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Got my replacement 963 - NOT IMPRESSED!

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Underscore, Mar 10, 2003.

  1. Underscore

    Underscore
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    OK, for those that can remember that long ago, I have been having a lot of lip-sync problems with my 963. Philips suggested a replacement so 7oaks put in an order for a replacement - which took 3+ weeks to arrive (fair enough for such a popular machine.) Anyway, I swapped them over on Saturday and noticed that the box had been opened and resealed (using the same tape as the original.) When I opened the box, the batteries were rolling about in the bottom of the box and the mains lead had been shoved down the edge of the box against the front of the player - with the pins touching the facia, which is now covered in scratches and gouges!:mad: Given that this is not a model that 7oaks stock and that the tape is the same as the original, I'm fairly convinced that Philips has sent it out like this, which is not acceptable.

    BTW, the lip-sync is improved on some films but is still present on others and there is now a faint yellow line on pale scenes about 4 inches in from the left-hand edge of the screen and about 1-1.5 inches wide. :rolleyes:

    Hey ho,

    [Edit - Thread title altered. I know you may be annoyed, but please watch your language. Using "*'s" to get around the swearword filter is not permitted. Thanks, Kelvin.]
     
  2. puddleduck

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    Sorry to hear that - I got my 963SA on Import back in November, and its a cracker, but it seems a bit hit or miss if you get a "good one" or not.

    There are quite a few reports of lines down the left hand side, which suggests to me there is some quality control problem at Philips.

    Its a real shame, as the machine is fantastic when they work....
     
  3. Costas

    Costas
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    Underscore

    Please check other threads on this machine in this forum. I think a few others have got the thin line you are talking about ..
     
  4. gringottsdirect

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    Seems your player has already been rejected by a customer, maybe your dealer obtained it from another, rather than Philips directly ?
    It's worth trying a brand new sealed 963, mine is perfect.
    You are the second forum member to have been sent an opened box, although from a different dealer. :rolleyes:
     
  5. TimD

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    And I must be the third...

    I'm on my second 963SA, the first also came in a box which had been previously opened and then re-sealed with the same type of tape.

    It had the stripes on the left hand edge of the screen, and the eject button had been damaged.

    I'm very happy with the replacement, and also with unbeatable's service.

    Tim
     
  6. Underscore

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    Spoke to Philips Customer Service again yesterday. My call has been escalated to a 'specialist'. This 'specialist' said that, since PAL progressive is not ratified (his assertion), they do not support progressive playback of any sort (not even in 480p)[\i] from PAL discs. To clarify this, I asked "Do you mean that you are marketing a player in the UK market as having progressive scan, on which you only support progressive scan for Region 2, NTSC (practically speaking Japanese) discs?" He said "Yes, if you look in the manual you will see that nowhere does it claim to play back PAL discs in progressive scan." :mad: :mad: :mad:

    He's now going away to check, after I insisted that has not been anything to prevent outputting PAL-P as 480p and that DVD players have been doing this for years, that it is only the use of 576p as a physical interface to the display device which was not ratified until the end of last year. TBH, if he comes back and says that they do not support 480p from PAL discs, it will be a relief as I can then reject the player as not fit for purpose. Although I love the build, the picture quality (yellow stripe apart) and pretty much everything except the lip-sync, the appauling customer service provided by Philips means that the sheen has been taken off my new toy and I would be quite happy to be shot of it.:(

    _
     
  7. Jasonjo

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    underscore...all vendors (bar Arcam) are 'officially' saying their players cannot output PAL progressive as they have not yet got a license to do so. From their view, you could be anyone trying to check them out...hence they have been told to say it cannot support PAL-P at this stage.

    Call Denon - can your players support PAL-P - offical response NO. Talk to you dealer - YES, just update the firmware usign a CD and you get PAL-P

    Call Philips - same as above. Talk to your dealer or look at the forums here - YES, you need to input a series or codes to enable PAL-P - do a search or buy this months What Hifi as this has the hack in the review...

    Check out for the hacks:

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71016&highlight=963+PAL

    JJ
     
  8. gringottsdirect

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    Reject it anyway, you should get one that works perfectly. :)
    Have you seen the fantastic reviews in this month's What Video and Home Cinema Choice ?
    Philips are no better or worse than other large makers when you speak to their Customer Services, only Arcam and suchlike seem to have meaningful help at the end of the phone.
    I notice in the magazine the DiVA 88+ was compared unfavourably to Pioneer and Denon, value for money, interlaced PQ and cost of DVD-A upgrade were concerns.
    Don't give up on 963, when you have one that works, unscratched and pristine I think you'll be delighted.
     
