Has anybody read THIS?

Discussion in 'General TV Discussions Forum' started by Quickbeam, Sep 6, 2004.

  1. Quickbeam

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  2. Abstrakt

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    Good! Progressive is the way to go for the material in question (mostly sports). But how the individual members of the EBU will deliver such content to us (if at all) remains to be seen. The EBU can only provide guidelines for its members after all; it’s not a regulatory commission.
     
  3. Magsy

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    Thanks, thats a good read and not too full of technical stuff!

    I never understood the reason for 1080i anyway, 1080P yes!

    It seems to be all talk about bitrate though and how they can keep it down :( On the other hand I guess its best to have an artifact free picture at a slightly lower res and they do seem to be thinking about that.
     
  4. Goose74

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    The only annoying thing is that they are basing their decision on 720p partly on average viewing distance from the average screen. Since they are supposed to be forward thining I would have thought they would have prescribed 1080p especially considering the growing amound of PJ owners!
     
  5. Howard Pitfield

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    At least the EBU commitee (lots of BBC reps) invited Giles from BSkyB along - hopefully he ran all he way back to Isleworth with the news - and the backroom boys are bashing out the SkyHD+ set now!

    Will Euro1080 (cunningly recently changed name to HD1) revert to 720p soon?

    H :clap:
     
  6. Quickbeam

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    I couldn't help noticing the irony, though.

    The July 2004 EBU Technical Review article (link), written by Sony Europe's Director of Strategic planning, sings the praises of 1080i. Sony has a lot of money invested in interlaced equipment and won't be happy about the EBU's recommendation.

    Ringer, they can't prescribe 1080p at launch, because there is no 1080p50 capable equipment yet.
     
  7. Jeff

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    A good 9" CRT projector can do 1080p50 no problem.
     
  8. richard plumb

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    crazy.

    Progressive is good, but whats the point of moving to 720p from 576p (currently availble on DVD)? Certainly not worth changing all the broadcasting infrastructure across Europe.

    The whole documents seems ars3 about face. Talking about delivering an artifact free image at a given bitrate. Why not decide the resolution, then work out what bitrate is needed to give artifact free images!?

    Also, their graph of required resolution to saturate expected panel sizes is flawed. If you take 32" as standard, then SD is as capable of saturating that panel as 720p, so why upgrade at all?

    As for the panel argument, there are already 1080 line LCD panels out in Japan (latest issue of 'digimon station' has a special on them - very nice 45" Sharp LCD 1920x1080, yours for £5k)

    768 line displays are here now, for £400 from medion etc. They'll be in woolies soon.

    What about projector support for larger images?
     
  9. simoncope

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    576p is not available on DVD. PAL on DVD is stored at 576i - any players out there outputting a progressive image are performing de-interlacing internally before outputting the signal.

    You could use the same argument for Sky/Freeview - stick it through an external de-interlacer, and 'ta-da!' - you have 576p...

    Sorry for being a pedant.
     
  10. SeaneyC

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    Yes but "de-interlacing" a 576i DVD made from a film original to 576P is hardly rocket science is it, you're not having to "guess" detail in frames, you're merely re-creating the original information.

    The arguement for SKY/Freeview/Any other video sourced material (including DVD) through a de-interlacer isn't really in the same league IMHO.

    I agree 720P isn't a huge step up from 576P (remember our friends over the pond have had the step up from 480P) but it does definately look quite a bit better, not to mention the colour advantages compared to DVD.
     
  11. Muf

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  12. CKNA

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    It is not only vertical resolution in 720p. It has 1280 pixels per line horizontally which is a lot more than 720 for DVD. That is where detail comes from. Also DVD can only be properly deinterlaced if film based. It is impossible to deinterlace video perfectly so no matter how you look at 720p, it has hell of a more resolution than PAL.
     
  13. Quickbeam

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    I was referring to production equipment. To my knowledge there are no cameras capable of capturing 1080p resolution at 50 or 60Hz. Even if 1080p isn't used as a broadcast format for the foreseeable future, it's important for archiving and programme exchange to record in 1080p50/60, as you can derive equally high quality 1080i and 720p versions from the same 1080p source.
     
