1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Governement to resurect the ID card system .... didn't do their homework

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Ethics Gradient, May 26, 2005.

  1. Ethics Gradient

    Ethics Gradient
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2003
    Messages:
    3,680
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    aka Billy Science - Suni ojna Tas
    Ratings:
    +432
    The government want to introduce ID cards and make us all spend £93 each on them:

    shame the technology is not actually 'working' yet:


    Results from system trials

    -Facial scans worked for 69% of the "quota" group and 48% of disabled volunteers.

    -Fingerprints worked for 81% of "quota" group and 80% of disabled people, but was more successful for young people.

    -Iris scans worked for 96% of "quota" volunteers and 91% of the disabled group.

    -black participants and participants aged over 59 had lower iris enrolment success rates.

    Full story


    So Tony Blair is trying to get a law passed to force us all to use technology that doesn't actually work yet.

    I really do despair and how inpet our so called 'leaders' are.
     
  2. stevegreen

    stevegreen
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    8,727
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    in my Hymer
    Ratings:
    +984
    It suprised me that the fingerprint scans were so inaccurate. I have no problem with ID cards but i'm not really prepared to pay for them.
     
  3. Seth Gecko

    Seth Gecko
    retired member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2004
    Messages:
    3,349
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings:
    +193
    Me too - I've got a biometric scanner on my PC and provided I put my finger on it properly, it's no problem (and we're talking £35 tech here!)
     
  4. Nobber22

    Nobber22
    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,977
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Berkshire
    Ratings:
    +109
    So do you have a problem with the card or the fact that the new technology doesn't work?

    Why not ship the cards anyway? Then use the technology that does work. Nothing works? So we resort back to the other old stand-by: passwords, pin numbers, swipe strips, etc.

    Why stop the whole ID process because new technology ain't perfect yet? :confused:
     
  5. Ethics Gradient

    Ethics Gradient
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2003
    Messages:
    3,680
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    aka Billy Science - Suni ojna Tas
    Ratings:
    +432
    Because is a HUGE waste of taxpayers money on something they may end up having to scrape, amend , revise etc.

    They should not be voteing to introduce something that Does not work.


    I am agaisnt it on other principles as well.
    - security ( goverment data systems are notoriously bad )

    - they say you won't be forced to use it, but we aren't supposed to be forced to have credit cards either, but just consider the way people without them struggle to utilised modern services. Business can start saying they won't let you buy products, rent flats etc without them once they are out there, well before the goverement makes carrying them compulsory.

    the logic behind the benifits of them are flawed -- it will be just as easy to get a fallsiied ID card as to get a passport ... the cards themselves might be hard to crack - but the systems inplace for suppling them in the first place are not.
    How many times to people get doctors to sign the back of passport photos ... and its a locum thats never actuall met them.... they just take the £30 fee.

    its too much data too soon - I don't beleive our society is at a postion to use such data securley and correctly.

    If a terrorist gets into this country possing as an asylum seeker - manages to get past the normal checks and gets issued with a right to stay..... whats stopping him getting a legitamet ID card. which is supposed to be the reason we are getting them.

    What part of ID cards will stop internet credit card and sales fraud .... non of it

    Its going to turn into a massive waste of money that is simply another inconvienence for the average joe public - whislt criminals and terrorists bypass , fake and dodge their way through the loop holes ( and there will be some I stake my life on it -- just look at EVERY OTHER PROJECT the goverment has done .... especailly those envolved with technology )
     
  6. PoochJD

    PoochJD
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2000
    Messages:
    10,992
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +1,862
    Hi,

    I agree with Ethics Gradient on this one. The government wants US to foot the bill for something that IT wants, that THEY feel is good for us, and when the technology has already shown by THEM to be less than reliable! Hmmm... Another wonderful Labour idea, that's going to go tit's up as soon as it gets the go-ahead! :rotfl:

    I, too, am against the idea of compulsory ID cards.

    1) In order to get these new ID cards, we will all have to prove who we are, using current ID.
    2) Such current ID, including passports, birth certificates, bank account statements, driving licences, etc, etc, are ALL easily forged!

    So, what the government are actually saying, is that in order to prove 100%, once-and-for-all, who we all REALLY are, they want us to use ID that is currently disputable, to prove that we are who we say we are, in order to get a card that says that we are who we say we really are! And they want us to pay for it! Sorry, but that's :censored: -up!