  9. Jasonjo

    Jasonjo
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    gringottsdirect

    I thought you would like that article :D , especially after the recent thread of people bashing the 3800 vs the arcam ;)

    JJ
     
  10. gringottsdirect

    gringottsdirect
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    Jason,
    I wrote it :laugh:
     
  11. Jasonjo

    Jasonjo
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  12. Underscore

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    Indeed, all vendors (except Arcam and Marantz) are saying their players cannot output PAL-P. My understanding is, however, that they support the playback of PAL discs using NTSC-P output by scaling from 576 lines to 480 lines. Philips are saying that they do not support progressive playback of PAL discs, period (despite the default behaviour being to output PAL discs as 480p rather than 576i.) Seeing as this is my second player and it still has lip-sync problems (plus the yellow stripe and the sctratches), though not in all the same places as the first one, if Philips refuse to look into the problem with the single feature that caused me to upgrade from my Pioneer, the player is not suitable for me. If that is the case, I will probably go down the HTPC route, rather than risk another PS DVD player.

    _

    P.S. Two more discs watched this week with lip-sync problems: Nikita (French, R2) and Snatch (UK, R2)
     
  13. Klippie

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    Hi all,

    Very interesting comments about the 963SA, my one was brand new in the box with no unopened bags and batteries, but it has the stripes and split screen. The lip-sync problem does not bother me since I set the timing delay to max for the centre speaker on one of the menu's.

    I bought mine from Robertsons but I have not contacted them yet as I will speak to Philips first.

    I am going to give it another week for fiddling purposes then I think Philips will be asked to replace my machine for a brand new latest build machine or a full refund.

    Now the next question is what is good enough in this price bracket to replace the 963SA....will we have to put up with its little quirks just to enjoy a fabulous picture.

    Klippie.
     
  14. gringottsdirect

    gringottsdirect
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    May as well ask the milkman, Philips will just bounce you back to Robertsons :smoke:
     
  15. sr78

    sr78
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    Nope, Marantz doesn't support it officially either. When I called them regarding PAL-PS on the DV4300, I got the response that it didn't. When I inquired further, I got an 'unofficial' hint to check the video menu ;)
     
  16. Blu-rayx

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    hi Underscore,

    in this months what hi-fi (April) they tell you how to set up pal progressive scan for the 963sa :smashin:




    dvd ;)
     
  17. potato

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    Would it be possible to read this magazine online? I don't think I can buy it here in Germany.

    Thanks.
     
  18. Costas

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    Normally it will be available on line the following month when the next issue comes out. However, if you are desparate, I can scan it for you and send to whatever address you want...!
     
  19. zoro

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    Guys!! keep us posted on Pal prog set up, BTW!! I think, u can only use NATIVE PAL PROG, UNPROCESSED with PAL or PAL COMPATABLE TVs like PLASMA or FRONT PROJECTORS, on NTSC TV it will be 480p, PAL to NTSC???
     
  20. Underscore

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    Just been on the phone to Philips again. The guy is adamant that they do not support progressive playback (of any sort, even 480p) of PAL discs. Mind you, he was under the impression that it would not output PAL discs if the P/I switch was set to progressive! If Philips do not support the feature for which I bought the player, I guess that I will have to reject it - which is a shame as it would be a great player if I could only get that sorted out.

    Hey ho,

    _
     
  21. zoro

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    It is all BULL ****!..it does it all, lol!
     
  22. Costas

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    Underscore

    I suggest you show the magazine to Philips and see how they will confront the article based on what they have told you already!
    I think it will be extremely interesting to highlight to them the content of the atricle which definitely claims PAL PS with this machine!!!!!
     
  23. Underscore

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    There's a difference between what the player will do and what the manufacturer will support. Yes, the player will do NTSC-P playback of PAL discs and, yes, it will do PAL-P output if you hack it and, yes, it will play discs from other regions if you hack it but, no, Philips (it seems) do not support any of those things. Agreed this is not an issue if you have no problems with those aspects of the player. However, if you have a problem, like I do, what do you do? I'm now in the situation where the slightest hint of lip-sync problems - whether due to the player or the disc - completely distracts me from the film. I have an a/v system because I love movies. Anything that distracts me from the movies is bad and, if Philips won't help me sort those problems, I can't justify having their player in my system at all - let alone have to pay for it!

