

    The HS20 was by far the best of the three (which was expected).
    Great colours, excellent detail, quiet and very little screendoor.

    The Panny was surprisingly good. The colours were very good, screendoor was there but not a distraction. The soft picture would be a matter of taste as I think this takes away a little of the detail.

    The Hitachi was very good value for money. If you only had a grand or less to spend on a PJ I would recommend this - you would not be dissapointed. The colours were a bit lacking though, it had the most screendoor and the picture seemed a little 'rough' or noisy to me.

    They were all good for there pricepoints. I guess you pay for what you get with PJ's.

    If money wasn't a factor then the Sony is the easy choice.... it's a fantastic PJ.

    However the best 'compromise' or 'bang for buck' PJ of the 3 was the Panasonic.

    None of us thought (couple of mates who have PJ's or are thinking of buying came with me) that the HS20 was worth the best part of a grand more than the panny 300. An improvement yes.... but not that much.

    However, I am aware of the Panny 500 on the way and I do realise that the Z2 should be even better than the Panny 300.

    I guess I'm going to wait to see the Z2 (don't know how tho) and see what the price of the 500 is when it comes out. This will also reduce the price of the 300.

    I'll probably end up with a panny 500 or 300... without ever seeing a Z2 :)


    regards

    Doc.
     
  18. Bristol Pete

    Bristol Pete
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    Where are you in the UK?

    Surely it has to be worth a visit to Nexnix in Horsham or AV Sales in Kent - if you really need to see the Z2.

    Cap:)
     
  19. Kane D Williams

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    I wish AV-Sales has a HS20 so I could go and see them both in action, side by side! Is there anywhere in the country where both are on demo?
     
  20. Kramer

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    OK, briefly:

    Absolute black level: One of the HS10's shortcomings (but addressable - CC40R). HS10 with filter & calibrated - better than the Z2. The iris on the Z2 is, IMO, totally useless, at least through much of its range of adjustment. Closing the iris just kills lumen output.

    CR: Wasn't greatly impressed with the Z2 in this regard. HS10 better (again calibrated/filtered). Z2 about average IMO.

    Colour accuracy: Z2 will need tweaking to improve its fidelity. Out of the box, colours weren't as bold/vibrant as I expected (& hoped). Again, average - nothing more. HS10 - far better.

    Screendoor: Not too bad on the Z2 - average for a 1280x720 LCD. HS10 again far better in this regard.

    VB/FPN: HS10 100% perfect here (mine at least). Pretty pronounced vertical banding & panel noise on the Z2. These are a personal bugbear of mine.

    Noise: OK, HS10 can get quite noisy in a warm environment but not a problem for me - it's in another room. Expected the Z2 to be whisper quiet (official spec & user comments). Silent it is not. Not loud either, just average. Panasonics by comparison are, to all intents & purposes, whisper quiet in "eco" mode.

    Features/functionality: Z2 is well specced (lens shift useful for many). Has DVI etc... Nothing to complain about there.

    Reliability: HS10's reliability is questionable, Z2 not out long enough to coment one way or another.

    A nice PJ the Z2 & streets ahead of similarly priced units just 6 months ago (AE200, AE300, Z1, HS2, HS3 etc..) but not going to beat more expensive units available now.

    If it were my first projector purchase, I'd certainly be happy with the Z2. Indeed, it's a good choice also if upgrading from AE200, Z2, AE300 etc..

    Remember, all the above are IMO or IMHO. The Z2(s) I saw were basically "out of the box", fed both interlaced component & progressive component & will no doubt be improved by tweaking (as do all projectors).

    I still reckon the HS10 will better the Z2 in most areas after calibration/tweaking but I'll hopefully be able to clarify this when I've had a chance to "play" with a Z2 in my own environment.

    Re: Projector Central's assertion that the AE300 was/is better then the HS10, especially with HD material - utter rubbish. Consequently, I place very little value in anything they now say :D

    My 2p (thusfar) on the Z2 :)

    Incoming........hit the ground!
     
  21. Kramer

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    What? No comments on my "mini review" :confused:

    Or are all the new Z2 owners arming themselves for a full frontal attack over the weekend?

    :p :D
     
  22. GrahamC

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    Sorry I was watching a film..... :p
     
  23. WeirdFish

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    Kramer, I'm glad I'm not the only one who expected 'whisper' quiet to be quieter than that. I'ts not a problem just a little over optimistic on the sales pitch I feel.

