Got to store and noticed problems in some plasmas

[Nektarios]

I don't want this to start a flame war or anything so please don't bash me for this.

As I written in a previous thread, I am about to buy a plasma, either a Panasonic or a Samsung. I chose plasma because everyone who knows about PQ tells me to buy a plasma and not LCD and I got convinced. I really want a deep black and wide viewing angles with correct colour.

But today I got to a big store here in Greece where it has many, and I mean many, tvs for display (hundreds!). It has many areas divided per manufacturer, like Panasonic, Samsung, LG, Sony etc. etc. and they carry all their models in "good" setup.

I looked mainly for the Panasonic and Samsung ones, where I spend 1.5 hours of tingling with the settings and observe their PQ, it had the tx-50v10e, the g10e, the s10 and the x10 even the pz58 was there.

After close observation and much to my surprise I noticed extreme problems with all of them and I am very surprised about them. Because I could not photograph them, I made illustrations with a paint program to explain what I saw.

* WARNING * THE PICTURES BELOW ARE NOT REAL, I DRAW THEM UP TO ILLUSTRATE THE PROBLEMS I SAW

Motion ghosting



In high framerate sources (like football and video/tv) I clearly saw what I call motion ghosting. Every moving object left a miniscule trail of orange/purple ghosting in the opossite direction of its movement. This was evident and I could clearly see it.

Motion spikes



That was the biggest problem of the Panasonic displays, totally unacceptable and horrible motion spikes leaving a trail in the opposite direction of a high brightness (white) moving objects. As you can see in the picture I draw above, this problem is absolutely horrible and I am sure it really is a defect rather than a technology flaw. (look in the picture pillars and the text at the bottom)


Horrendous Grainy dithering



All Panasonic plasmas had evident grainy dithering that is very ugly, not only it looks bad but it also is moving and flickers which degrades the image quality 10 fold.

Flickering

Well I cannot draw a picture to illustrate the flickering, but I really saw it and it was there all the time, all the plasmas from all manufacturers had it. It is evident especially when you look away from the screen, it flickers like a 60hz old CRT!

I hope that the above problems was because of faulty screens and not because of plasma technology limitations and flaws. I cannot understand how what I saw is considered as the best PQ, that is surely not how a tv should look like let alone a picture with top-of-the-line quality.

 

[duncfunk]

How can you be sure they were in a 'good' setup mode? Most stores will have the set in store mode which turns brightness up high and the settings will be far from accurate. Were all of your observations made under bright store lighting? Were the problems with the Panasonics evident on the LG's and Samsung's?

The only way to really test a set is to view it in a proper demo room with low level or no lighting. Also you should get hold of the remote control and play with the settings yourself (get some rough settings off this site). To help decide you should ideally get a plasma and an lcd side by side to see the differences.

 

[Nektarios]

How can you be sure they were in a 'good' setup mode? Most stores will have the set in store mode which turns brightness up high and the settings will be far from accurate. Were all of your observations made under bright store lighting? Were the problems with the Panasonics evident on the LG's and Samsung's?

The only way to really test a set is to view it in a proper demo room with low level or no lighting. Also you should get hold of the remote control and play with the settings yourself (get some rough settings off this site). To help decide you should ideally get a plasma and an lcd side by side to see the differences.

That's why I quoted the "good" because I know that they don't/can't really setup them up like in a home environment where the plasma shines. I know and I saw the deep blacks, the nice colours, ofcourse they have it. This thread is about the specific problems that I enumerated and I don't see how a home/low brightness setting would eliminate the motion spikes or the grainy dithering. These have nothing to do with the ambient setting and/or brightness settings of the displays, they are clearly unrelated artifacts.

 

[Berties]

All of those artefacts can be created, either by using motion interpolation, excessive sharpness, incorrect drive mode, incorrect de-interlacing mode.

Although a bad set could still have them with correct settings, for example cheaper panels use dithering to attempt to reproduce that colour, I noticed it on a Samsung. And I noticed some grey trails also, but on a LCD as well depending on the scene- might not notice it for a week but certain bit shows it up.

 

[paulr2006]

That's why I quoted the "good" because I know that they don't/can't really setup them up like in a home environment where the plasma shines. I know and I saw the deep blacks, the nice colours, ofcourse they have it. This thread is about the specific problems that I enumerated and I don't see how a home/low brightness setting would eliminate the motion spikes or the grainy dithering. These have nothing to do with the ambient setting and/or brightness settings of the displays, they are clearly unrelated artifacts.

I seriously think you need to buy an LCD as I can't see a plasma pleasing you One thing that is worthy of note is that with regard to your motion ghosting; did the TV have IFC switched on? if so that is your answer! although it is supposed to help with motion it does actualy give artifacts around an object just as most manufacturers motion processing does.

With regard to the Grainy dithering; are you sure this was not the source? as I don't see it on mine!

 

[Nektarios]

I seriously think you need to buy an LCD as I can't see a plasma pleasing you One thing that is worthy of note is that with regard to your motion ghosting; did the TV have IFC switched on? if so that is your answer! although it is supposed to help with motion it does actualy give artifacts around an object just as most manufacturers motion processing does.

With regard to the Grainy dithering; are you sure this was not the source? as I don't see it on mine!

No I really want to get a plasma, I have a Sharp 32" LCD already and I don't like it, it has NO blacks at all, it's gray and horrible and the viewing angles, oh that is a joke! I just want to eliminate the problems I saw above before I try my luck with one, and I want to try.

As for the dithering, I saw a g10 right beside a LCD on which played the exact same HD content (same source) and it had no dithering whatsoever, the difference was just like the picture I draw. Maybe with lower brightness it goes away?

 

[emrysdavies]

Did you ask for an explanation from the store staff re the tv's very disappointing performance?

 

[Berties]

That isn't dithering, it's excessive processing, in dynamic mode, or sharpness. Knock down sharpness and that'll disappear.

Anyway the only way of seeing is calibrating each screen yourself, in your own home. Plasma pixels do fizzle but you have to be pretty close to see it, that Samsung did it more than the Pioneer.

 

[Berties]

Did you ask for an explanation from the store staff re the tv's very disappointing performance?

Answer will be "This TV is running latest version of Windows"

 

[Nektarios]

All of those artefacts can be created, either by using motion interpolation, excessive sharpness, incorrect drive mode, incorrect de-interlacing mode.

Although a bad set could still have them with correct settings, for example cheaper panels use dithering to attempt to reproduce that colour, I noticed it on a Samsung. And I noticed some grey trails also, but on a LCD as well depending on the scene- might not notice it for a week but certain bit shows it up.

So the Motion Spikes (white lines after a white object/text) that I illustrate on my second image, are just an interlace/deinterlace artifact? If so then the matter is solved, the fault was in the source.

Can someone confirm this?

Did you ask for an explanation from the store staff re the tv's very disappointing performance?

Last time I talked with staff in a big store like that, I got into a big fight telling me that LED backlight TVs are really LED TVs and NOT LCD, so after that I will not even bother to get into a conversation with them anymore.

 

[tele1962]

So the Motion Spikes (white lines after a white object/text) that I illustrate on my second image, are just an interlace/deinterlace artifact? If so then the matter is solved, the fault was in the source.

Can someone confirm this?



Last time I talked with staff in a big store like that, I got into a big fight telling me that LED backlight TVs are really LED TVs and NOT LCD, so after that I will not even bother to get into a conversation with them anymore.

Sounds like the motion spikes were at the source.
This can happen on the PS3 when it is set to video instead of auto.