good dvd player, or separate dvd and cd players????help me???

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by wassap, Jun 8, 2002.

  1. wassap

    wassap
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    Hi chaps

    Arecent pay rise has enabled me to consider buying a new dvd\cd player to accompany my marantz 5200.

    I got around 300 squid to spend, and my requirement is top notch cd sound, so is it better to go for a separate cd player and a separate dvd player. the sort of stuff i have been looking at is the marantz 4100 or the pioneer 647 (i think its 647),as all in one boxes. or go for say the new pioneer 340 or the 444, which i believe is around 150 pounds, and spend the rest on a cd player.

    My question how good is a 300 pound dvd players cd playback, is it comparable to a 150 pound cd player, better/ worse? and where in the dvd playback will i see the difference between a 150 pound and a 300 pound dvd player.

    what can u guys recommend ? my primary concern is cd playback (this more urgent now as my cd player is getting on!!) and then i would like a dvd with mp3/svcd\vcd.

    any suggestions

    thanks
     
  2. MartinCo

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    some dvd players are very good CD players.. some aren't.

    certainly the marantz 4100 is comparable to a low range £200 CD separates CD player, at least according to What Hi-fi. They have best buyed it regularly for exactly the reasons you are looking for - a DVD player that plays CDs well.

    others dont fair as well but maybe reasonable... there is no pattern on this - different per make & model.
     
  3. paiger

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    A Sony DVPNS 900 is what you are after. It will solve all your problems for a little over £300. Also, it will play SACD and that is just awesome. I have the DVPNS 700 and if the 900 is better (and they say it is) then you want one. Right now.

    Steve
     
  4. Craig_Nike

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    I'm with paiger, go for the all in one. Sonys are my personal choice.

    I also beleive that most(all?) DVD players play CD's as good as all but the $80000000 CD players - unless you have golden ears.
    No offense intended to others who think differently, but I think the placebo effect is far too huge when listen to differences in HT lounges/stores.

    I would go with the Sony 900 - one of the great DVD/SACD/CD players around. Plus DVD-Audio is dying anyway :)
     
  5. MartinCo

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    Craig... this we already know! :D
    well.. you believe wrong then. sorry to be so blunt!

    most DVD players just use the optical or coax out for 5.1 sound so they dont tend to have money spent on decent quality components for the analogue audio side of things. its just not a major consideration. plus the video components in a dvd player often interfere with the analog sound from the phonos.

    a good percentage of dvd players (at least upto recently) were awful CD players... a £300-400 DVD player thats average at CDs might just if you're lucky be comparable to the cheapest £60-70 CD separate you could buy at a shop.

    conversely, a few DVD players at £300-400 would not be shown up by CD players in the £150-200 range... maybe the Marantz 4100 and a few others here.

    What Hifi is not good for the cinema side of things, but it does at least test the stereo/ audio side from a different perspective to HCC and the others. Worth a read if that is what you are after - there was a recent test on exactly this criteria.

    definitely agree with you on the SACD/DVD-A situation.
    SACD definitely seems to have won here - most manufacturers are now either going or will be going for combined SACD/DVD-A players. There should be cheap chipsets to do this very soon.. Linn and Sony are working on this now. Other manufacturers have completely ditched DVD-Audio for the same reasons.

    the Sony 900 may be okay but get a demo.

    however its not a "guaranteed" good CD player - same reasons as before. Its an SACD player - just because its good at SACD does NOT mean it will be good at CDs.

    It maybe.. but its not definite.

    the Philips 962 SACD player has had good reviews for both CD & SACD, not sure about the Sony 900.

    my two-penneth anyway.
     
  6. Lowrider

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    Martin is right, the DACs are the problem with most DVD players, on the other hand, they have a better error correction than CD players, some outbord DAC manufacturers recommend DVD instead of CD players as transport, as long as they have double lasers...

    If you use the DACs of your receiver, a DVD player should be ok, don´t forget double laser...
     
