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Has anyone opened speakers? cable quality

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by Erpland, Jan 30, 2003.

  1. Erpland

    Erpland
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    Has anybody taken the back plates off of their speakers and discovered the cable running from the connectors to each speaker unit is nothing special?

    Given this scenario and the fact we are using expensive external cables and carefully grafted banana plugs, what happens to the signal when it reaches the cheaper connector plate and cheaper internal cable?

    Surely the money, time and effort we put into running high quality lengths of cable would justify changing the internals also?

    And if an argument can be made about distance but we are only using very short lengths of cable, then why not just use the same stuff as inside the speaker box? which to be honest looks pretty cheap.

    :confused:
     
  2. Alsproject

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    Yes I noticed too.

    A few years ago, I got some award winning JPW Millenium speakers.

    In order to bi-wire/bi-amp them, you would have to remove the back panel and take the jumper wires out that connect the connections. These were made out of very thin wire.

    Maybe thats why these were award winning?
     
  3. gmt steve

    gmt steve
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    I used to be in the AV trade and visited a few factories. You probably wouldn't want to see how quite a few of your 'precision' componants are made.
    Regarding your speakers, you could re-wire them internally with the same cable you use from your amp'. I did it once to a pair of Kef RDM 2s with Nordost Flatline cable. Now there's around eight hours I wish I had back.
     
  4. Boink!

    Boink!
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    GMT Steve, you saying the mod was not worth the effort then?

    Jon
     
  5. shodan

    shodan
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    Hi,

    I've often wondered this but I'm just not too sure I want to take my lovely speakers apart!!! I'd have to be convinced of an improved first.

    I will be following this thread with great interest......


    Regdz
     
  6. groundy

    groundy
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    LOL :D.
     
  7. bob007

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    Then when we've rewired the speakers we can make a start on the amps. :D
     
  8. Erpland

    Erpland
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    its true, the internal wiring and connection of amps and speakers doesnt seem to be anything special, and yet many of our amps and speakers have been recommended by audiophile magazines after thorough head to head tests and reviews, the same people who later go on to notice a wide range of differences in speaker cables, some at ridiculous prices.
    Not to mention the manufacturers have already designed and tested the product in the first place to perform and produce a certain sound.

    With the prices people are prepared to pay you would have thought there would be a 'modding scene' for Hifi people, I know there are a lot of people on here who would dig out the soldering iron without hesitation when it comes to modding PC's, Consoles etc, but the Hifi solution seems to be to throw more money at it.
    I see GMT Steve tried it but probably out of gut feeling than evidence.

    Any way the reason Im in to this at the moment is because Im about to put some skirting boards in our living room after hiding some speaker cables(yet to be chosen) for some AV rears, god I hate cables as they are, without the quality issue.
     
  9. gmt steve

    gmt steve
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    Boink,

    GMT Steve, you saying the mod was not worth the effort then?

    It was a small improvment, but it's just that Flatline Gold cable is a nightmare to work with, and I'm not very good at soldering either.
    Steve
     
  10. Phil_Yeoman

    Phil_Yeoman
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    Remember we are talking about very short runs of cable here. The reason for the speaker cable being thik enought to use on arc welder to to try and reduce signal loss over long lengths as well as to provide shielding. This prblem is hardly relvant on a pice of wire 6 inches long :)

    Phil
     
  11. Boink!

    Boink!
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    Phil,
    What was you other hand doing while you were typing that? :rolleyes: :D

    Funny really, I always thought that the wire inside speakers was top quality.

    Hm...

    / Looks at his Mission speakers questioningly...

    Nah, bound to end in tears!

    Jon
     
  12. BadAss

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    If it was going to make that much difference, dont you think the manufacturer would of made this mod allready?

    The fact is 6" of cheap cable aint going to sound in reality, any different to some expensive cable. But using long runs of decent cable will sound better than long runs of cheap.