    Also, what's to stop someone from misusing these cards in the future. If these new cards are to carry so much ID of who we are, it's going to be a godsend for the criminals in the world. All that lovely data, ready to be stolen on a single, piece of plastic! I bet they can't wait for them to be brought in! :suicide:

    At the moment, if you lose or damage one piece of ID, you can easily still prove who you are. But lose an ID card, and you're pretty much going to be :censored: ! And, in order to get a replacement ID card, how will you prove you are who you say you are, when you don't have an ID card to prove it?! WOn't you have to resort to using your old ID, like driving licences, passports, birth certificate, etc, etc... You know, the ID that was supposedly all too easily forged in the first bloody place?!


    Pooch
     
  7. Jenn

    Jenn
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    6,894
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,260
    I have to say it puzzles me why people are against ID cards.

    The reasons I've heard so far are:
    - it won't help against terrorists etc.
    - it's like Big Brother, I don't want the government to know anything
    - it will cost me money for nothing

    For the cost part I understand, they shouldn't charge such high amount (£93 ?? :eek: that's outrageous) for something mandatory. Many families just won't be able to afford it.
    But for the other two ?

    Of course it will help against terrorists ! Even if some of them use fake ID, it will be more hassle for them (maybe discouraging some) and I trust the police will have ways of detecting fakes.
    It's no secret that Britain has a high number of terrorists in hiding compared to neighbouring countries using ID cards. This is simply because in the UK, you can disappear easily and pretend to be anyone.
    I would say ID cards would even help against smaller things like fraud or taxi drivers using their cousin's driving licence etc.

    And when it comes to Big Brother:
    1. do you think the government cares about what you do in your spare time (as long as it's legal) ? If you've got nothing to hide, does it really matter?
    2. how would the fact that you have an ID card enable anyone to know what you do ? If ID cards are used in the UK like they are abroad, the only times you'd have to take them out is when doing something that needs security (getting a loan, opening an account, making sure you're old enough to buy alcohol, etc.), or if the police needs to check your identity for some reason.
    I for one would feel more secure knowing that it's more difficult for someone to pretend to be me.
    When it comes to the police making random checks, I have to say that out of all the people I know abroad, only 1 has ever been checked once and it's because he looked young and was out late at night (they asked if everything was ok and offered to drive him home, which is nice!).

    ID cards seem to work fine abroad so I don't see why we couldn't make it work in the UK. If it makes the streets safer, I'm all for it.
     
  8. Garrett

    Garrett
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2001
    Messages:
    31,306
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    The best thief you’ll never see.
    Ratings:
    +4,005
    I feel its an other step down the road to the Big Brother state.

    They have had bomb attacks in countries where they have them and they can be forged, its only the honest people they will mainly be affected as the crooks and others will know the ins and out of the problem.
     
  9. la gran siete

    la gran siete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    24,768
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Deep in the bowels of sussex where the angloargies
    Ratings:
    +1,763


    people have very fertile imagiunations when it comes to things lile ID cards
     
  10. Nobber22

    Nobber22
    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,977
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Berkshire
    Ratings:
    +109
    What Big Brother state? Can you give me an example of one? Anywhere in the world! Or is it just some fictional, irrational fear we get from books and films?

    There are dozens of other countries around the world whose electronic systems and government agencies are far more up to date and organised than the UK and I see no Big Brother there yet......S Korea ruled by a Big Brother State? Japan, Iceland or Sweden? 'Course not! BB don't exist. And there is no "step on the road" to one either.

    What are you even worried about? You think the clowns running the show in the UK are going to build a Big Brother State first? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
     
  11. overkill

    overkill
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    11,776
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Murkeyside
    Ratings:
    +1,192
    Thank you nobber. We heard the Tories being accused of it, now 'New Labour'. British govt is, and always has been, far too inept (just read around the civil servants books on ALL govts) and you can see it's a paranoid fantasy. Can anyone see a hapless buffoon like Charles Clarke 'doing a Beria'? No chance.

    If anything we should be more worried about what 'big business' has on us (already!) not 'big brother'. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Ed Selley

    Ed Selley
    AVF Reviewer

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,791
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,145
    I'm still puzzled why I should be asked to pay for something that will "save billions a year" :confused:.
     
