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Grenfell Tower Culpability Thread.

silent ninja

Prominent Member
As I mentioned in another thread, out of respect for the dead and missing, this probably isn't a subject we should politicise, for now.
Surely it's a time for leadership by our government?

I found it shocking that people were left to their own devices after the fire. Yes the council rehoused 44 families, but that's where it ended. Residents complained of no council or local government assistance. There was a total vacuum which again was filled by charities, volunteers and fireman doing overtime from the goodness of their hearts. Isn't this a basic responsibility of a government? We're not a third world country, but expecting volunteers to shelter, feed and clothe people was truly disheartening to see last night. Seems the people who have nothing were picking up the pieces of their neighbours.

Theresa May's response has been compared to George Bush and the disdain of the establishment for poor people. Is this inaccurate?

The Guardian view on Grenfell Tower: Theresa May’s Hurricane Katrina
The Guardian view on Grenfell Tower: Theresa May’s Hurricane Katrina | Editorial
 

IronGiant

Moderator
What I mean is using a tragedy for point scoring to promote one party over another.
 

domtheone

Distinguished Member
Indeed.

There's already enough points scoring going on within the Labour Party.

Let's not stoop to those levels on here:thumbsup:
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
Surely it's a time for leadership by our government?

I found it shocking that people were left to their own devices after the fire. Yes the council rehoused 44 families, but that's where it ended. Residents complained of no council or local government assistance. There was a total vacuum which again was filled by charities, volunteers and fireman doing overtime from the goodness of their hearts. Isn't this a basic responsibility of a government? We're not a third world country, but expecting volunteers to shelter, feed and clothe people was truly disheartening to see last night. Seems the people who have nothing were picking up the pieces of their neighbours.

Theresa May's response has been compared to George Bush and the disdain of the establishment for poor people. Is this inaccurate?

The Guardian view on Grenfell Tower: Theresa May’s Hurricane Katrina
The Guardian view on Grenfell Tower: Theresa May’s Hurricane Katrina | Editorial

What I mean is using a tragedy for point scoring to promote one party over another.

Indeed.

There's already enough points scoring going on within the Labour Party.

Let's not stoop to those levels on here:thumbsup:

Just to be clear, the criticism of the Prime Minster has been led by Michael Portillo, a Conservative and ex-Defence Secretary:
PM 'didn't use humanity' during visit
 
D

Deleted member 51156

Guest
I have to agree, she's flipping useless, that's putting it mildly, zero public persona, seriously found out now. Hunt has now suggested he has some 'Sympathy' with public sector pay restraint, just give them a bloody rise fgs. It's time for the Cons to sense public feeling over the housing, health and education issues and make some positive decisions..
 

Sonic67

Banned
Could be down to her security people. We are still at a serious terror threat, so is it perfectly sensible to chuck the PM into a crowd or angry mob, as nothing could go wrong, all perfectly safe and secure, and wouldn't cause a security nightmare?
 
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Deleted member 51156

Guest
It's about perception, her actions imply she doesn't care, the general public, will not be aware of the security risks, she is the figure head and it's time for her to lead or she has to leave, now, before this incident damages hers and the Cons reputation irreversibly.
 

Sonic67

Banned
It's about perception, her actions imply she doesn't care, the general public, will not be aware of the security risks, she is the figure head and it's time for her to lead or she has to leave, now, before this incident damages hers and the Cons reputation irreversibly.
Here's Sadiq.

Sadiq Khan confronted on live TV by furious Grenfell Tower residents

An angry crowd has confronted Sadiq Khan on the scene of the Grenfell Tower disaster, demanding answers and urging that the community cannot wait a year for an independent inquiry.

The London Mayor was repeatedly interrupted by frustrated residents as he spoke on live TV on the site of the burnt out building, where at least 17 people died and scores were injured when a fierce blaze ripped through it in the early hours of Wednesday morning.

