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Harman Kardon DV25 progressive scan

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by ian_guinan, Jun 7, 2002.

  1. ian_guinan

    ian_guinan
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    I've been guilty of posting thoughts and speculations about the Harman Kardon DV25 progressive scan on various other threads off topic so thought I'd consolidate a few ideas onto its own thread.

    There is a multiregion firmware available for the european SCART version. This allegedly also allows it to do PAL progressive though I've yet to see anyone confirm this is the case.

    Hack is here with instructions;

    http://www.apache.co.uk/vision/

    If anyone here has seen this hack working then let us know how good it is.

    The manual (.pdf) is available at the US site here;
    http://www.harmankardon.com/product.asp?cat=DVD&prod=DVD 25&sType=

    Sad fact also is that a projector which sells for less than $349 in the US has somehow become £449 on the trip over the Atlantic...

    ...plus theirs is a nice silver,black and grey, ours is a nasty black and gold!

    Regards,
    Ian Guinan
     
  2. MartinCo

    MartinCo
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    actually i asked about this dvd player before and not a peep out of anyone.

    it does sound interesting and I think niklas, one of our swedish/ norwegian(?) members has actually tried the player but was not too impressed... (didn't run the picture setup though which is obviously important so could've been fixed).

    looks like the prog scan chipset is Mediamatics(?) .. used in some other models.. not faroudja or sil503/504 but should be fine.

    no chroma bug also.

    re: the pal progressive questions - it seems this player DOES definitely do it. found a web link below
    http://www.dvdstore.at/start.htm
    and also
    http://www.audioimports.com/newsletters/NW052002/HKDVD25.htm

    detailed review of the HK DVD 25 at area dvd (interesting - they also mention the "possibility" of pal prog-scan).
    http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/harmankardondvd25.shtml

    to get "translated" versions of these, goto
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&q=kardon+dvd+25+pal+progressive
    and choose the first and fourth results.

    re: the shop selling pal prog HK DVD 25.. where is the .at domain country wise? Austria maybe...?

    all in all, this looks very promising.. (just found the avsforum threads), since firmware is just a burned CDR. any releases in Europe (supposedly Sweden first) will get on the net very quickly.
     
  3. MartinCo

    MartinCo
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    bump up to get you guys interest again.

    pal progressive for less than £450 anyone?:)
     
  4. MartinCo

    MartinCo
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  5. groundy

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    Also £349 multiregion at:

    http://www.homecinemaheaven.com/

    3 months interest free too :rolleyes:. Must resist......

    No mention of Pal Progressive but Homecinemaheaven are authorised HK dealers so they might volunteer that kind of info over the phone.
     
  6. MartinCo

    MartinCo
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    I'm not sure if the pal progressive is available just yet... just that it will be coming out according to other posts.

    you just load up a CD-R so not a great hassle.

    £349 is a great price though...
     
  7. encaser

    encaser
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    Info on this has indeed been slow coming. I posted ages ago on this and only now is anything coming through. I recall only one or two posters replying back then and with pretty much the same interesting but no one knows for sure as now...
    The Apache page doesn't mention progressive, just 'zonefree' which aint nec' so?
     
  8. gringottsdirect

    gringottsdirect
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    Can't comment on the performance, but saw the HK in a store in Indiana recently for $349.00.
    £250.00 should cover it.
    Really friendly sales lady said it featured Silicon Images 503, where does that leave FMJ and 2800.
     
  9. MartinCo

    MartinCo
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    encaser... have a look at the links above.

    the two shop ones (in South Africa I think) list pal progressive as a feature. there are other posts as well.

    gringotts... we've already discussed this briefly in the other thread but...
    from reviews and hkardon's other existing progressive scan players, the chipset is a Mediamatics one. if it was a sil one, I'm pretty sure its got to have their logo on the machine - the dvd 25 doesnt.

    the (National Semiconductor) Mediamatics chip, at least in previous revisions, was not as good as a sil or faroudja but should still be a very good picture.

    no chroma bug either.

    still... £350 is excellent price-wise.
     
  10. gringottsdirect

    gringottsdirect
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    MartinCo,
    :eek: Oops...
     
  11. sirjohnofbalham

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    I spoke to a chap at HiFi Bitz and he said it was PS NTSC only and was unaware of any fix currently available for PAL PS. Unless of course you know different.
     
