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Graphic shadowing/continuation effect problem with pio 434

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs Forum' started by wiped, Jan 9, 2004.

  1. wiped

    wiped
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    I added this to a different tread but i think it's best to create a new one.

    When there are graphic displayed (let say some graphic with white or red or blue ... (Not black) background that is for example 10 cm in height and covers half the screen horisontaly, do you then get the effect that the part of the screen not covered by the graphic (as if it would continue to the right or left, have some kind of ghost image or inverted image of the graphic? (gets brigher etc) if you have it you would know what i mean allthough it's hard to describe..
    Perhaps this is a normal plasma issue but to me it seams like a processing issue???

    I'm not sure if the effect is always there for example if there is a graphic that is covering just 10-20 % of the screen horizontaly it seams like the effect isn't there, but when it covers half or more or something like it, it's there...

    To clarify the ghost image part contiues horizontally as if the graphic would continue from left to right troughout the whole screen.

    Hope this makes sense..


    A similar effect can also be seen also you have 4/3 on and have like the ending credits of a film scrolling, you will see the effect in the gray bars to the sides. As each text line scrolls...
    Or if you use the 4/3 settings and watch some normal tv you will see the gray bars to the right and left vary in brightness etc depending on what is shown next to them...

    I would be happy if you say that this is some kind of issue where my eyes fool me...

    The effect is there with still images also so it's not something that is just there with moving images and it's not at all similar to the problem discussed with vertical ghost lines in the (another 434 problem tread). . just so that is clear.

    i also beleive the effect isn't just with graphics displayed but also with on screen images that have the correct shape and color/intensity. Perhaps the effect is there all the time but just more visible when you have some graphic on screen...
     
  2. chez

    chez
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    I get this on my 36" Panny CRT - I've got a 434 coming on Saturday, I hope I don't get it on that too!!

    If anyone wants to replicate this (or try), I get it on BBCi (text on BBC on Sky).

    If you go into it, so you've got the menu running up the right hand side of the screen, you notice it appearing next to the highlight/cursor which selects the item you want to view.

    I thought it was something inherent in CRT technology, didn't know it could happen on plasmas too!
     
  3. wiped

    wiped
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    Good example...
    For me it's atleast easy to spot, but i also have the problem discussed in the "Another Pio 434 question/problem " tread with vertical streaks at regular intervals across the screen, and some owners of the 434 write that they don't have that effect, perhaps my screen is faulty allthough i would think these kind of effects is caused by the processing so the problem could be the media box , which i have had replaced (no improvements)..


    Actully if you open the menu on the pio you can see the menu option lines continuing to the left as a shadowing effect, easy to see if you have a bright background...


    Same thing when i use my xbox and scrolls up and down in a selection in a game (where you move a square) you will se the effect to the left and right easily when you move...
     
  4. cjdshaw

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    I get this on my Pio 433HDE. Interestingly, if you set the TV to 4:3 (i.e. grey bars either side), the streaks continue onto the grey bars. This implies that it's inherent in the way the image is displayed by the screen. When I get a chance, I'll stick a DVI signal into the screen to make sure it's not the media receiver
     
  5. Diapason

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    I'm also having that problem.

    Si
     
  6. loonatic

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    This problem seems to effect all non ALiS panels in my experience but is much more pronounced on Pioneer panels IMO.

    It does not happen on LCD panels.

    As far as I know it is just a trait of plasma technology and it makes no difference what input is used.

    I had a pio 433HDE before my current panny 50" and it is much less noticable on the panny. I had a demo of the 434HDE and could still see it very clearly.

    Cheers, Lee
     
  7. MR2Harvey

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    Shush anyone would think there are advantages to ALiS panels after all, and we can't have that on this forum can we!:laugh:
     
  8. Richard QC

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    Yes I get this ghosting too on my Pioneer 434HDE.

    It is particularly noticable on strong horizontal images, take for example the ropes on a wrestling/boxing ring or solid lines on a cartoon type background (The Simpsons). Basically a ghost line continues horizontally across the screen, even if the original line stops part way across the screen. It is also quite noticable on those orange boxes sky use as program intros, especially where the orange meets the black, in this case I also noticed it on my previous TV, a Panasonic 36" CRT.

    I get it on Sky+ which I use for most of my viewing, but can't say I've noticed it on Sky Movies or DVDs.