    _
     
  24. Klippie

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    Underscore,

    When you say the lip-sync is out how bad really is it, I had a fiddle with the sound delay menu on my 963 and set it to max on the centre speaker channel it seems fine to me.

    Also what make is the av-amp you are using, I have an older Sony 930 and according to the manual you can also set a longer delay by setting the speaker distance to a larger value.

    Just one last thing I am using my 963 on an HS10 projector and I noticed the banding on the left hand side as has may other owners, I recently had a go with Avia just to try it out now I hardly see the bands at all even on dark or black scenes.

    I was all for having a go at Philips about the machine because I was not happy with it and I do realize that once something is bugging you it is hard to let it go and nothing will change your mind, but have a tweak here and there just to see what happens it may help it may not.

    Klippie.
     
  25. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Hi Klippie,

    what did you do to reduce the bands?

    I've adjusted the brightness and contrast which is very important imho, and fiddles with chroma delay and sharpness, and the bands are barely perceptible, but I'd like to know what you did to reduce yours.

    I can't see any real difference with DCDi on or off, or with Trulife modes either..

    Do you have Star Trek Generations R2?

    I notice some posterisation occasionaly in all modes from the 963 - one point is on Zulus daughters face as the camera pans from right to left in chapter 2 (between 7 and 8 mins).

    You can see a banding/posterisation effect on the left side of her face (her right cheek).

    Sometimes it's not there, but mostly it is, and mostly in interlaced, but I've also seen it in the Red Dwarf II extras disk in the Rimmer out take from Thanks for the Memory.

    Just wondered if anybody else has noticed it?

    Gary.
     
  26. potato

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    Costas,

    Would it be possible for you to send it to me under:

    aidancj@hotmail.com

    A million thanks.
     
  27. mobo

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    About the faint green bands, it seems it is an impedance mismatch between the 963 and some PJs and TVs. Philips will correct the bug in next players, and probably local assistance will be instructed to solve the problem.
     
  28. Underscore

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    Has the 963 got a menu for delaying the digital output or are you using the on-board decoding? I feed the digital signal to my Sony 840. Watching Nikita the other night, where a guy is tapping a cigarette against the packet at the end, his hand is about 4 inches from the packet when you hear the tap. I estimate that the lag is at least 100ms - so I would need to be able to adjust the speaker distance by at least 35 metres! I suspect that this is outside the range of adjustment available to me.

    _
     
  29. Klippie

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    Hi all,

    Gary,

    All I did was go through the Avia disk as instructed and set the brightness and contrast from that. I did however have a final tweak of these settings for my own personal taste when I played a DVD.
    I prefer to use Sci-Fi as this seems to give better results ( the start of Lost In Space I find is best)

    As for Generations, when you say posterisation do you mean jaggies on sharp defined moving edges, anyway the image from my HS10 was smooth and clear I could not see anything wrong with the clip you suggested to look at.

    What make is your projector and have you got your 963 hacked for Pal Progressive.

    Here are my settings for the image side of my 963.

    TV Shape-16:9
    Black Level Shift-ON
    Video Shift-Center

    Digital Crysal Clear
    Chroma Delay-0
    Gamma-3
    Sharpness-0
    DCDi-Y
    True Life-0

    P-Scan Aspect Ratio-Non Linear Stretch
    PScanoutput-Unprocessed
    TV System-Pal

    Underscore,

    The menu to set the delay is as follows....

    System
    Audio
    Speakers
    Moviemode
    This then gives the speaker adjustments
    Select center
    Move across to the time delay colum and set it to 5ms (max)

    Hope this helps out.....

    Klippie.
     
  30. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Hi Klippie,

    by posterisation, I mean that where you should have a gradual change in colour, such as skin tones that go from light to dark due to lighting differences, you get a distinct change and a harsh line that traces the different graduations - almost like contour lines.

    I'd also calibrated my NEC HT1000 using Avia, but I've also noticed this effect on the progressive output, and once on s-video too. It's not there via htpc or from my Samsung via s-video.

    Today I thought the effect had cured itelf, but then it came back. I'm sure the player is faulty.

    I find the progressive colour banding to be very minor, and only visible under certain conditions, so I was going to leave the machine outputting progressive until I also saw the posterisation there too.

    Our settings are almost identical, and I've tried all sorts of combinations, but to no avail, so it must be the machine.

    I'm going to speak to Robertsons tomorrow about returning it.

    Gary.
     

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