Harriet Harman and association with a group supporting paedophilia

Discussion in 'Politics & The Economy' started by Cliff, Feb 25, 2014.

  1. Cliff

    Cliff
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    Lets clear the air to begin with.
    This is a classic battle between the Daily Mail and the Labour party. Bottom line is to disgrace Harriet Harman.

    Now that is out of the way, I look at this as another case of how views on what is acceptable and what is not has changed over the years. We see this to some extent with the DLT case. (Not J.S.)

    Harriot Harmon joined and held key rolls in the National Council for Civil Liberties (now called Liberty). Organisations that wanted more civil rights joined and campaigned. Gay rights etc. More controversially, the The Paedophile Information Exchange, and they wanted consideration to reduce the age of consent to 10.

    In 2014 where every picture of a child on TV is blurry, it would be unthinkable for a legal organisation called the Paedophile Information exchange to even exist let alone join Liberty. But that was not the case in 1978. It was considered and disapproved by the NCCL but they were still affiliated as a legit organisation.

    Shami Chakrabarti, has already issued an apology for the links with PIE..

    We are judged on today's values so she should bite the bullet and apologise for a misjudgment.

    But is it right to judge on yesterday's judgements today?
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2014
  2. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    I heard this a while ago, we're not judging ancient greek or roman values, but relatively modern Britain.

    Maybe time was seriously different back then and people have decided to put the past behind them, but I find it very difficult to accept that at any point in post war Britain, pedaphilia and at the extent that was mooted was ever considered an acceptable liberty to be espoused.

    The age of consent down to 15 or 14 I could maybe understand at a very push, especially when considering statutory rape between consenting adolescents, to punish normal behavior is not really the job of the government in my mind. But stuff like saying 4 year olds could give consent, and even babies in the most extreme cases should have made anyone move away in revulsion.
    We are talking about the people when in power pushing multiculturalism, considering any non xenophilic behaviour to be xenophobic or pulling the race card, I'm not surprised the same minds consider the liberties of some "the oppressed" to be above others "the norm".

    She has her paw prints on a number of documents supporting this peodophile organisation, and while issues of the past should not judge people of the present especially when it is decades ago and no harm has been done or at least can be attributed to the actions, apologies are just good course, and speak of humbly realizing a mistake was made
     
  3. Cliff

    Cliff
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    Yes, things were different. In the 50s and early sixties most people thought being Gay was an aberration which should be punished - and was severely. It was organizations like the NCCL which opened up discussion and laws were changed in line with people's thinking.

    I guess they were doing the same with Paedophilia but public opinion went the opposit way. To revisit the open discussion at the time is a cheap shot. Still, I don't think some of these 'liberal' were thinking straight. After all, every kid then was warned not to accept sweets from strangers and not to sit on Uncle Cyril's lap as he was a bit 'funny'.
     
  4. krish

    krish
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    Last night's Newsnight ...

    NEWSNIGHT: Harriet Harman talks exclusively...


    Harriet Harman admits paedophile group joined her civil liberties group in the 1970s - Telegraph

    STATEMENT BY HARRIET HARMAN

    In recent days I have been the subject of a politically-motivated smear campaign by the Daily Mail.

    They have accused me of being an apologist for child sex abuse, of supporting a vile paedophile organisation, of having a relaxed attitude to paedophilia and of watering down child pornography laws. These are horrific allegations and I strongly deny them all of them.

    This is not the first time the Daily Mail has made this horrible and untrue allegation. And, this is not the first time the Daily Mail has attacked me. The editor and proprietor of the Daily Mail are entitled to their political views and they are of course entitled to oppose what I stand for but they are not entitled to use their newspaper to smear me with innuendo because they disagree with me politically and hate my values.

    I sincerely hope people won't believe these smears - I suspect even the Daily Mail doesn't believe them to be true. But given the seriousness and the aggression with which the Daily Mail are pursuing me, I feel that I need to put the facts in the public domain.

    1. Allegation that I supported the lowering of the age of consent to 10

    This is not true. I supported the equalisation of the age of consent (as set out in the National Council for Civil Liberties document "priorities and strategy for the executive committee June 1981") by making the age of consent the same for homosexual as well as for heterosexual sex.

    2. Allegation that I opposed the law on incest

    This is not true. The document they refer to was written by NCCL in 1976 before I started to work there.

    3. Allegation that I was seeking to water down a proposed ban on child pornography.

    This is not true. I supported the Protection of Children Bill 1978. At the start of the document it makes clear that "The NCCL deplores the exploitation of children whether in the form of use in commercial pornography or as victims of sexual assaults".

    The submission argued for some amendments to guard against unintended consequences including:

    - Parents being criminalised for taking pictures of their children on the beach or in the bath

    - The use of pictures in sex education being criminalised

    - We also proposed that the definition of indecent was too wide and instead proposed "obscene" as indecent was very broadly defined and could include Page 3 of the Sun.

    The Mail have tried to make me guilty by way of guilt by association.