    Could it be an artifact of the MPEG encoding or low bit rate decoding by the Sky Box on certain channels?

    Has anybody mentioned this issue to Pioneer or Sky(?) and got a response?
     
  9. Graham Sims

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    My 434 looks like it may have a decoder fault, while looking at fast moving images, on certain pictures I get blocks appearing.
    My wife was watching the salon (sad), there was someone walking across the screen, on the wall there is a mark, and when she passes the mark on the wall, it created several white blocks.
    But when I play it back in slow motion, the picture is fine.
    I also recorded the segment onto my hs2 and it was the same, definetly no blocks in slow motion.

    Is this the same sort of thing that other people are getting?

    Also scrolling vertical credits I get shadowing to the right hand side of them.

    Cheers,

    Graham
     
  10. Graham Sims

    Graham Sims
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    I forgot to say,

    I am having this problem on other programs, especially on eastenders, when there are people etc moving across the screen rapidly.

    Cheers,

    Graham
     
  11. tigermad

    tigermad
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    Graham, I don't get blocks, but the panning is terrible in eastenders.
     
  12. Brogan

    Brogan
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    Well the solution is obvious....don't watch crappy soaps...:D
    Only joking.

    I've got a 504 and can't say I've noticed this problem.
    I'll keep an out for it but not if I have to watch Eastenders.
     
  13. Graham Sims

    Graham Sims
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    Ok,

    I've taken some pictures showing the shadowing im getting, there not that good, but you can see what I mean, on picture 2+3 you can see light grey lines after the black horizontal lines at the side.

    I had Digital Video Essentials on through hdmi, and yes the sharpness is turned up a bit, but I still get the same result with it down.

    Follow the links

    Cheers.

    Graham

    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/grahamsims/4341.JPG

    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/grahamsims/4342.JPG

    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/grahamsims/4343.JPG
     
  14. loonatic

    loonatic
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    It won't make any difference what settings or what input you use you will still get the streaking effect as shown nicely by your pictures 2 & 3.

    When I had a pio 433HDE I had the guy from Pioneer come to my house and inspect my plasma. He then went away and tested it for himself on both the HDE and MXE screens and they all showed the same thing. I got my dealer to take my screen back as it was very annoying.

    I then looked around at virtually all the current plasma and LCD screens and found the streaking on all plasmas except the ALiS based units. None of the LCDs had this feature.

    Some CRT based TVs also show this effect but it does seems to vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. My Sony CRT is fine but a mates panny has it.

    Also, I have not seen it on any LCD or DLP projectors.

    It is just a trait of plasma technology...nothing you can do about it.

    It does seem to be more visible on the pio screens though as it is present on my panny but nowhere near as noticable as my old 433HDE nor as bad as the newer 434HDE.

    Cheers, Lee
     
  15. wiped

    wiped
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    Great examples , Graham Sims, it's exactly the problem i tried to describe.

    I find it very annoying since the effect is clearly visible.
    I assume that the effect is always there but more visible when having straight lines etc... so this would make the picture quality worse...

    This is something i did not see when i was out shopping for the new plasma, but it's something people should be aware of.

    It would be very interesting to see if this problem exist when watching a dvd e.g. pausing and see if dark areas next to white tend to effect the white area or not... or if it's just when there are long enough straight lines..

    anyway i will be brining this up with pioneer to get a comment from them to see if this is something they can explain or now something about. Since it'a clearly visible effect and nothing they state anywhere in the manuall it's something i guess you can have them take the plasma back for since it's clearly visible when you have time to check the picture at home.


    When i see the dirty tube effect, the buzzing and this problem i start to think that i should try to return it but, i guess most of hese issues is a plasma technology issue so if you want a plasma this is some of the problem you can be facing with any brand... Allthough it seams that these plasma issues are more visible with some brands.... :)

    Still i'm happy with the screen if i can get the dirtuytube effect and the buzzing sorted out i will be "happy" to live with the shadowing problem..

    The thing is that when watching a dvd i don't recall these problems to much when you are "in" the film.. But when you know the issues are there you occasionally are reminded about them and get annoyed for some time until you "forget" about them again...
     
  16. loonatic

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    If you watch any episode of either the Simpsons or Futurama on DVD you will see this effect.

    The only proper film I have seen it in is Aliens when Ripley is standing in front of a monitor with green scrolling text. As the text scrolls upwards you can clearly see a light streak persisting through her face corresponding to the scrolling text.

