Gordy V Mugabe?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by indianwells, Sep 21, 2007.

  1. indianwells

    indianwells
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  2. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    Dont thinkl anyone here particularly admires Gordy although he has hardly put a foot wrong so far. His Mugabe boycott would be very welcome. That tyrant should be exterminated
     
  3. 961

    961
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    As you know, Gordon is a son of the manse.

    I don't imagine he is under any illusions about his ability to sort Mugabe anytime soon but I can understand that his upbringing and beliefs are leading him to the view that it is a stand worth taking, regardless of the political advantages/disadvantages

    Sooner or later the grim reaper will come for Robert. How sad that what was the garden of Africa has been reduced to its present condition in the meanwhile
     
  4. Wild Weasel

    Wild Weasel
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    Pity Gordon's morality doesn't extent to gving us a referenda on the EU backdoor treaty. Until he does, I regard his critisicm of Mugabe's undoubted tyranny as hypocritical.
     
  5. Pat_C

    Pat_C
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    Hardly the same thing. The EU treaty contains no provision for politicians to savagely beat people who vote for their opponents. Well I haven't actually read it, but I'm assuming it doesn't.
     
  6. mrtbag

    mrtbag
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    Exactly what EU treaty has he said he'll sign us upto without a referendum?
     
  7. indianwells

    indianwells
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  8. bongo123

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    He would certainly be seen in a better light in my book for boycotting that summit if that tyrant goes, heck id have **** all to do with Africa anyways, over half the country is corrupt and evil beyond comprehension and the other half have absolutely no backbone to do anything about it except be a constant bleed on the worlds aid, wall em all in i say, I'm in no way racist by the way its just that i cant fathom why such a beautiful land with some fantastic people and rich countries can let places like Darfur/Zimbabwe/Somalia/Rwanda/Serria Leone etc get away with the blatant evil that they do and not step in but take a back seat and let that pathetically crippled laugh of an organization the UN attempt to sort it out, anyways thats my view on the whole thing...
     
  9. mrtbag

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  10. indianwells

    indianwells
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    Well he keeps repeating the mantra that we don't NEED one. Pressure is mounting from all sides, he may be forced to. He doesn't want one for the obvious reason that he thinks he'd lose.
     
  11. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    the two situations are vastly different:nono:
     
  12. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    There wont be a referendum simply because most people havent a clue what the treaty is alll about and would vote against on the basis that they a) dont like Europe, b) if one doesnt know something one would vote against it out of fear of what it MIGHT do to one.As far as i know the treaty is necessary because of the enlargement of the EC ie the current status quo is unsustainable and changes therefore need to be made. However much we might bleat about a referendum the treaty will go through so we might as well accept it.The only other option is top pull out of the EC altogether and face the economic consequences:nono:
    The Tories are cynically trying to make great capital out of this one in the belief thats its a vote winner for them but unless they join forces with UKIP , they would eventually play ball as well.
     
  13. Ethics Gradient

    Ethics Gradient
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    By those criteria, we shouldn't vote at elections either - because most people haven't a clue about the politics they are voting for. It's more a case of I hate this party or that.
    Otherwise how do you explain corrupt war criminals being voted back in.
     
  14. Pat_C

    Pat_C
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    I think you are correct. And I'm not aware of any coherent attempt to explain to people what it all means in real terms either. All I've ever heard is fragmented general opinions that are inevitably loaded with pro/anti Europe bias.
     
  15. Pat_C

    Pat_C
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    Maybe that is why most people don't? :)
     
  16. overkill

    overkill
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    Oh brother...........:rolleyes:

    But then who's fault is that Pat? Govt has never, and I'm not just talking about modern govt, 'bored us with the details'. I don't recall Maggie giving us any opportunity to 'read up' on any of the crackpot schemes she went off on. The sells offs, the dismantling of govt links with heavy industry, and, oh yes, railroading through parliament the initial steps for the European union. ;) I note with interest that the people 'demanding' a referendum now, were not so keen back then. Funny, even that rabid (well, just rabid really) Euro hater the DM wasn't that keen to examine exactly what Mrs T had signed us up to. Only a few right wing back-benchers were. Funny how they were sneered at then by the press, only to become their heroes within a few short years............

    The details of the treaty, as it stands now, can be examined online at the EU website. Any takers to have their intellectual stamina tested? ;) I doubt there will be.

    At least, unlike those 'statesmen' of old, we now know whats in front of us. It's up to us to see what it is, and then act accordingly.