  12. MartinCo

    MartinCo
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    sirjohnofbalham - that's precisely what we are saying at the moment... the firmware on the web currently doesn't appear to do pal prog scan.

    however, if you look at the links near the top of the page, you will see sites already advertising it as Pal PS - so either there is firmware available, or there will be pretty soon.

    Either way, I'd expect it to appear on the internet... august or september was already mentioned on one of the other forums.

    You upgrade a HK dvd 25 by CDR so it should be easy to do.
     
  13. MartinCo

    MartinCo
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    up!.. anyone got any news on this?
     
  14. Guest

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    Hi!
    According to a review in EyeFi, a Norwegian HC magazine, the DVD25 does progPAL when upgraded with the region patch mentioned in the HCC review.

    I called the journalist and asked him if he was sure, and how he found out. He claimed to have tried it via component on a PT-AE100, a Toshiba projection TV and the Piano Plus (or Screenplay 110 -- don't remember which). While he didn't get progPAL on the Panny :)( got the menu, but picture blacked out during playback), both the Toshiba and the Piano (or Screenplay) gave progPAL.

    Hmmmm......this indicates that the Panny won't accept progPAL via component....

    I have also talked to H/K Norway, and they claim that all DVD25s sold in Norway are being patched before they're shipped to the stores. During our conversation I told the guy I talked to about the AA converter (converts signals from component to RGB => VGA -- check out http://www.audioauthority.com/aacconsumers/9a62detc.html) as a tool for hooking up the DVD25 to VGA ports. He appreciated the tip and promised me that he was going to order one ASAP, and that I could call him in August to see whether it works on progPAL/progNTSC.

    So to sum it all up;
    A colleague of mine has bought the DVD25, and he will bring it around tomorrow when I will have the chance to try it out myself on the PT-AE100 (which I own). When I've tested it, I will post the results here. However, other people's findings indicate that one will have to use a converter to enjoy progPAL on the Panny via VGA, in which case you will have to wait for my conclusion 'till August.
     
  15. MartinCo

    MartinCo
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    thanks Heimnes, some good info there.

    strange the AE100 didn't work YET - a fair few people doing pal prog to it here on the forums from various players.

    as is, still good news... will be a way around this.. there always is!

    a decent pal progressive scan player for £350 is very tempting... only £50 more than Toshiba 510.

    is there some reason that Norway & Sweden seem to be getting all this good info.. (are HK nordic?) ...
    all the pal prog scan info seems to come from there... a hacking group maybe?
     
  16. Guest

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    Don't know......smaller, flatter organisations, perhaps?
    You get to talk to service minded people that listen to customers instead of being sent around in an endless phone loop... Anyway, I'm not sure how public they want the progPAL-info to be, given that progPAL is not a part of the DVD Forum standard.... Also, there is no particular hack from the Nordic area here -- apparently the DVD25 will give progPAL when upgraded with the region patch found on a UK site.

    I'll be back! :D
     
  17. Tomas L

    Tomas L
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    Is HK DVD25 really a progressive-scan DVD-player?
    Has it a "simple" line-doubler or does it do a proper 3:2 and 2:2 pulldown detection and deinterlacing? (Inverse telecine)?

    Believe me, there is a difference! The whole idea of deinterlacing a movie is to restore the original movieframes. A SIL503/504 or a Faroudja FLI2100 will do that, a simple line-doubler will not.

    The magic words to look for is "3:2 pulldown" for NTSC and "2:2 pulldown" for PAL. So have anyone seen this in the spec:s of a HK DVD25?

    Read more here:
    Progressive Scam?

    Progressive Scan; why, how and examples
     
  18. CoolioCat

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    Excellent question!

    Everything i've read and heard so far leads me to believe that the unit is the same internal components as the DVD 50. Not good.

    I swear the electronics industry seems incapable of building a DVD player that simply DOES IT ALL. Really doesn't look all that hard on paper...
     
  19. MartinCo

    MartinCo
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    pretty sure it does have 3:2 pull down listed somewhere. remember reading it in one of the articles. see if I can find it again. not sure about the 2:2 though... wasn't this for video also and not just PAL?

    I know exactly what you mean though... Pioneer players have awful progressive abilities but some how get away with it... no pulldown at all. it can't be that difficult though.. with things like the ProV/TV-4000 doing a 3:2 pulldown to output progressively.

    as for the internals of the DVD25.. who knows? its still a NS MediaMatics chipset though we dont know if this is a different model from the DVD50. since the chipset supports DVD-A (which is meant to getting used in a future model) it possibly is a newer one. certainly they have worked on the audio side in terms of components so there are probably other new components there.