    Also, if you try connecting up a PC it was very noticable on my 433HDE so much so that I would, and did, say it was unusable.

    Cheers, Lee
     
  17. Messiah

    Messiah
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    Very happy to confirm that my new Pioneer 504HDE does not exhibit any of the issues raised here and in the other 434 thread.

    No buzzing.
    No problem pixels.
    No vertical streaking.
    No horizontal streaking.
    No dropouts.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Apologies for the camea shake (blurred images). Just took these very quickly this evening with no tripod.

    Hope you all get yours sorted soon. This set delivers the best images I have ever seen on any plasma. And the pics above (handshake aside) are from a Sky digi box feeding RGB SCART into a TiVo and RGB SCART to the Pio media box. It can only get better :smashin:

    Regards

    One VERY happy Pioneer 504HDE owner.
     
  18. wiped

    wiped
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    Thanks for the post, this kind of info makes me hope that all this can be sorted out.
    It's would be interesting to know if it's a1:st batch issue with the screen, a media box issue etc, i wonder if ANY 504 owner have these problems...
    Or if this is some kind of setup, environment issue where users that has lots of interfeerence from other electric component or something else get problems... anyway it's something that to me isnt' very logical since there seams to be very random occurances of these problems..

    Perhaps i should ask pioneer to change mine to a 504 instead... :) free of charge ofcourse... :)
     
  19. ROBERTT

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    Wiped just how bad is your vertical streaking? Can you post a few pictures so we can see the effect you are describing. How bad is it from normal viewing distance (3m+)
     
  20. wiped

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    Dont't have a digital camera...
    i see it at 4+ meeters away...

    Perhaps Diapason Who made the thread "Another Pio 434 question/problem" , have one.
    Allthough i'm not sure how easy it is to take a picture off....

    Perhaps i can draw something...
     
  21. Richard QC

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    Sorry but I don't see how you can call the Ghosting a Plasma effect when it is seen on CRT screens too??

    To be honest its no real issue, yes its noticeable on some sources, for 4 grand its quite a disgrace, but its liveable given the other benefits.

    The pan / scroll effect and blocking are digital artefacts from poor BBC, ITV feeds/encoding/bit rate on Sky as advised by many such participants on these boards.

    At first I was disappointed with my Pio, but now after tweaking settings and bedding in a bit I am quite happy, in fact very happy when its fed a decent signal, Sky Movies or DVD.

    However the buzzing problem has occured, at first my screen was silent, now it buzzes a bit from the back intermitently and gets more frequent the longer the panel is left on for, usually starts after 2-3 hours.

    The more I think about and study these problems the more I think they are due to the close proximetry between me and the plasma, 2-3 metres depending on what seat I am in. I guess if I were 4-5 meters away the buzzing would not be heard and the ghosting/blocking etc far less noticeable.

    One final thought, how do we get Sky and now Channel 4 (digital on some programs) to get rid of that awful Plasma destroying red button????
     
  22. wiped

    wiped
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    not sure if you mean the vertical streaks or the continuation of graphics...

    However i've not stated (i think) that it's a plasma only effect, just that it occurs on my pio..
    i could imagine that these kind of processing issues can occur on crt:s and aso other plasmas etc.

    however as the ghosting is there on all sources and also many pio owners claim that they don't have the problem, there must be something that can be fixed.

    Regarding living with it.. Watching soccer or something else that has lot's of movements is really bad, same thing for a dvd when you have e.g. lots of movements and it's very easy to see, i mean basically it's like watching a low resolution projector where you can see the lcd build up (kind of the same anyway). Or as if you see like 40 different panels that build up the plasma, just that they have a slight difference in brightness..


    So the problem is there with any source: component, rgb, s-video etc... and from different source hardware..

    Dont' get me wrong, other than these problems i'm very happy with the picture, i've also spend some time tweaking it....

    So if i just can get rid of the vertical streaks problem, the buzzing (the graphic continuation effect seams to be something you have to live with) it will be perfect.
     
  23. Diapason

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    Unfortunately, I don't have a digital camera, and to be honest I don't fancy my chances of being able to demonstrate the effect in a photo. I really wish I could show this effect to someone "in the know" so I could be reassured that it's not normal!

    Si
     
  24. Singh

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    I experience dropouts on input 1 and do see a ghost on the right of the image sometimes... sometimes it is more noticeable than other times...
     

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