    On the Mugabe thing, at least Brown, unlike the toothy one, has come out and made a genuine stand. Blair huffed and puffed but never tied his colours to the mast. Brown is saying 'he's got to go'. Which is too true.
     
  17. dBrowne

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    The little people can't be trusted to make the right decision in matters too important to worry their uninformed little heads with. That much was plain in France and Holland. Just change the name on the bottle and tell them to trust your more discerning judgement that it is a much better vintage.

    An unelected prime minister trying to foist a cosmetically altered constitution on the country without giving the electorate a say might be seen to marginally diminish the moral authority that underpins his boycott of Mugabe for being an undemocratic tyrant.

    I nonetheless think it is the correct gesture, if only to highlite to the other European representatives - with whom we are said to share the same humanitarian values - that they shouldn't be giving this Hitler-admiring butcher a platform on which to strut.
     
  18. Solomon Grundy

    Solomon Grundy
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    My brain hurts...the only thing I noticed from that post was the wee spelling mistake... :)
     
  19. Wild Weasel

    Wild Weasel
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    Yep, precisely my point. :smashin:

    Apparently the other African governments are threatening to walk out in support of Mugabe if Britain boycotts him. The WaBenz (those who drive Mercedes Benz) African kleptocrats like to stick together it seems.
     
  20. dBrowne

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    Could you highlight it?
     
  21. 961

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    "highlite" funnily enough

    But do not let that detract from the view expressed

    The sadness is that the rest of Africa seems quite happy with the situation preferring to watch as their populations suffer
     
  22. overkill

    overkill
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    Try reading it. The bulk of the original document has been thrown out. The electorate will get a say - at the next election. ;)

    As for referendums being 'democratic', well hardly. That's why then, that dictators love to use them so much. Purely to rubber stamp decisions that people are ill informed about.
     
  23. Pat_C

    Pat_C
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    I would say that the politicians who talk of 'engaging' more people (particularly younger people) in politics can only do so by trying to explain what some of these issues mean in real terms.

    You couldn't really expect anyone to vote in a referendum (in the unlikely event there was such a thing) without understanding what they are voting for. And I do realise that many people still wouldn't understand, or care enough to have an opinion. I suspect this is more complex than the key issues on which general elections are fought, but it must be possible to distil the main points.

    I wasn't suggesting this to be a characteristic unique to the present government either.
     
  24. overkill

    overkill
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    Agreed. However, I think the govts concern is that it would be used by the right (and the extreme right) to attack Europe full stop rather than the details of the treaty. The facts, however they are presented, will be overwhelmed by good old fashioned jingoism, and as such, in the current mood, the govt would be dumb to go with it.

    Bear in mind though, that I think they should, and the mood on the Labour back benches does as well.
     
  25. Pat_C

    Pat_C
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    Yes, I'm sure that is true. It seems a subject that will always generate far more heat than light. I don't understand much of the emotional attachment to national boundaries, currencies, red telephone boxes etc. myself.
     
  26. Ethics Gradient

    Ethics Gradient
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    You seem to have forgotten the war in Iraq and Weapons of Mass destruction rather quickly ..... or conveniently. How quickly the blinkers go on when you feel that your beloved Labour party is under attack, and a shame you can't seperate that from the reason and logic you usually show.

    Personally I can't quite get past the hundreds of thousands of deaths .... just like I can't in Zimbabwe, but for some reason there is the lack of political will to do much about it.
    South Africa shakes Mugabe's hand and turns a blind eye because they benefit from the influx of well educated professional refugees to help their expanding economy. There is no financial interest in Zimbabwe for us, so we tut, but do little else. We happily put up statues to Mandela who has also turned a blind eye to his neighbours cries for help next door. He and sucessive governments in South Africa won't do anything because of politics and profit as well .......

    The rules seem to be, that we let people die for pure economics. We invade when there is economics interests to be gained or protected, and we ignore when there is none - and it does not seem to matter what party or political persuations people are.
     
  27. dBrowne

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    There was a lot of bulk to throw out.. As for the electorate getting their say at the next election, it'll be done and dusted by then. If it is a matter of significant transfer of sovereignty (or is perceived to be) then surely that is any issue that transcends party politics. One could agree with Labour's economic policy and by opposed to this treaty or, conversely, be Conservative and be for it. I don't know if you can be Liberal Democrat and be against it.



    Likewise with elections.
     
  28. Ian J

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    Interesting thread but it's a shame that with the exception of Ethics Gradient it seems that everyone would rather discuss something else :(

    The Prime Minister has certainly earned a few more brownie points from me with his stand against Mugabe and I might even be persuaded to vote for him if he keeps it up.
     

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