  13. overkill

    overkill
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    11,776
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Murkeyside
    Ratings:
    +1,192
    Presumably through cutting fraud.

    In the meantime something that would help, is for shops to STOP allowing people to use chip and pin cards without having the number!! :mad: I mean what's the point!? It drives me nuts when staff say "have you got your number!". "YES, and you shouldn't let me use it if I haven't"! :rolleyes:

    *end rant* :D
     
  14. Nobber22

    Nobber22
    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,977
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Berkshire
    Ratings:
    +109
    I'm still waiting for my Barclays Card to go Chip & Pin. Still have to sign everytime..... :oops:
     
  15. PoochJD

    PoochJD
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2000
    Messages:
    10,992
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +1,862
    Hi Jenn,

    You said:
    1) Even with ID cards, you aren't necessarily going to be any safer! With every form of security, there is always going to be someone, somewhere who can find a way to hack it, break it, fake it, or otherwise misuse it. Evidence has already been shown, that this is easy enough to do (cloning of someone else's fingerprints, using clear nail varnish or other similar clear adhesives).

    2) ID cards might work fine abroad, but Britain is not Europe. Britain is far behind Europe in many things. If the British government can't even operate simple things like a quality public rail transport system; a reliable benefits system, and/or stop ordinary members of the public from being able to obtain classified government documents, then what hope are they going to have of running a National ID scheme?! Answer - no bloody chance at all!

    Oh, and of course, our current government has already proved how honest, open and reliable it is, let alone be accountable, hasn't it?! :rolleyes: I'd certainly want Tony Blair and Co telling ME that I must have an ID card, or fear imprisonment, for fear of not being able to prove who I am. Yeah, right! :mad:


    Pooch

    P.S. "Big Brother" isn't technically an actual, valid thing. However, when people use the term, we all know what it refers to, and the fact remains, the Government do want to know what we are all up to, otherwise why would be having ID cards in the first place? The government want to keep tabs on us, and are using ID cards as a "legitimate" way to do so. Yet, when they are required to be accountable to the people who voted for them, it's a completely different set of rules! Will TB need to carry an ID card with him, at all times? Will Charles Clarke, the Queen, Prince Harry or other famous individuals, or will it (as I suspect it will eventually turn out to be) one rule for us, and one rule for them?!
     
  16. tomson

    tomson
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    1,918
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Berk'amsted
    Ratings:
    +187
    You know this for a fact I take it?
     
  17. Member 55145

    Member 55145
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    12,071
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,489
    I love the idea on an ID card

    Carrying all the data needed about me (Well not actually on the card, the data will be stored in a safe place and the card has a "key" to access it)

    It can have my details such as,
    Name
    DOB
    POB
    Blood group
    NI Number
    Any health issues Allergies, full medical records etc.
    My drivers license and photo
    Incorporate all my credit/debit cards onto the one card
    Offences/probation rules i.e "know trouble maker in bars, Do not serve this customer"
    or "This person is wanted by manchester police"
    "this person is currently signed on at leicester Jobcentre"
    "This person has been employed since nov 1998 at jst electronice"
    Credit history

    the list goes on, and different places can have access codes for different parts of info.
    such as a hospital is only allowed access to medical records,
    A bar to only have access to my age credit card access and any probation orders such as being a troublemaker,
    same for shops with shoplifters
    Estate agents/car loans/rental details of outstanding credit/endorsments/etc

    I see it as a big help to the common law abiding citizen, and a hassle for the law breaking trouble makers, could also help stop people getting into bad debt.

    but of course I doubt it will go the way I want it.

    as for the technology used that is the only complaint I have, and have had it a long time, they need to get it sorted properly, the only problem with private contractors is they charge and extorsionate amount and when they have to contract they dont get the job done to the best of their ability.

    also how can this help to distinguish a fraudulant twin? blood/eyes/face/fingerprints dont help, but so what? we cant do a damn thing about it without it so why use it as a hinderance?

    get there act together and it could be great

    as for losing your card, go to a local station where they will take a blood sample, iris and fingerprint scan etc to confirm its you and bingo, another card. i think you should only pay for replacement cards NOT your first one

    EDIT: Just thought of two others.