He began the press conference by saying: “Understandably, residents are very angry and concerned and have genuine questions that demand answers,” but a resident chimed in, saying: “Someone needs to be held accountable. These deaths could have been prevented.”
 

The Dude

Distinguished Member
It's about perception, her actions imply she doesn't care, the general public, will not be aware of the security risks, she is the figure head and it's time for her to lead or she has to leave, now, before this incident damages hers and the Cons reputation irreversibly.

The best form of defence is attack and if she can't get her head around this and start sticking her chin out she's only going to go further and further backwards.

Leaders gotta lead.
 
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Deleted member 51156

Guest
The best form of defence is attack and if she can't get her head around this and start sticking her chin out she's only going to go further and further backwards.

Leaders gotta lead.
Corbyn, is beating her to the punch every-time, man of the people, it's all nonsense of course but it's perception, an implication 'I am your leader and I care about you in your hour of need', so what does she do, arrives on the scene in an expensive outfit, looking tired, jaded and detached.. FGS.
Same in the election, the cons just look like a set of shop window dummies.. Leaderships implies power, authority with a gentle hand, not a dithering leader with incompetent advisors..
 

silent ninja

Prominent Member
Corbyn, is beating her to the punch every-time, man of the people, it's all nonsense of course but it's perception, an implication 'I am your leader and I care about you in your hour of need', so what does she do, arrives on the scene in an expensive outfit, looking tired, jaded and detached.. FGS.
Same in the election, the cons just look like a set of shop window dummies.. Leaderships implies power, authority with a gentle hand, not a dithering leader with incompetent advisors..
Sorry, but Corbyn has been authentic in that way his whole career. It's not a publicity stunt, that's his behaviour for decades. Man of the people? Well in my head he's the closest thing and he's been doing it for a very long time.

Sadiq got heckled but it was essential he was there and people will acknowledge his effort and respect him for that. People have reached the end of their tether, can you blame them? It's part of the job sometimes being on the wrong end. As a leader, you can't hide at home because of fear of public opinion. May could've had a secure area where a few vetted people were allowed through. Security is not an excuse given the gravity of the situation.
 

la gran siete

Distinguished Member
Sadiq Khan cannot be blamed for the tragedy that took place yesterday although it is quite understandable that some residents may turn on him.What matters now is how he reacts.Someone must be held to account and all other social housing buildings must be made safe whatever the cost Apparently Corbyn tried to pass a law last year compelling landlords to make their properties safe.The government rejected it.He also thinks that the number empty private houses in Kensington should be filled with the now homeless.That could be a good temporary solution
 

Zincubus

Prominent Member
I can't agree with the first part as Corbyn underwent what was almost a personality transplant (compared to his commons performances) when he started campaigning.

His whole campaign style is 'publicity stunt', he's a good campaigner.

McDonnell is a different matter, I think he's now suffering from the same affliction as May did and has let the success go to his head. He's gonna undo all of the good work Corbyn did recently if he's not careful.

I don't trust ANY politicians so politics aside I feel it's disgusting that Corbyn apparently tried to do some political point scoring by blaming the terrible skyscraper tragedy on Tory cutbacks ....when they're still finding corpses ..
 

The Dude

Distinguished Member
Yep, he's a fairly disgusting individual. 'Demanding answers' from the Government while there were firefighters up ladders fighting the blaze.
 

Wardy257

Prominent Member
Sadiq Khan cannot be blamed for the tragedy that took place yesterday although it is quite understandable that some residents may turn on him.What matters now is how he reacts.Someone must be held to account and all other social housing buildings must be made safe whatever the cost Apparently Corbyn tried to pass a law last year compelling landlords to make their properties safe.The government rejected it.He also thinks that the number empty private houses in Kensington should be filled with the now homeless.That could be a good temporary solution

So which part of these regulations is inadequate?

Approved Document B - Volume 2: Buildings other than dwellinghouses | Part B - Fire Safety | Planning Portal

The new Labour MP for Kensington was a board member for the company that managed the Tower for several years. She has been very quiet about that.
 
