1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Hardware motion compensation windvd?

Discussion in 'Desktop & Laptop Computers Forum' started by NickBull, Nov 23, 2001.

  1. NickBull

    NickBull
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Do I need to set Hardware Motion Compensation on or off for best results? I'm using a Radeon if that makes any difference.

    I've tried both setting and not really noticed much difference.

    Thanks

    Nick
     
  2. Paul D

    Paul D
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2000
    Messages:
    2,620
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Manchester
    Ratings:
    +391
    Nick.
    I leave HWMC off for a smoother/better picture.
    I believe all it does is help if you have a slow processor etc.
    Could be wrong!
     
  3. NickBull

    NickBull
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks Paul, I think it is off at the moment! Are you using Windvd 3? Some people say picture isn't as good as earlier versions, but it looks fine to me.
     
  4. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    If you look carefully you should see quite a few artefacts with HWMC switched off. Look for blocking artifacts on background walls etc.

    Jeff
     
  5. NickBull

    NickBull
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Jeff, you say I'll get artifacts with it switched OFF? Does this mean it's better to be ON or OFF.

    'I'm all confused, how long have we been drinking?'

    Cheers

    Nick
     
  6. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    HWMC should be switched on, after doing so the picture may look dark or washed out but this is just the overlay settings needing to be readjusted. The good/bad thing of digital projectors is that you can spot a problem a mile off, CRT projectors tend to mask problems and make everything look good.

    Jeff
     
  7. NickBull

    NickBull
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks Jeff,

    I'll set it on and let Roland adjust things this afternoon.

    Nick
     
  8. JohnAd

    JohnAd
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2001
    Messages:
    362
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +4
    My expereince is the opposite of Jeff's.

    I would suggest leaving HWMC off except when running at 60Hz with a lowish speed processor.

    The software "should" calculate exactly the same picture with it on or off, but I have found it to increase the studder with it on especially at rates near 72/75 Hz on both Radeons and GeForce change cards. The increase in visible blocking may be due to the either the change in brighness/contrast or bugs in the player. I think you may get better results with 2.?? on this

    John
     
  9. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    Nick, If you get the latest Radeon display drivers from www.rage3d.com and install them. You will find a new overlay tab in the adapter settings. The settings should be set to something like;

    Brightness 0
    Contrast 100
    Saturation 112
    Hue 0 (or 100 I can't remember, default anyway)
    Gamma 6

    Set this up before Roland gets in. Be careful though because some software players reset the overlay every time the program is started. Just start up VE, window it and check the overlay settings before calibrating the projector.

    Jeff
     
  10. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    Don't you just love PC's, best bet is to check for yourself, look very carefully though. Like all these things if you don't look for it you probably won't see it.

    Jeff
     
  11. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
    AVForums Founder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    13,816
    Products Owned:
    6
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Ratings:
    +9,548
    I assume 'hardware motion compensation' on the Radeon is the same as 'hardware acceleration' on the GeForce.
    If it is, I run with it OFF. When looking at the menus of MI:2 when doing an A/B with The Rock we noticed that the menus on my PC were somewhat bitty and blocky when they stopped. Turning harware acceleration off fixed this.
    As I recall it, the general consensus on the AV forums is to leave it off.
     
  12. NickBull

    NickBull
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I'll have a play before roland arrives. Knowing triffic in Leeds Roland will get there before me and be say in the cold when I get home!

    Nick
     
  13. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    Hmmm, you need to be careful when compareing menus, they are usually video rather than film. HWMC is indeed better off with video sources, but film is a different story.

    Jeff
     
  14. JohnAd

    JohnAd
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2001
    Messages:
    362
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +4
    I wouldn't trust the hardware to do any part of the MPEG decoding process. If the card's HWMC gets things right for film and wrong for video that is a bit like the chroma bug.

    HWMC is a microsoft conspiracy to use less CPU for running DVD so that the office paperclip will run along side it :)

    Seriously though, HWMC is part of the thing that used to be called PC99 and so on. I think the hardware makers bodged HWMC in in order to be compliant with this. I would guess it is not as well microcoded as it could be and is treated very much like a bolt on by the h/w manufacturers.

    The motion problems are one example the problem with video another.

    The major drive of a lot of the stuff in PC99 was to offload as much sound and videp from the CPU as possible, often into places where I shouldn't be IMHO.

    Given that we know that we don't want to run anything alongside a DVD playing I think we should have it off (Phnar phnar)

    John
     
  15. JohnAd

    JohnAd
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2001
    Messages:
    362
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +4
    Nick

    I second Jeff's point that there is only so much trust you should place in chancers like me. A HCPC can at times stop behaving like the machines they are and often take on a life of their own.

    If you listen to us at all then listen to the parameters that we think are important and then set it up how you like after at least trying the different settings for yourself.

    A classic example of this is the refesh rate thing, I like 72Hz others like 60Hz. There are problems with both it's just a question of which problem you find more annoying.

    John
     
  16. NickBull

    NickBull
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I suppose Microsoft want to free up CPU power to make up for their crap coding.

    It's all a conspiracy, if everything was coded efficiently then we wouldn't need 2gig processors!

    It's always the same, if you don't have to think about efficiency then you get lazy. I work in mainfram programming and I'm sure everything I write in inefficient cos the Mainframe will cope with CPU to spare!