  7. paiger

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    The Sony 900 will kick all £150 CD players I have ever heard into touch fo CD playback IMHO. There may be a better CD player out there for £150 but I'm not aware of it. Plus, it's all in one box, it has 5.1 SACD, it looks great and it's Sony QS. If it's built like my 735 was, it will be a machine to cherish.

    Don't forget it will also leave any £150 DVD player for dead in the picture stakes.

    Don't listen to the anti Sony bias on many BB's, go try one.

    Steve
     
  8. Nic Rhodes

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    Anti Sony posts are well founded. This myth around certain firms that they always make better products than the competition is rarely accurate. Sony was a great firm 5/10 years ago. Now days others are doing as well if not much better. Sony is no different to any other company. It makes some good products (ES range), it makes some bad products and it makes some howling mistakes (the original 900). Just like any other firm. I will criticise any firm if their products are not up to standard. I will not make any exceptions just because it is Sony, complete with all their lies.

    The guy is asking whether to get an integrated DVD player or separate CD player / DVD player. You guys are pushing a integrated SACD / DVD player? Guys there is a limited budget here, add additional features will limit the quality still further. Something has to give. A dedicated ARCAM CD player (7se say) will stamp all over the dedicated Sony SACD (770 £400/450) playing CDs, which in turn is much better than the ‘integrated’ players like the 900 (£300). I am a 770 owner. As has been stated correctly already it is down to quality of the output circuits. Most DVD players are designed to output a bit stream signal for another box of tricks (your AV receiver etc). A simple DVD layer is maybe all you need for a decent bit stream output.

    If you are after quality of sound separates are MUCH better. Basic Toshiba 210 / 220 and an Arcam 7se is a great way to go, though there are many others. Arcam is even upgradable at a later stage as well! (The Arcam 88 DVD player at £900 is about the equivalent of an Arcam £350 CD player playing CDs, it is one of the better players doing CDs as well). I only know ONE exception to this and that is the Tag DVD player (actually only transport! No audio circuits) but this is not relevant here. You don’t get something for nothing. There are major engineering issues here, that are just not solved with a few hundred pounds retail budget. The easiest solution is separate players. A pain I know but that is the reality of the situation.
     
  9. MartinCo

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    paiger - do you have a Sony dvp 900 or have you actually tried/ heard one?
    your statement above seems to be a fairly bold claim when you admit to not having heard many CD players in the £150-200 range... how do you know this if so?

    yes, the Sony 900 should be good.. but for a DVD player at £300-350, there wont have been a great percentage spent on the analog audio side... therefore it could be compromised... good for SACD but not necessarily for CD.
    its the exactly the same situation everyone has with their amp - good/excellent at 5.1 dd/dts, but often just average at CD duties.

    wassap did ask specifically for a DVD player that has quality CD abilities - he never mentioned SACD or DVD-A as a requirement though obviously it would be a plus if possible.
    and no, I'm not anti-Sony... they (usually) make excellent kit at competitive prices. I have had and still have lots of it.

    wassap, IMHO, if you are not bothered about SACD/ DVD-A, then the marantz 4100 maybe a better CD player than the others mentioned so far. plus its also a good match in tone and looks with your amp.

    have a demo if possible... also dont discount the Pioneer you mention and other makes, possibly the Toshiba 510.. it is DVD-A (doh!) but has progressive scan and probably the best DVD picture you can get under £500.
     
  10. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Just to add, when I criticised Sony last week, there was the usual flurry of I love Sony posts. One included a poster who loved his Sony tv he bought over 5 years ago. Great set that has never given him any trouble. I thought it rather re enforced my point that Sony was doing great things 5/10 years ago. I never go around to thanking him.!

    The wine industry has many similarities to this. There are two ways of getting great wine (very generalised).

    1. Throw money at the established names
    2. Try and search out great wine that hasn’t got the name yet but has the quality. Prices are much lower here (is more fun) and can make the smart buyer loads of money when it get the reputation it deserves.

    My AV kit was funded on the latter.
     