    NCCL was an organisation which anyone could apply to join and indeed any organisation could apply to be "an affiliate" on payment of a fee. When I was at NCCL there were around 6,000 members and nearly 1,000 affiliated organisations of which PIE (Paedophile Information Exchange) was one.

    Members and affiliates decided the organisation's policy at the AGM from year to year. I was aware that because NCCL opposed censorship and supported gay rights, paedophiles had sought to exploit that and use NCCL as a vehicle to make their arguments. But by the time I came to work for NCCL this vile organisation had already been vigorously challenged within the organisation. Jack Dromey was instrumental in that challenge when he took over the chair of NCCL in 1976.

    The reason I decided to go to work for NCCL was because I actively supported the work they had done and in particular the work of their women's rights committee on the Equal Pay Act, on the introduction of the Sex Discrimination Act and for greater protection of victims of domestic violence and against race discrimination.

    Since being elected to the House of Commons in 1982 and during my times in ministerial office I have always championed the rights of those subjected to sexual abuse - especially women and children.

    I hope The Daily Mail will stop this campaign of smear and innuendo against me. I have done nothing wrong and am guilty of none of their grotesque allegations.

    STATEMENT BY JACK DROMEY

    Sexual abuse of children is evil and I have always viewed paedophiles and any group associated with them as evil.

    During my time on the NCCL executive, I was at the forefront of repeated public condemnations of PIE and their despicable views. Then, when I was elected chairman, I took them on. I personally chaired the NCCL conference that, on my recommendation, refused to back by a massive majority a loathsome motion from a leading light in PIE calling on NCCL to support the so-called 'rights' of paedophiles. Indeed, my stand was denounced in a leaflet distributed by PIE to the delegates to the conference.

    Like many organisations in the 1970s, NCCL had been infiltrated but that was the moment the tide was turned. I closed the conference saying that we had to stand up for the rights of children not to be sexually abused and that adults guilty of abuse were the lowest of the low.

    I was then the first to argue that paedophiles could have no place in NCCL. =As a lifelong opponent of evil men who abuse children, the accusations of the Daily Mail are untrue and beneath contempt.
     
  5. Sonic67

    Sonic67
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    If it had been the BNP or Combat 18 wanting to affiliate back then and not PIE then I bet she would have spoken up back then.

    Hence why I think she is still in the wrong.
     
  6. Cliff

    Cliff
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    Although this is a big DM story and has been reported elsewhere such as Sky, the BBC ignored it until it became too big and they were looking stupid.

    A story is a story even if the BBC doesn't like it.
     
  7. NewMan

    NewMan
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    "Statement by Jack Dromey"... Opinion clearly drafted by Harriet "Manhating" Harperson...
     
  8. F Underwood

    F Underwood
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    How this group ever manged to be existent for 10 years between 1975 and 1985 is beyond realms of common decency, total failure of all politics but Labour looks particularly knee deep in the mire ( James Callaghan Government). Its a good example of careerist tripe that manage our democracy.
     
  9. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
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    This is but a sideshow to an even bigger scandal (but it's vaguely linked) -
    Timebomb at Elm Guest House: Pop stars, a bishop and a top politician appear on a list seized by police investigating child abuse at the London hotel in the 1980s | Mail Online
    Elm Guest House abuse scandal - Latest news updates, Reaction, Pictures, Video - Mirror Online
    Special report: Police revisit the grim mystery of Elm Guest House - Crime - UK - The Independent

    The investigation is ongoing and very slow due to it being under resourced. There is potential of a cover up that could rock the UK Establishment to the core. Or it might not.

    The Daily Mail is merely carrying on it's attack against the Labour Party that started with the attack on Ed Miliband's father. There should have been a robust response much sooner to the latest Daily Mail attack. Then let the court of public opinion decide (I dislike Harriet and co).
     
  10. sidicks

    sidicks
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    I hate Harriet Harperson with a passion, but this this is just a gossip rag using a vague connection to make a story that isn't really there and is certainly old / irrelevant news.
     
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  11. johntheexpat

    johntheexpat
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    Times change.
    Smoking used to be acceptable. Now it isn't. Love thy neighbour used to be considered funny. Now it isn't. Vegetarianism used to be considered weird. . Now it isn't. People who worked in banking were respected , as were politicians....ad infinitum

    The Daily mail hates paedophiles, but uses any excuse to print photos of young girls wearing not much (or is it only paedos with a predilection for young males that it hates?) Can you take anything it reports or campaigns about seriously?

     
  12. F Underwood

    F Underwood
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    The Daily mail is entitled to do so, dont matter how much the Daily mail gets it wrong, most of the time for me, I will support its freedom to do so. For what it prints normally I have no idea until occasions like this

    At least Shami Chakrabarti has apologized, though sadly lacking on the Liberty website.
     
  13. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    If the paper has got it all so wrong, according to the transcript of the news night interview, then surely HH will go after them for libel? But what if she doesn't?

    The period when this occurred is no excuse. Heck most of us were children then ;) And some how we should trust this woman's judgement. Yeah right. If she wins the libel case squarely I'll reconsider.
     