    Have it so the cards log you in when you go into a store, no card, no entry, stop the theiving gits at tescos lol

    and at petrol pumps, have to put in your card before your allowed fuel, will stop bilkings
     
  18. Jenn

    Jenn
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    6,894
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,260
    1. Of course it can be forged, like bank notes, but how many people will actually do it ? Making it more difficult (I'm not saying impossible) to pretend you are someone else might stop a certain percentage of people doing it.
    As I just said, bank notes can be faked but you don't see 50% of the population faking money because it's dangerous and detectable.
    If it doesn't stop the hardcore criminals, it might just make their life more difficult.

    2. One has to start somewhere. As far as I know the ID card is very similar to passeport, so if they can run one they can run the other. It's just a matter on employing people to deal with the extra work.
    As a side note the rail problems can't be solved in 10 years after so many years of not investing. They would have to invest more than other countries do to try and catch up.

    All governments are rotten, not just the UK. It's a simple task to pop out an ID card when asked for it by the authorities. Seriously I don't think the country would turn into a police state where you get asked for ID 70 times a day and get taken to the station for forgetting your ID card at home.

    Look, other countries have ID cards and I can guarantee you that the government doesn't know what every single citizen is up to simply because they don't care where you buy your tins of baked beans !
    They might know who your bank account is with, what car you own, and if you own a house, but don't you think the british governmenet doesn't know that already here ?
    If you own a supermarket fidelity card, they already know more about you than an ID card would tell.
    Currently you need your passeport or driving licence + utility bills to prove your identity to someone. An ID card would be used for the same things except it fits in your wallet and weighs less.
     
  19. Ethics Gradient

    Ethics Gradient
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2003
    Messages:
    3,680
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    aka Billy Science - Suni ojna Tas
    Ratings:
    +432
    how will it stop them ? are we going to round up everyone in the UK at once and check them ...

    -- we won't be able to check the 1,000's and 1,000's of foreign nationals here on studant visa's, awaiting asylum or what ever else .... until EVERY country in the world has a SOLID SECURE system, they are NOT going to stop terrorists and fraudsters.

    Have you not worked out that we will still have to accomodate transactions with people without them ???

    if they are in hiding how do you know they are there ... and how do you know the numbers say hiding in Germany .... heheh
    Thats not exactly a 'valid' arguement ;)

    how ? are the police going to pull over every car every night ? - what about foriegn registered cars ?

    Your just assumeing it will work - without actually considering it in pratice and the potential loop holes.

    ALOT of people want to know what you do in your free time or any time for that matter - information is big business - from targeted advertising both business and politically.
    I really worry about how naive the general public are when it comes to Information and Information technology

    ....... if you've got nothing to hide .....

    the age old "fools comforter"

    people are ALWAYS interested in others that may have opposing views or cause them issues. Governements , organsiations and groups have always had corrupt elements.

    History should teach you that goverments don't always agree with people over what 'doing nothing wrong' means .... and you can find yourself on the wrong side of it suprisingly quickly.

    what if tomorrow morning the police raided EVERY home in the UK and validated all your music, video and software collection and checked for illegal copies.
    ..... and put everyone on the data base the found with forgeries as THIEVES.
    unless ofc you think thats just silly and its a silly law that doesn't really count now does it ........

    don't ever make the mistake of thinking anyone of us is completely 'innocent' and will never risk the wrath of the law.

    so what exactly was the point of having them in the first place ...
    you aren't exactly going to be going into a bar or offlicense and bing biometrically scanned at Oddbins to get that bottle of wine ..... so I could just make a fake card to validate the fake cc card for commiting fraud at all the small chain shops across the uk .....

    since its biometric scans for loans and such .... I might well be buying some special contact lenses or some print copies .... and don't think its not possible.


    'seem to work fine' thats not exactly hard facts now is it.

    - They don't magically make the streets safer

    you not going to get mugged becasue your ID card has a StarTrek force field project and inbuilt stun gun ?


    Several developed nations have been accused of conducting discriminatory practices using ID cards. The Government of Japan recently came under fire from the United Nations Human Rights Committee for this practice.

    French police have been accused of overzealous use of the ID card against blacks, and particularly against Algerians.

    Greek authorities have been accused of using data on religious affiliation on its national card to discriminate against people who are not Greek Orthodox.


    Works well elsewhere then - lets get it here.
     
  20. Ethics Gradient

    Ethics Gradient
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2003
    Messages:
    3,680
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    aka Billy Science - Suni ojna Tas
    Ratings:
    +432
    The new huge area of expansion for fraud is online - and requires NO biometric checks ......



    you don't have to carry your passport about with you every day .... and I already have a passport so why do I have to carry something else thats going to cost a small fortune.
     