    Another way of looking at it is this. If you use a long run say 10m of cable to one speaker @ £5 a meter your looking at £50 worth of cable. Now take into concidereation the difference in sound quality that cable will make to the sound say 5% if your lucky.

    Now if 5% difference costs you £50, 1% will cost you £10

    0.5% will cost you £5 which gives you 1m. Spit that in half for each speaker and for £5 you get a 0.25% difference. Now if anyone can hear that then they deserve a medal. Either that or you need to spend a hell of a lot more on cable to hear a difference. By the time you get a cable where you think you can hear a difference you might as well spend that money on new speakers and get an even bigger difference.

    Thats how I look at it anyway.
     
  13. ReTrO

    ReTrO
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    We did a service job on a pair of cheapish oldish speakers at work a while back. They had captive speaker cables that were of the bellwire family. This was changed to Chord Co. Carnival and they also had a pair of banana sockets fitted and the drivers and other joins were resealed in. Made a huge difference to the sound.

    Doubt just changing the wire in a decent set of speakers will make much difference though.:hiya:
     
  14. groundy

    groundy
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    Thank God I can't get into my Gallos or I might be tempted to try this :D.
     
  15. jim.rae

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    I'm not a fan of expensive cable - I just can't hear the difference and all the audio suites I work in have monitor speakers mostly fed by mains cable (not always!) and they still sound good to me.

    Having said that, I do think the length of the cable is significant and the longer the run, the better the cable should be...
     
  16. alexs2

    alexs2
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    I know the quality of the wiring inside the Nautilus 805's and thankfully it's good stuff compared to most,and as for the Krells...no worries there.....nice heavy copper busbars and high current cable runs.

    For what it's worth,B&W are one of the few manufacturers I've seen supply good quality jumpers for byapssing the biwiring posts on the speakers......most supply wire links or pressed steel links covered in chrome.
     
  17. Phil_Yeoman

    Phil_Yeoman
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    Not been one to point fingers here but as I wander around these forums I actually find people who are even more excentric than me when it comes to their setups (Honest its true:rolleyes: ) This thread has reminded me on one particular guy I met in the states (no i don't frequent AV bars :)). He basically believed in every fad that entered the market. Anyway this is how he setup his system

    Very very very thick cable ($300 per foot) direct from his amp buss bars (soldered) to his speaker crossover (soldered). he removed all the binding post and plates an ran the cable direct.

    This cable had been cryo frozen and slowly thawed to arrange the molecular crystals in a linier way ?

    He also supported the cable on these little stands about four inches above the flaw :zonked:

    He cabling costs just a tad over $40,000

    How did his system sound VERY VERY good. Would I swap him definitly not.

    Phil
     
  18. alexs2

    alexs2
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    As you've implied there,Phil,there comes a time when the means somewhat outweigh the ends(physically as well as financially in the case of that system by the description!),and it gets down to fiddling for fiddling's sake.

    My only objection in all of this would be finding low quality internal wiring in a costly product,when a little less profit margin might be better for all concerned. :)
     
  19. simonspain

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    when i first biwired my jpw ap2's (replacing basic 79 strand) with double runs of unravelled chord oddysey for the bass, and single for the tops.. it was like having a chateract removed.. incredible clarity.. i also noticed the internal wire was rubbish.

    soon after.. i drilled the plugs, soldered direct to drivers and sealed with bath sealant..

    i 'm pretty sure there was a further improvement but may be spychosematic.

    NB.. be careful not to drip solder on the driver !!

    and heres another tip >> try placing your speakers against wall at 30 degrees from facing eachother so focal point crosses well in front of listening position. very interesting as you get a perfect stereo image from almost any position (within reason).
     