  11. paiger

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    I wasn't accusing anyone in particular of anti Sony bias. It's just if you read these forums you will pick it up. Anyone asks for some recommendations and all you hear is Tosh, Marantz, Denon etc. Now, I'm not knocking these brands, I'm sure they are all great. I just get the impression that there is a certain snobbery which says if you are really 'into' AV then you can't have Sony stuff (maybe cuz you can get it in Comet). For example, if someone asks for a £250 DVD player you will get Tosh, Tosh, Tosh. Now I know they are fine players, I looked at them myself but I ended up with a Sony DVPNS 700 purely because I thought it sounded much better for CD's and was at least equal for DVD's.

    I also went through the process of listening to a few £150-200 CD decks in Sevenoaks and to be honest, the 700 was as good through B+W 600's. Even the guy in the shop had to agree and struggled to recommend the seperate route. You may know of a better player as I said, just giving my experiences.

    Have I heard a 900? No. I have the 700 as I said. I know the 900 is QS and the 700 is not. I have spoken to many who say it sounds brilliant for a DVD player. I have seen the technicals which show how it's circuitry is far better than many others in the range. If you read my post, I did suggest he try one first.

    I'm not being nasty or aggresive and I apologise if I appeared confrontational, it was not intended. I just feel Sony is discriminated against on here.

    S
     
  12. stranger

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    to get back to the point, i have had the sony ns900 since october, paid £360.00 when it was priced @ £550.00, no problems- it is an excellent dvd player and a very good cd player. i had marantz and a technics cd players belonging to a friend at the time and the sony wiped the floor with both for detail and musicality.
     
  13. CJROSS

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    Wassup

    Nic is quite correct about the financial constraints of getting good sounds (stereo wise) from a DVD-V player but another way to get sterling sounds from a DVD-V player is to use it as a transport for an offboard DAC, this has the following advantages over buying 2 separate boxes (DVD-V & Int. CDP) imho :

    You are not paying again for transport cost in an integrated CDP so you get more “spound per pound” ie you are buying a DAC with your hard earned cash that will offer a better return for your money IMO.

    When your transport packs in you replace that not the DAC section of an integrated, separating DAC & transport section is a good way to go for this reason, as long as you go for a DAC that is not TOO dependant on transport quality.

    For example a (Low jitter recovery) reclocking device such as the Musical Fidelity X-24K (I sold mine a couple of months ago for £200) this is the Dac section from the X-Ray CDP (£800 worth in its heyday) this used off a Pioneer DVD-V (they all support 24/96 pcm digital output) the other offboard DAC in use secondhand circles would be the X-DAC again from MF which gives HDCD filtering again this can be had in the 2nd hand columns for £150 ish. Avoid buying on Ebay where items go for much more than they should.

    So my vibes would be to check out Pioneers DVD-V’s which featutre legato link processing (whilst not being the last word in sound quality gives it a good go) which makes a decent fist on trying to get the best sound from CD’s. I’ve seen the Pioneer 646 DVD-A player on empire direct for £199.

    See if you like the sound of the Pioneer DVD-V’s if not think about adding a DAC into your system. HTH’s

    FWIW A guy in work recently bought the Sony NSV-900 and felt pretty happy about the sound CD wise he gets from it.
     
  14. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Maybe but we need some fun;)

    When Sony / China starts to make cheap DVD player like the 2109 / 210 then I think people will start to recommend them more. Until then Tos rules the roost. I think this is a pity as healthy competition is very good. Unfortunately as soon as the 2109 was launched, the competition was a way behind and it is only recently that they are catching up. It hasn't been helped by the fact Tos have knocked these players out for as little as £170 for 2 series.