  21. GrahamC

    GrahamC
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2001
    Messages:
    2,258
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Morecambe, U.K.
    Ratings:
    +67
    Very interesting interview on Channel 4 last night with a minister on the ID card proposal. The £93 is a unit cost not the cost you may be asked to pay, so old people may get a discount or may not but it does not take into account any profit that the producers of the cards may want. Running cost were estimated at 580 million pounds per year, up 9% in the last 6 months. He would not say what the estimated set up costs were for 'commercial reasons' (oldest get out cause in the book) so could be any number of billions.

    The final 'pearl' was that there are 70 enrolment centers planed with say three stations in each, estimated time to enroll 1 million people, 1 year. The number of people in the U.K. just shy of 60 million, i'll let you do the maths. You just know these centers aren't going to be open weekends and evenings so a day off work on top off the unit cost of your ID which has dubious use. The estimated savings in fraud from banks and benefits was 1.5 billion pounds. The savings on the benefit side was said to be around 10-20 million pounds only so the ordinary Joe is paying for the banks profits.

    Has anybody seen anything with a bigger 'Disaster Waiting to Happen' sign around its neck.. :(
     
  22. Jenn

    Jenn
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    6,894
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,260
    It's easy to dismiss any positive effect the ID card would have with IFs. What if the government turns into neo nazis and start killing everyone who's not blond and tall ?... Well yeah in that case...

    If I had the same attitude as you have I could actually dismiss the use of Police, the use of tax inspectors etc. since obviously the country isn't 100% perfect.

    The point is ID cards would be more beneficial than a problem.

    Why do we use passeports ? Aren't they as flawed as ID cards would be ?

    And the arguments of Big Brother wants to know what you do for marketing and political purposes.. you're the one calling people naive ?
    Well I have big news for you, Big Brother already knows what you like to do and what you buy !
    If you use anything of the following, they know ! Credit/debit card, supermarket fidelity card, online competitions or websites where you leave your address and/or phone number...

    Online fraud is a completely different problem that nobody claims the ID cards would solve.
    However tax and benefit fraud are costing far more than one guy using your identity to buy DVDs online !
     
  23. GrahamC

    GrahamC
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2001
    Messages:
    2,258
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Morecambe, U.K.
    Ratings:
    +67
    The question is not that there is tax and benefit fraud, there is, but how much help the ID card would be in that problem and from the minister the answer is not a lot. We are being asked to adopt a system that will cost so much money the powers will not give a straight answer.

    Polls say 80% of the public support the idea of an ID card system, but none of them know the true cost of this monster in cash and time. I say kill it, kill it now.

    Also the errors in the biometric scanning is all well and good when all it does is pop up a window with 'details not on record', what happens when those errors pop up a window saying ID: Buggsy 'IRA' Kelly Wanted....... :eek:
     
  24. Mr.D

    Mr.D
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    11,040
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,111
    I have heard that there are more accurate biometric targets that can be used instead of finger prints and iris patterns.

    Apparently each person has a totally unique structure and shape to their "back orrifice" and this unique pattern is readily identifiable by image recognition systems and very very problematic to fake.

    If we were to carry cards around with a relevant scan of this area we could avoid a lot of the problems associated with current detection technologies.

    Plans are afoot to introduce a trial scheme of these cards in Scotland where traditional garb makes identity verification in this manner all the easier.

    Police and other law enforcement agencies are to be issued with face masks , electric shavers and mirrored shoes to facilitate more rigorous checking techniques.

    Operation Sunshine is due to start early next year.

    Some MPs have pointed out that whilst this idea is principal could work there may be a minority of individual who lack any relevant identifying features such as the Royal Family , senior executives and Anthea Turner.
     
  25. mrtbag

    mrtbag
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    3,509
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Anywhere I want
    Ratings:
    +395
    Shouldn't it be called operation Moon - Shine?
     
  26. Jenn

    Jenn
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    6,894
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,260
    :laugh:
     
  27. Garrett

    Garrett
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2001
    Messages:
    31,306
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    The best thief you’ll never see.
    Ratings:
    +4,005
    And you point to rebuff my comment, or was that meant as in insult?
     