  20. Mylo

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    Just a quick point, never be fooled by a cables appearance. We use Mil Spec cable all day at work, looks nothing special from the outside but costs lots and works perfectly.;)
     
  21. simonspain

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    quality cable, bi wiring and direct linking (to driver or crossover) all make an individual diffence and collectively, as long as you dont spend silly money, they are well worth the effort.

    another interesting point that if you get really techy about it, the change from one type of material to another causes a slight reduction in the integrity of the signal, even from gold to silver, and a slight increase in resistance, so if you want to be really anal, try and use silver connectors with silver calbe etc
     
  22. Crustyloafer

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    I once opened up a pair of Cyrus CLS50 speakers to replace the drive units for a customer and found they were internally wired with QED Micro cable. Pretty shocking for a £400 bookshelf speaker.

    Oh and Boink! don't worry about the cable inside your Mission speakers. No offence meant and they are pretty good speakers but all the parts in Mission speakers cost next to nothing. Even a replacement Mid/Bass drive unit for their 782SEs cost around £12 maximum.
     
  23. NickP

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    Just adding my two 1/2 pence worth…:lesson:

    It’s actually quite cheap to make a reasonable quality speaker driver, especially as most are made in the far-east and if you include the large volumes that they are made in then that brings the cost down too.

    And did you know that Loudspeakers are one of the most profitable components, example is a £400 set may only cost £50 (maybe a little bit more) plus a bit more for transportation and then it’s profit for the manufacturer, middle men and retailer. Much more profit than in other electrical goods like amps.

    Some time ago I replaced the internal wiring on my old mission 760i with quality silver cable (just happened to have some kicking around) and it did make a difference, so much so that made me keep them after going out and auditioning a number of replacements. Further improvements can be made by replacing the cross-over components with quality ones – start with the Caps.

    You should be able to notice a difference with any ‘speaker if you’re replacing bell-wire with cable that has more than 7 thin strands of copper!
     
  24. avanzato

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    FWIW I recently opened up a pair of 15 yr old Rotel speakers and they were wired with decent gauge Supra cable.

    Not being a believer in expensive cables I like the idea of the speakers being wired with something 'crappy' :laugh:
     
  25. Ed Selley

    Ed Selley
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    This thread is curiously well timed as I have attended two meetings about the flagship MS speaker for 2004 (£3.5K ish) and whether we continue to use the same internal wiring in those as normal or go a bit mad. Opinion is very divided and will probably continue to the PP stage before we make a final decision. For the record, I am in favour of a high quality internal cable.
    I remember taking a look inside the Audio Note on one occasion and finding enough silver cable to keep a branch of tiffany's happy- it is the best CD player I've ever heard so this internal wiring malarky may have a point.
     
  26. gringottsdirect

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    Recently forum member DSM posted that internals of Paradigm Servo 15 looked cheap to anyone who knows about electronics.
    Over the years I have opened up Naim, Quad, Sony ES, Yamaha, Mission, Kef, Pioneer, Arcam, Denon, Sugden, Armstrong 625, Rotel, Wharfedale, Leak, Goldring-Lenco, Philips, Panasonic, Technics, Prinzsound, Garrard, Thorens, NAD, Sonab, B & O, Sansui, Marantz, Tandberg, Revox, either hoping to fix something obvious, replace internal fuse or just out of curiosity.
    Only time I have felt disappointed / surprised was with my first Naim 250, why did it cost so much ? More than twenty years old, it still works fine, dealer says it needs re-capping, but it sounds little different to it's seven year old twin, maybe they both need an overhaul ? :D
    When I bought my Epos ES11 speakers, was told they had very long and exhaustive testing to fine tune their performance using Naim amplification, an ideal partnership, couldn't argue. When I bought my first pair of Mission 753 was told each drive unit would be less than £30 to replace, eight in total plus two HF units, erm, so why did I pay £699 per pair ? They have been a pleasure also.

    These days I do try to make sure I'm getting the best internal components and specification for my money, but sometimes the best performance comes with less than super hero build quality, same with cars ! :rolleyes:
     
  27. dts_boy

    dts_boy
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    monitor audio use qed silver anniversery inside their gold reference range - not that i care as i use m&k!!!
     

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