    Your post wasn't confrontational, I am just bored at work:D No appology nec.;)
     
  15. MartinCo

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    its alright paiger... no apology needed.:D

    good healthy debate is what this place is for after all...
    different people - different views... balanced info for everyone.

    anyway...same as Nic I'm at work and bored.

    and you are too easy to windup!:p
     
  16. paiger

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    No worries. I know I'm a bit new round here and didn't want to take the ******. I do actually agree with Nic on the 5 year thing. I have a Sony KV29 circa 1996 and it's a fantastic TV. I had to get some dry joints done on it the other day (a common Sony fault) and the guy said to avoid new TV's of any make cus they are so much trouble. Shame really. I'm looking to Plasma next so I'm going to give the whole W/S CRT bit a miss. I also have Sony 940 amp which is a great performer. It's a bit outdated now and I don't think I would upgrade to the 1070. I'm looking at the Denon 2802 or maybe waiting another 12 months and getting the 11SR. I don't think Sony amps are what they were 3 years ago.

    As for the DVD side of things, I believe they have the edge on most brands at the mo. The 700 blew me away for the money in all areas.

    I'm not a total Sony saddo though, wanted a budget VCR the other day and the Sharp was far superior to the Sony and £40 cheaper too.

    S
     
  17. wassap

    wassap
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    Whoa fellers!!!

    Right some good points made there, sacd, is still a fairly new format, i dont tend to delv in stuff until it is eshtablished, plus i aint got any sacd discs.

    as i said b4, my prime concern is cd audio, i listen more to music than watch films, that is why i was saying that, would it be better to buy, a 200 pound cd, and a cheap dvd player, im gonna try to demo some player at the weekend, gonna compare the pioneer 647 and marantz 4100, to some 200 pound cd players, i will go from there i think.

    The only other prob with sony sacd is, that there is no mp3 playback, i have quite a bit of stuff on mp3 at 224 kb, i wanna a player for this instead of my pc.

    cheers for u help chaps
     
  18. paiger

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    See all the trouble you caused!:cool:
     
  19. roadtorode

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    I have a Marantz4100OSE paired with a 4200 amp. It is certainly good enough for use as a main CD deck, although I am still undecided as to which DAC to use; the DVDs or the amps.

    No axe to grind with sony kit, but I've used marantz for years and never been less than delighted.
     
  20. TimF

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    I have just aquired a Sony 900, and after reading this thread thought I would hitch it up to my stereo amp direct (using linn analogue connectors)

    Got to say that it sound miles better than many other budget dvd players I have listened to but......... and its a big but - its still very poor in comparison to a decent CD player in a revealing stereo set up.

    A 2 year old technics CD player (about £200 then) is sweeter, and when you compare to my Linn Mimic .....well no comparison at all.

    The Sony is still good DVD player nonetheless when hooked up to Denon 3802, and would no doubt suit many people with a relatively simple AV set up.

    All the best


    Tim

    Linn Majic (pre-amp only stage)
    Linn LK 100 Power amps X2 (Aktiv)
    Linn Keiligh's (Aktiv)

    Denon 3802 (processor and amp for centre & rear)
    Linn Centric (Centre)
    Linn Sekrit's (Rears)
    B&W 1000 sub
     
  21. stranger

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    run the 900 in for fifty hours before you make your comparisons:)
     
  22. Nic Rhodes

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    Do they last that long?:devil:
     
  23. Craig_Nike

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    Nic - I wasnt PUSHING anything. I gave my OPINION - thats was he was after right ?

    So, MartinCo - my opinon CANNOT be wrong, it is what I think, after significant investigation into different price points and different brands - sorry to be so blunt.
    Do not tell people they are wrong becasue their opinion differs from yours......

    All I ever say is i dont think there is a 5% difference at the ears between any of the major brands when it comes to normal people price point.

    And if you lot go around telling people that one is MUCH better than the other - and they dont fall into the placebo effect trap (like most) then they will be dissapointed.

    Denon CD player next to a TOSH CD player at the same price and one is MUCH better than the other - bull****.
    I could live with 5% better (what is better anyway ?), but not more.
    Anymore is your imagination.

    IMO - remember that ?
     