  28. Ethics Gradient

    Ethics Gradient
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2003
    Messages:
    3,680
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    aka Billy Science - Suni ojna Tas
    Ratings:
    +432
    its easy to dismiss guess work positive effects when we have known negative effects .... costs, evidence of missuse from other countries.

    I suppose its the fact that I have been envolved in alot of government IT projects and dispared about them from a ' state my country is in ' point of view.... while laughing my arse of all the way to the bank on the other.

    quite alot of people tend to disagree with that statement

    Because thats what we use - its and established and costed system
    ..... not a completely untested new ones that potentially is going to costs a small fortune.

    wouldn't you rather than money be spent on schools or hospitals - and just keep hold of your passport ?

    I'm well aware of whats kept data wise on people ..... its been part of my career.
    However the government system will hold a damn sight more data - and atm you have an option not to use credit cards or leave your information on websites etc.

    correct - its a different problem - but the goverment include the figures of online identity fraud both in numbers of attempts and value of the frauds to try and persuade the general public how bad it is and sell the idea of 'ID' cards......
     
  29. PoochJD

    PoochJD
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2000
    Messages:
    10,992
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +1,862
    Hi,

    I don't know why the government don't just go all the way, if they're so bloody keen on these ID cards. Instead of making us pay for cards, why don't they just damn well tatoo all of us with a unique barcode (ala the sci-fi TV show "Dark Angel"), or even just inject us all with a tracing chip, just like we do with animals?!

    The whole ID of the government wanting me to pay to prove who I am, is just totally flawed - pretty much like every other major government scheme! I personally believe, that the ID card is a bomb waiting to go off, and the more the government keep fighting to pass the ID scheme, the bigger the explosion will be, when it all goes tit's-up!

    For me, the fact remains, I don't feel I should have to carry around anything that I don't want to, like an ID card, that can easily be forged and could easily be used to aid someone in Identity Theft! If someone in authority wants to know who I am, (and have a legitimate need to know who I am), they can already contact the police, or ask me to show my passport, driving licence or birth ceertificate, or any combination of these items.

    Otherwise, the idea that at anytime, someone can ask me "Show us your ID card", and if I don't have it (for whatever reason), could - in theory at least - take me into custody, or contact authorities and ask for me to be taken into custody, until I can prove who I am, sucks big-time, and I don't want it! To me, my ID is on a need-to-know basis! And, I don't feel that people have the right to know anything about me, that I don't voluntarily choose to tell them or disclose, free of any duress or implied threats! :mad:


    Pooch
     
  30. Jenn

    Jenn
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    6,894
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,260
    I'v already said earlier in the thread that charging for the ID cards is stupid. People shouldn't have to pay for something they are forced to have.
    Regarding the cost to the government (with our tax money), I would hope they have worked out that the cost of ID cards would be paid for by the savings made on fraud etc. (think illegal work etc.).
    As we are talking about neighbouring countries, they must gain something out of having ID cards since it cost them too.

    Ok but what kind of problem exactly is it going to cause you or me (keep cost aside as I too don't think we should have to pay for it) ??

    But before the passeport existed it was an untested system and they didn't know anymore than they do now how much it would cost right ?
    How would you test it without having it established ?

    Why can't we have both ?? In France they have a pretty good health system with hospitals you're not afraid of catching a disease you didn't have to start with. And they have ID cards. And they don't pay more tax than we do.
    Obviously here it's a problem of what does the government do with our money ? I mean it's nice to be the world's second biggest holder of SCUD missiles (or whichever it is) but it would be nicer to be able to register with a dentist.


    That's why I said IF it's used the same way as abroad, the government won't know anymore than they already do. Being asked for your ID card when taking out a mortgage doesn't tell the government something they wouldn't know: you have a mortgage for £xxx with Bank Y.
    Ok, you have the choice not to use a credit card. But you have to have car and home insurance. Ever noticed you get advertisement for insurance just before yours is due to be renewed ?
    You are registered with a doctor, a dentist (if you're lucky enough), gas, electricity etc. You might have loans. What more is there to know ?

    Well then it's the government who's using the wrong tools. It doesn't mean ID cards are a bad idea though.
    That said some websites ask for a photocopy of ID when ordering something online (they did for my mobile). Of course it can be forged with some work, but your credit card can be stolen, your cheques too, and we still use them.
     

Share This Page

Loading...