  14. Quickbeam

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    We do not get to see the full vertical resolution on PAL DVD movies even when deinterlaced, due to filtering to reduce aliasing and line twitter when viewed on an interlaced monitor. According to the EBU article moving PAL images have an effective resolution of 345 lines, less than half the vertical resolution of 720p; static images have an effective resolution of 405 lines.
     
  15. Master Rahl

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    I prefer 1080i with a good real-time de-interlacer. 1,920x1,080 is just so much better than 1,280x720. 2,073,600 pixels versus 921,600. That is 55% more real estate on the screen! The fact that it is interlaced is a negative yes, but even without a de-interlacer I think the more real estate is better, especially for movies. And since people that spend money on HD usually does the upgrade properly, most if not all will have de-interlacers.

    Oh and, the difference between a DVD (PAL or not) and 720p is the difference between light and day. Don't forget the width is 1,280 pixels!
     
  16. beeblebrox12

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    In a perfect world, where you have a perfect 1920x1080i material delivered to your perfect CRT capable of displayng 1920x1080i you win. 1080i will look better than 720p, especially for movies.

    In the real world the best you can hope for is to get 1440x1080i delivered to your CRT. And your CRT, if it's a good one, wil resolve something like 1200x900i. With the convergence issues even less than that.

    If you have a flat screen display, as it's already been mentioned, there is no way to deinterlace video (movies are OK) with 100% accuracy. Even if you have a 1080p display. The owners of 1080p displays will be able to satisfy their hunger for higher resolution with 1080p HD-DVDs and the occasional 1080p broadcast.

    People own a lot of 1080i CRT RPTVs now, but what they see is far from the maximum quality of the standard. CRT RPTVs are on their way out and will be replaced by flat screen and projection progressive based displays. So, neither today, nor in the future, will anyone be able to see in practice the theoretical advantages of 1080i over 720p.
     
  17. Master Rahl

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  18. Abit

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    Just my take on the two from the other side of the pond. Comparing two Sony screens of similar size, one a fine pitched XBR CRT and the other a Plasma. With 720 content on the Plasma and 1080i content on the CRT I feel 1080 is superior. I'm no expert like many of the guys in this forum but it seems obvious to me. I am fairly picky about picture quality in general, as I have a very strong interest in photography up to medium format, and that's what I see, regardlesss of the technicalities.

    Also, the determination and recommendations for 720P based on that distance chart is flawed, in my opinion. As with photography almost no one who is interested in the quality of a picture, still or moving, views pictures at such distances. It kind of reminds me of those new to photography and digital photography at the same time that say a 3 megapixel is good up to an 8x10 picture at least an arms length away. Using that kind of reasoning they make a case against IMax movies and the size and layout of the theater.

    Still, the 720 stuff still looks beautiful next to standard definition.
     
  19. Abit

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    CRT plasmas are popular in America. they still offer the highest quality for price ratio.
     
  20. beeblebrox12

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    The obious mistake you are making is that you assume that both sets are receiving perfect signal and are using the same technology. A really objective comparison would be if you have a perfectly mastered 720p signal from the studio, delivered at a good bitrate to the decoder and displayed on a 720p display. And a perfectly mastered 1080i signal from the studio, delivered at a good bitrate to the decoder and displayed on a 1080i display. Both displays must be using the same technology too (i.e both must be CRT or LCD or plasmas, but the same) and preferrably of the same brand and price range. This side by side comparison can NEVER happen in real life - you can't expect a 720p TV to be much better of displaying 1080i material than a 1080i TV and vice versa.
    And, I don't know what your criteria for picture quality are, but there is no way in hell that a direct projection CRT, like the Sony XBR you've been looking at, can reproduce 1920x1080i image. I doubt it can effectively do even half of the theoretical pixels. You might have liked the better colours (Sony is really good at well balanced colours), the good motion rendering, the perfect contrast and the black levels, inherent to direct view CRT sets, but none of these have anything to do with resolution (i.e. 1080i vs 720p).

    Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but those who own 1080i sets or produce 1080i professional equipment are really prepared to look away from the simple truth in order to protect their investment.
     
  21. beeblebrox12

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    What do you mean by "CRT plasma"? Never heard of such thing.
     