  24. stranger

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    do you?:)
     
  25. MartinCo

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    apologies Craig..
    my mind must've played tricks on me and I read your reply as a statement and not an opinion... completely missed the "I believe" bit.
    sorry for any offense - absolutely none intended.

    informed debate is what the forums are all about.. long may it continue.

    I do like (some) Sony kit by the way.. did have a Sony amp till 4-5 months ago, still have MD player, CD player, VCR and other bits.

    no company is infallible.. they all have some good models... also some bad. some are good in a particular price range, so are not. one company might take a technology lead for 6 months with a generation of kit, then fall behind..

    BTW, I'm not an hifi nut by any means but ... IMHO :D just from listening to a few for comparision, there can be a huge difference between the CD playback quality of a given DVD player and a good £200 or greater CD player.

    hmmm.... sorry Craig.. have to disagree with you here.
    IMHO.. yes... there will be a difference - and based on their replies Nic Rhodes, TimF seem to agree with me... maybe others also.

    compare the CD sound quality we are talking about here with that of DVD players for picture quality..
    I'm sure you wouldn't disagree that at a given price, (say £200-250?) you can find models with picture quality ranging from excellent/ very good (e.g Toshiba, Sony, Pioneer), to good (samsung, sanyo etc) to virtually unwatchable... (take your own pick here).

    logically, if you follow this argument then... this must also apply to the stereo/CD sound quality of the DVD players due to different components and audio stages... so some will be better.. some okay.. some truly awful.

    no disagreement so far?

    if you follow this analogy further then.. the same must apply to £200 CD players since they also have differing components, drives, construction, whatever. ie.. some difference.

    so a £200 CD player compared against another makes WILL have very differing characteristics for sound...
    the 5% you describe is difficult to quantify but it can be very significant.. from demos I've had personally... instruments may sound plain wrong, or the sound will have very little bass.. or just a general lack of rhythm on particular music... this applies to both CD & DVD players on music duties.

    all my personal opinion but surely a fairly reasonable and logical statement also you'd agree?

    Also.. agreed about the placebo effect (ie.. something must be good).
    standard rules always applies - I would always tell someone to get a demo themselves.
     
  26. Craig_Nike

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    In that case I'm sorry I was so sharp also... I was a bit worried coming back in that I would have caused a storm, definately not what I wanted.

    I read your reply with interest - but unfortunately I still do not agree. But this debate has spurred me to thnking it may well be that I am as tone deaf as a doorknob, but I must say that I cant hear much difference in sound between different players.

    For example I have an old 'Aiwa' 3 disk changer Midi System, a Sony DVP735 DVD player (reasonably highly regarded for CD playback if I'm not mistaken?) and a Sony 200disc changer (now I know these aren't exactly considered top notch audio gear) - but when I change between the 3 on the same song, with the same amp - I really cant hear much difference. Certainly not enough to define one way or another.

    I have also listened in sound lounges to much higher spec CD players vs DVD players and remember concluding that there was nothing in it.

    So I may be half deaf !!! - you guys are lucky to be able to hear a difference, since I am obviously missing some audio spectrum which you take for granted and can appreciate - (being serious - not being an arse this time).

    Nice to see other opinions though.

    Look forward to beating you guys sensless in the upcomnig Commonwealth Games :)
     
  27. paiger

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    I don't think 'beating people senseless' is in the true spirit of the competiton. :D
     
  28. David Bier

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    Just to add my tuppence worth...When I auditioned for CD players a few years ago, I listened to the Arcam Alpha 8 and the equivalent Marantz (63 KI Sig?) with a mate. We both agreed that the Arcam was much richer and smoother than the Marantz which sounded thin and sharp to our ears.

    If you're claiming that different CD players at a given price point have the same sound you'll be heavily in the minority.
     
  29. paulr

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    Wassup......i'm in the same situation......i'd be grateful to know what you've decided...........if anything:)
     
  30. Guest

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    Opinion ? I consider all the above to be fact.:) Truth deserves to be bumped up to the top so here we go.

    Mike.
     

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