  14. Sonic67

    Sonic67
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    Blair has apologised for slavery and the Irish famine, odd how Harperson couldn't apologise.
     
  15. tapzilla2k

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    It's a political smear using something that's been on the internet for years. The bigger story involves a former Home Sectary and a guest house that may have been used to abuse children from the care system, celebrities, MP's etc were alleged to have been involved in the abuse. Not going to say more than that due to libel laws. The Daily Mail and other papers have touched upon it before, but not in any great detail. There is a police investigation under way as I mentioned before, but it's underfunded and making slow but steady progress.

    She's not going to, it will cost too much and if she were to lose it would damage the Labour party. So basically leave it to the court of public opinion to decide. The Daily Mail are merely reporting what other newspapers have reported in the past. They are merely trying to attempt to smear HH as a pedophile sympathizer to damage Labour in the run upto the General Election. If half the stuff on the internet is true, the Tory Party should be looking a bit nervous as well.

    Never trust any politicians judgement is my motto. We owe it to the victims of the abuse that took place back then to get to the bottom of all the allegations through the criminal justice system. But at the moment the CPS has been pretty woeful on that front. It's fairly easy to label victims as loons and so on, but until you examine their allegations forensically and then present the case in a court of Law you'll never know the truth. It's of course a catch 22, some victims are genuine and others are not. But that does not mean you can ignore them. Anyway I would say that Jimmy Saville is perhaps the tip of an Ice Berg that could shock the country to the very core. But it might not be.
     
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  16. krish

    krish
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    iirc she was a Brownite sacked from the cabinet in the early years of the Blair govt ... then made a very slow comeback at junior levels until winning the deputy leadership when Blair and Prescott departed

    Anyway, she personally has nothing to apologise for regarding this non-story, whereas on her activity since entering Parliament, yes, :censored:loads.
     
  17. Philly112

    Philly112
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    Quite. She should apologise for being a disgusting career politician with no morals or convictions. But probably not for this story. I am at heart a left of centre guy, but one who identifies with politicians with some guts. Yes, Maggie amongst them. But not the likes of Harman. She is a vile politician.

    Phil
     
  18. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    PIE, the NCCL and Harriet Harman: why she was right not to apologise | Zoe Williams | Comment is free | The Guardian

    Both the article and the CiF commentators are desperately trying to twist the world of logic like a tree twisting to a cyclone.

    Effectively she has a star trek style character shield, because she a labour mp, a women and the mail brought this to the attention of the world.

    Apparently PIE, the NCCL and Harriet Harman: why she was right not to apologise | Zoe Williams | Comment is free | The Guardian
    It is completely hilarious, UKIP gaffs are small beer compared to this, and how quickly the leftist papers get the the knives out, when 'one of their own' is complicit in helping a self titiled peodophile organisation try to get their own ends, it is simply a matter of the past or times where different, or reality distortion field engaged.

    I wonder how many office interns sign off their organisations work, the funny thing is it was apparently because the peado's paid their dues so got representation, and lobbying support.

    Not that cognitive dissociation on a planetary scale isn't unusual for Hatman, all women short lists, except for her Husband ... Maybe she hates all men apart from the one thats shagging her? What a repulsive and vile woman without an atom of humility in her.
     
  19. Sonic67

    Sonic67
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    BBC News - Hewitt 'sorry' for paedophile stance

    Former Labour Health Secretary Patricia Hewitt has apologised for having "got it wrong" in the 1970s in the row over a pro-paedophile group.


    She said the National Council for Civil Liberties was "naive and wrong" to accept claims made by the Paedophile Information Exchange that it was a campaigning and counselling organisation.
     
  20. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    So what is HH waiting for? Just displaying ongoing lack of judgement...
     
  21. Sonic67

    Sonic67
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    Interesting that is from the Gruniad.

    BBC News - How did the pro-paedophile group PIE exist openly for 10 years?

    A gay rights conference backs a motion in favour of paedophilia. The story is written up by a national newspaper as "Child-lovers win fight for role in Gay Lib".


    It sounds like a nightmarish plotline from dystopian fiction. But this happened in the UK. The conference took place in Sheffield and the newspaper was the Guardian. The year was 1975.
     
  22. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    Bloody Northerners :devil: they should all apologise :)
     
  23. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    Oi watch it!
     
  24. Sonic67

    Sonic67
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  25. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    At least she's apologized though.
     
  26. Cliff

    Cliff
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    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  27. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
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    This has been floating around on the internet for years, the David Icke forums is full of it (along with the conspiracy theories, homophobia and the Queen is a lizard overlord stuff).

    You have to wonder if there is something rotten at the core of the British Establishment, given what's come out since Jimmy Savile's true nature was revealed.
     
  28. fluxo

    fluxo
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    And only now we learn that mid-feb the pm's special advisor was arrested.
     
  29. Wardy257

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    He could be considered an expert on the subject:)
     
  30. F Underwood

    F Underwood
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    Oh I see in the same vein as catching thief's, its best to be one. So the relationship is similar to Dicaprio and Hanks in "catch me if you can".:eek:
     

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