  22. JohnMulcahy

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    It is far too early to say what the outcome of this will be. There is a big PR war going on at the IBC right now with Sony very firmly in the 1080i camp - not least because they and other manufacturers are committed to the 1080i route for their consumer equipment for the USA and Japan. Their main argument at the moment is how are you going to convince the average consumer to fork out for 720p when there will already be lots of equipment doing 1080i, for the average joe 1080 > 720 therefore it must be better, the interlaced versus progressive technicalities will go straight over most people's heads. This is really no more than a rehash of the original arguments that ended up with both standards being used, despite the well known weaknesses of any interlaced format regardless of its underlying resolution - indeed the problems interlacing has with vertical motion get worse as the resolution increases. Having an HD format with interlacing was a dumb idea when it first came out and remains a dumb idea now, but the fact is it is out there and will not be going away any time soon.
     
  23. beeblebrox12

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    Exactly. Some of the opponents of interlaced insist that companies like Sony stop calling those standards 1920x1080i, 720x576i or 720x480i, and start using names that are more technically correct - like 1920x540i, 720x288i and 720x240i :)
     
  24. Quickbeam

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    So Sony is involved in not one but two format wars: Blu-ray versus HD-DVD, and now 1080i versus 720p in Europe.:nono:

    The thing that surprises me most in this never-ending debate is how few Americans seem to favour 720p over 1080i. Admittedly there are far fewer 720p channels to compare, and not surprisingly, most CRT owners favour 1080i, but even some plasma and DLP owners think that 1080i looks better.

    I'd expect film to look better on 1080i, but sport to look better on 720p. However, there are numerous posts on AVS and other forums to the effect that while sport on 720p is impressive, the 1080i coverage is stunning.

    One possible explanation is that assuming 1080i video is broadcast at the full horizontal resolution, when downconverted to 720p or 768p it would retain the superior horizontal colour resolution of the 1080i source. On the other hand, even when de-interlaced the vertical resolution would be less at 1080i, especially during fast motion, and if the encoder subsamples to 1440 horizontal pixels, 1080i's advantage in horizontal resolution is lost.

    As I say, it's puzzling that 720p is seen as 1080i's poor relation among Americans rather than its equal. Is it possible that the benefits of progressive scanning to perceived picture quality have been exaggerated, or has Sony gotten to the American consumer as well?
     
  25. MartinImber

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    This makes me think - when has Sony taken a route which leads to a lower quality - they always seem to support the system they consider better.

    The LCD I want / need is a 720 however!
     
  26. Master Rahl

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    Quickbeam, most HD televisions can deinterlace.
     
  27. KO.NET

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    Just reading through this thread a lot of people seem to be confused about this whole issue with 1080i-720p, or more fundamentaly the issue of Interlaced Video Vs Progressive Video. I really dont know where to begin in explaining how much of an inferior and outdated technology interlaced video is, so to make things simple, just go here :

    http://alvyray.com/DigitalTV/default.htm
     
  28. richard plumb

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    I think an important part of the argument which is being overlooked currently, is the issue of deinterlacing on displays.

    The EU document points out that 720p is good because it doesn't require displays to have a deinterlacer. But any flat panel (which they are using as the assumed target) will have to have a deinterlacer/scaler anyway, to support legacy devices.

    Sure, in theory you are then only getting 540p from 1080i material, but the reality with things like pixel plus and Wega engines etc is you will likely get 720p equivalent quality or higher, plus future support for 1080 line video (HD-DVD, whatever)

    And they should also bear in mind the other countries doing this HD stuff. Japan and the US supporting 1080i means potential economies of scale for hardware production, and certainly a lot of source material supplied in 1080i.
     
  29. Jimbo73

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    Lol, you mean like BETAMAX? :devil:
     
  30. Jonesthegas

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    I've not seen much HD material and am confused by some of what is being said.

    My CRT pj runs at 960P. For a 720P source, all I need is a good scaler. If 720P became a standard, then all I would need is a scaler - it would not need to deinterlace. A modern unit simply doing scaling would do this well I presume.

    A 1080i source would need to be deinterlaced (which is extremely difficult and only a few really expensive scalers do this properly with motion compensation I believe) and then downscaled.

    Presently my DVD source is scaled using a Lumagen HDPPro. The scaling is OK but it has many more problems deinterlacing especially PAL sources (the firmware is still officially beta so it should improve). The deinterlacing problems lead to all the picture problems I see.

    I would instinctively have said that a 720P source with a scaler would be the better option for me and probably others.

    Is this not so?

    Martin
     

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