    I'd prefer to be optimistic for the time being... (especially after the Denon 2800 debacle which does have a good prog-scan chipset but ISNT necessarily a good player).

    think good thoughts.. HK would have a real winner on their hands if it does everything.
     
  20. Tomas L

    Tomas L
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    Well, Pioneer is also using the Mediamatics chipset, just like the new HK DVD25...

    I hope you are right! We Europeans really need more DVD-players with a PROPER progressive scan! But i'm not to optimistic, "3:2 pulldown" has a high marketing value and I would be very surprised if HK somehow has forgotten to mention this on the website and in the downloadable PDFs...

    Indeed.
     
  21. MartinCo

    MartinCo
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    really? didnt know that. hmmm
    I was actually talking about older Pioneer models though... 737 models and others that were marketed at a premium... £600+ originally.

    since this is a newer Mediamatics chipset, with dvd-a possible, then I'd hope they've sorted everything out with progressive scan and proper pulldowns for video & film.

    NatSemi Mediamatics cant be that bad for chipsets though.. it is being used in the Tag McLaren DVD32R for example... so they must have some good products?

    I'm still hopeful of this and maybe the Philips 963 being the first reasonably priced pal progressive scan player in Europe. fingers crossed.
     
  22. Guest

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    OK -- my turn to speculate...
    Thomas' questions are indeed good. I've followed his links & checed out National Semiconductor's website =>

    Given that the DVD25's engine is NDV8501 (we know it's ready for DVD-A although this option is 'off' on the DVD25, so it can't be NDV8401), it seems to handle Hollywood blockbusters with proper encoding flags well, but video-sourced material and material with non-standard encoding or incorrect flags are not handled as well. However, the scaling ability seems to be very good. As HT concludes;

    'If you watch a lot of video material, or material with odd encoding, or really, anything other than major hollywood releases, this chipset is not recommended.'

    Hmmmm....I wonder how it'll work with PAL material, then... I guess I'll have to see tonight.
     
  23. MartinCo

    MartinCo
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    is this definitely confirmed as the chipset?

    it could also be the 8601 or even the 8611...
    both are higher end chips than the 8501...
    (which appears to be older - and is described as an "early adopter" chipset).

    see http://www.national.com/appinfo/dvd/images/ProductFamilyFeatures_lg.gif
    and the full article at
    http://www.national.com/appinfo/dvd/hardware3.html
     
  24. Guest

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    MartinCo
    Yep -- you're right.
    I just e-mailed H/K International and asked them. Let's see if they respond.
     
  25. MartinCo

    MartinCo
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    on a brighter note... 3:2 pulldown is confirmed anyway.

    if you look at the HK dvd25 manual (link at the top of the thread),
    then you will read the following:

    "Using a high-speed, single-chip digital
    processor, the DVD 25 is capable of reconstructing
    the 3/2 pulldown effect introduced when film-based
    programs are transferred to video. In conjunction with
    precision video output DACs, the end result is a full
    60-frame-per-second image that is the closest thing
    to film this side of your local cinema."

    interestingly though... you will notice the link for the pdf file is now listed as "final REV 5-10-02" -
    so perhaps the firmware is still getting worked on.

    no mention of 2:2 pulldown for video material though (or some PAL?).
     
  26. Guest

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    Just got a reply from Harman Skandinavia -- took'em 2 hours, and I'm impressed!!!

    Anyway, the DVD25 is equipped with.....[pause for effect; drum-roll......]

    THE NEW NSC NDV8603 PANTERA II

    [...and the crowd goes wild......]
     
  27. CoolioCat

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    I thought the 8603 didn't do PROGRESSIVE? I'm very confused (but hopeful!)
     
  28. MartinCo

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    seconded to that one...the 8603 is listed as not doing progressive scan in the link at
    http://www.national.com/appinfo/dvd/images/ProductFamilyFeatures_lg.gif

    hmmm.. maybe it is using something nice like a sil or faroudja then.. you never know!

    think it will turn out to be a 8601 or 8611 though...
    the 8611 has builtin scrambling/ descrambling for DVD-Audio
    so it would make sense cost-wise for HK. less chips, less cost.

    ask them again... see what they say... nice speedy response though.

    interesting...:D
     
  29. Guest

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    I just asked them again -- hold your breath!
     
  30. Guest

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    This just in --
    My contact at H/K checked with their chief engineer, and corrected his previous statement. With no further ado;

    The DVD25 is equipped with the 8601.
     

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