    Also as impressed as I am with the lens shift feature, not to mention thankful for it, tell me again why you shouldnt put the screen & mount up before you get the PJ:blush: , but it does seem a little cheap and plasticy. The rest of the PJ seems well built its just those little wheels are a bit vague. Glad they were there tho:rolleyes:


    I think Kramers views are valid, as he says, its opinion, but like he also says he's comparing a calibrated HS10 with an out of the box Z2, plus the HS10 is still more money than a Z2. A year old Porche is still a better car than a brand new Fiesta (extreme example I know)

    BTW, thanks for the review, now stop messing about and get that Z2 calibrated and tell us how much better it is than that year old technology you use:D
     
  24. Paul D

    Paul D
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    "Rone" came on the forums about the same time as me!:lesson:

    "We", (including spacecat!) would have been running this type of thread 2-3 years ago!!!

    Does that mean we're the old buggers now?:laugh:

    Now where did i leave them slippers, and that dammed pipe...:smoke:


    :p :rotfl: :p
     
  25. GrahamC

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    A few musing on my experiences with my new Sanyo Z2. Firstly I also think the ‘silent’ claim is a bit optimistic, it is very quiet but on silent passages in films it sometimes can be noticed. The level of noise is a plus in my book, as it really has to be a silent part of the film and the frequency is at a non grating level so easily put up with.

    I do not know how colours could be any more vibrant without turning into some sort of LSD induced psychedelic trip, so another plus in my book. Nice clean images without shimmering or splodging at least over DVI. The red push noted by some does not seem to be a problem on my machine, a rosy cheeked face with look rosy but the red is not out of keeping with any other colours spectrum.

    Black level and shadow detail show at a level and range that is as good as I have ever seen with all of my favourite films so all I can say is it’s very good. VB is at a, ‘I see what they mean’ kind of level and only over large expanses of uniform colour and mainly light blues/greys but I can honestly say it doesn’t bother me a bit. Reliability is an unknown at this present time as it’s just to early.

    The Z2 is the leader in the value for money PJ race, at £1200 for this level of entertainment its magic. I have no doubt that the HS10 is a great PJ but the cost of entry was about 30% more expensive than my Sanyo which is a BIG factor when choosing.

    :smoke:
     
  26. ROne

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    When I get hold of either machines I'm going to measure this and come back here.

    My Z1 measured better than the HS10 after calibration. And absolute black level was lower as well - I can't remember the lux level - but it was lower.

    :
    What would you deem to be a decent array of 1280x720 projectors for this to be average?

    But the idea is - for people who have light controlled rooms to be able to trim the lumens which will reduce spill and output thereby lowering black level, 'cos the absolute black level is determined by the ability of the projector to block out light. Outputs on CRTs is measily compared to LCD's because they are to be set up in more or less completely blacked out environments.

    Okay you've backed up some of your points and thats useful, and I can't comment on the box yet as to I do ney have one - but rest assured I have my SMART III and other devices ready and I will be coming back on here to make you answer for everything - I hope your flame suit is very thick and your skin thicker ...

    :devil:
     
  27. Quatermass

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    I reckon Kramers been using one of the six month old Sanyo 1.5's from ebay for his comparisions :D
     
  28. Kane D Williams

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    ROne, GO ON SON!!

    Seriously, I hope you can put pay to Kramer's claims, not because I have anything against him, just that I want to know that I am doing the right thing getting a Z2 next week!

    BTW, ROne, do you live anywhere near Kent? I wouldn't mind hiring your SMART III gear off you. Does one need a PC with DVD drive to run it? You could always come round for a cup of tea and some cake and help me out!!??

    Cheers
     
  29. Kramer

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    Now that's more like it :rotfl:
     
  30. Wilster

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    Gassed up my flame thrower, ready to burn!


    [flame]
    If I could keep the H(urricane)S10 in the next room, and not mind 56Hz judder to get 1:1, I think Id be happy with an HS10 too :p Unfortunately, I dont think cutting a hole in the wall in order to install a PJ gets a high WAF score, so I have to make do with lens shift and 1:1 720p at 50 and 60 hz with no judder or tearing. O and I have a grand left over for more AV kit too :p

    Is it me, or is Kramer finally jealous of other folks PJs?
    [/flame]

    There we go, one new Z2 owners response. Hope I lived up to your expectations, and maybe even warmed your toes a little in your flame proof suit! :)
     

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