    As for HWMC, I think I might leave it to the software, I have a Thunderbird 1.3 and a Radeon so it should cope with the load.

    Chers

    Nick
     
  17. NickBull

    NickBull
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I understand. I'm at 72 and 75 at the moment.

    Once I get a set up I'm happy with then it won't be touched at all!
    Honest!!!!!

    Nick
     
  18. JohnAd

    JohnAd
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2001
    Messages:
    362
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +4
    Jeff

    Which version of WinDVD did you do your HWMC on/off tests with?

    Spectre

    Annoyingly there are two different kind of hardware acceleration one is IDCT and the other is HWMC. I'm pretty sure the GeForce cards only do IDCT and the Radeons do both (if you switch on HWMC you also switch on IDCT).

    John
     
  19. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
  20. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    WinDVD 2.3, 2.6.4, 2.6.35, 2.8 and 3.0 :)

    Jeff
     
  21. JohnAd

    JohnAd
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2001
    Messages:
    362
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +4
    Nick

    I used to do mainframe programmming a while ago, cut my teeth on PL/1, t'ahhh, hardest game in the world ... Frank Sinarta ...

    OK I'll take a pound for everytime you do play with it (your setup that is) from now on! (rubs hands, waiting for instant riches)

    Or you can join Tweakers Anonymous now and start the 12 step program.

    John
     
  22. JohnAd

    JohnAd
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2001
    Messages:
    362
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +4
    Jeff

    Cheers for the link, I'll check that out.

    So quite a few versions then :)

    John
     
  23. NickBull

    NickBull
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I'm not rich enough to take you up on your 'offer' John!

    I'm just a cobol and Natural man at the moment. Hopefully have chance to learn something a bit more modern soon.

    I'm not really a technical type of programmer, more a touchey feely type, I know what works and what doesn't. But don't know why a lot of the time!

    I could work some overtime rather than tweak the HTPC and then buy a ROCK with the extra cash, and then forget about it!

    Cheers

    Nick
     
  24. JohnAd

    JohnAd
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2001
    Messages:
    362
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +4
    Jeff

    Hmmm, interesting reading that thread.

    I still think that HWMC is evil and needs to be stopped but I can see that some of the players have pretty serious bugs in their own motion comp. But the beauty of software is that this can be fixed and we can get something like the TheaterTek player which should have good MC rather than be restricted by any hardware problems.

    There is also the problem with those discussions that you don't know what tweaks people are running, the 0IRE tweak may cause banding for example, gamma can cause banding and exacibate strobing. Just too many unknowns.

    Are you getting the TT player? If so let us know what you think of it in the two modes. I'm hoping it will be close to being a reference s/w decoder so you should see little or no difference between HWMC on and off.

    John
     
  25. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    I'm tempted on TT but I don't like the fact that it's a Directshow player (I've had nothing but problems with these on my PC) and no windowed mode. Anyway I like PowerDVD XP too much. Once I'd got it setup to Bjoerns recommendations it's been great. Going back to WinDVD, now that I think about it HWMC off improved considerably once I change from 848x480 (Loewe TV) to 1024x768 (DLP projector). So scaling issues are also involved.

    Jeff
     
  26. JohnAd

    JohnAd
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2001
    Messages:
    362
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +4
    Aren't all DVD players directshow? Which ones do you think are not?

    John
     
  27. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    WinDVD and PowerDVD aren't Directshow players but they do come with Directshow filters, this allows you to use their decoders with a Directshow player such as the Windows Media player in Windows XP. Other examples of Directshow players are the ATI player, TT and Zoom player. DVD Genie has a option to turn WinDVD into a Directshow player (off by default).

    Jeff
     
  28. JohnAd

    JohnAd
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2001
    Messages:
    362
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +4
    Jeff

    Oh I see what you mean. The difference there is that the filters are not registered by default. The filters are still used in a DirectShow enviroment to display the DVD it's just that they don't make them availiable to other applications or screw up your machine.

    Yes, installing multiple DVD players can be a real pain, luckily DVDGenie comes to the rescue. Otherwise you can uninstall any filter temporarily with "regsvr32 /u ???.ax" and then "regsvr32 ???.ax" to register it again.

    John
     
  29. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    Not quite :), I shall try again. winDVD and PowerDVD (as far as I know, not sure about the latest version) normally run in 'native' mode and don't use Directshow. In DVD Genie use can switch on Directshow navigation for WinDVD which makes WinDVD use Directshow and the filters. Or at least this is my understanding of it.

    Jeff
     
  30. JohnAd

    JohnAd
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2001
    Messages:
    362
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +4
    Jeff

    As far as I know both WinDVD and PowreDVD do use DirectShow, in fact they use the very filters that DVDGenie can register. They just pick thier filters in a special way to avoid letting the directshow graph builder pick whichever one has been installed most recently.

    This is quite easy to do in reality, the latest zoomplayer does something similar so that you can build up your own graph from whichever bits you have lying around.

    The question of which features of DirectShow the players use is different question. Most of the players do funny things at the video output so that they can use hardware acceleration,but the reading stuff off the DVD and sound will be pure directshow stuff. PowerDVD uses the new video renderer which is new in directshow 8.1.

    Sorry to be pedantic ;)

    John
     

Share This Page

Loading...