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Deleted member 13294

Guest
Apparently Corbyn tried to pass a law last year compelling landlords to make their properties safe.The government rejected it.He also thinks that the number empty private houses in Kensington should be filled with the now homeless.That could be a good temporary solution

It wasn't Corbyn, it was one of his shadow ministers.

And the proposed legislation was not about fire safety. It was about homes not fit for human habitation and extending consumer rights.

Typical labour to claim foresight and try to make political capital out of a topic that should have party politics nowhere near it.
 

rancidpunk

In Memoriam
So which part of these regulations is inadequate?

Approved Document B - Volume 2: Buildings other than dwellinghouses | Part B - Fire Safety | Planning Portal

The new Labour MP for Kensington was a board member for the company that managed the Tower for several years. She has been very quiet about that.

Firstly, the legislation only covers private landlords, completely irrelevant in this case.

Secondly, the kctmo run all publicly owned property in the Borough. She was a board member until 2012, long before this fire and long before the suspect cladding was approved; not that a board member would have anything to do with specifications at project level anyway.
I'm guessing the call not to politicise this isn't going so well.
 

Sonic67

Banned
From Theresa's point of view she might say she has announced a public enquiry and spent her time meeting the services asking what they actually needed.

Less chatting and more doing.
 
D

Deleted member 293381

Guest
His whole campaign style is 'publicity stunt', he's a good campaigner.

That aspect applies to every politically astute politician under the sun, including Jeremy Corbyn.


...But not Theresa May - she's lost it.
 

Sonic67

Banned
Looking at the BBC Live newsfeed, there seems to be a lot of coverage of an old chap with a beard, jacket no tie, scruffy. I don't think he was an expert on building or a fire/rescue/police person but the BBC must think he's terribly important to give him so much coverage. I wonder who he was? He keeps ranting on. I think he might be deranged. I later learned he was the virtue signalling leader of the opposition.

The building was knocked up by a labour council. Refurbished under rules agreed to by a labour council. Inspected initially by a labour council. No retrospection in building regs agreed by a labour council.
 

rancidpunk

In Memoriam
The building was knocked up by a labour council. Refurbished under rules agreed to by a labour council. Inspected initially by a labour council. No retrospection in building regs agreed by a labour council.

Kensington and Chelsea has always been a conservative council.
 

r1ecn

Established Member
Kensington and Chelsea has always been a conservative council.

Yep, Tory since 1964. Tower block built in 1974. But must blame Labour somehow.

How about blaming the current Labour MP, elected last week? Must be their fault surely, even though the previous MPs were all Tory too.
 

Sonic67

Banned
Kensington and Chelsea has always been a conservative council.
GLC was running London from 1965 to 1986. It was Labour in 1973 to 1977 and again from 1981. Then GLA.
 

rancidpunk

In Memoriam
GLC was running London from 1965 to 1986. It was Labour in 1973 to 1977 and again from 1981. Then GLA.

Really? You seem to be going out of your way to prove Labour are somehow to blame for this.
Even if the GLC had actually approved the plans and construction of the tower, which they didn't, that was done at a time when the Conservatives were running the GLC (1970). The fact is though it was RBKC who approved the plans and signed off the building, oversaw and approved it's renovation, all the while under Conservative control.
 

Wardy257

Prominent Member
Firstly, the legislation only covers private landlords, completely irrelevant in this case.

Secondly, the kctmo run all publicly owned property in the Borough. She was a board member until 2012, long before this fire and long before the suspect cladding was approved; not that a board member would have anything to do with specifications at project level anyway.
I'm guessing the call not to politicise this isn't going so well.

So you think that public landlords are going to follow drastically different regulations? Is there some mystical different regulations for property rented by poor people as per claims on social media?

So who would have been involved with the specifics at project level? Somebody approved this and I'm guessing it would not have been a politician. Who signed off the work as safe?
 

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