going round in circles

H

h0mer

Guest
Hi
Having spent a week or two reading reviews and this forum on various DVD recorders I'm still undecided. Information is pretty inconsistent where some sites list certain features that others don't etc.

The basic features I would like are component out, timeslip and i-link (need only be in). It seems the JVC DRM1 and Toshiba DR1 are very good options. Does the GX3 have those features too?

I've also been looking at getting one with HDD, and this is where I start getting conflicting info on which models have component out (some models vary between countries). Can anyone give me some ideas on which of the HDD models have the basic features I'm after please?

I know the JVC is being replaced in the next month or so, and they are bringing out a HDD version so could be worth waiting. In the meantime, I'll appreciate any suggestions of models to look at with those base features, especially from those that own them. Thanks :)
 
H

h0mer

Guest
thanks nunew, that's a useful site and one I'd not come across yet. Looks like I'll have to drop the HDD or wait a while.

thanks again

I also forgot to mention that I wanted progressive scan too (not sure if all component out are prog scan, but doesn't seem it from what I've read).
 

nunew33

Standard Member
the other link shows which ones are progressive and stipulate european models
 
H

h0mer

Guest
that is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. thanks again
 
8

888

Guest
Go for JVC DR-M1. Works like a dream. DVD-RW compatibility for those who beleive DVD-RAM is out. Give me DVD-RAM over DVD-RW or DVD+RW any day. Decent play on commerical DVDs as well. Not tried i-link yet.
 
S

st tech

Guest
how reliable is the jvc? many coasters? heard about one that had its fan going all the time.
 

phelings

Banned
888-with Pioneer's new recorders offering Timeslip on -RW,and the usual choice of editing or compatibility,unlike RAM-why would you prefer RAM to -RW(+RW is of course understandable due to its extremely limited uses).-RW in VR mode offers the same editing flexibility as RAM
 
8

888

Guest
In the JVC at least the DVD-RAM start up time is far quicker than -RW. Also, I may be wrong on this but I beleive -RW are only good for 1,000 re-writes, but DVD-RAM is good for 10,000 maybe more (having checked lately). Don't shot me if I miss quoted.

As to reliablity I've seen a lot of bad postings. But I got 3 yrs extended warranty and £150 buy back from Richer sounds for £30 (got the unit from them for £300). So not too concerned about it falling to bits after 3 yrs (DVD9 recordables will be around by then). After over a month of use no problems yet. Record on it every night.

I also love the way thumbnails of recorded programmes are animated (u get 4 thumbnails at a time and the one under the cursor playsback picture and sound).

I can only fault the JVC for not having RGB. But I cannot tell the difference between recorded programmes and live TV even on SP mode. Maybe different on a 42" plasma but SKY will look poor anyway (something others should know better as I can't afford one).
 
T

THOWD FELLA

Guest
I have just read the latest Camcorder User review on the Pioneer
5100 and it clearly states that it has component out. Is this wrong? It also has ilink in and out and time slip.
 

steve36

Active Member
888
DVD-RAM - is 100,000 rewrites, if you have'nt lost the disk or scratched it !
I liked RAM firstly due to this.

Blue-ray DVD or something similar should have reached us in 3 years, or am I being too optimistic ?
I bought a pan-E50 partly because of RGB-in/out, now Iactually use S-VHS out. It does'nt look that bad.

Pioneers latest DVD recorders do have progressive component out, so I've read. Check whatvideotv magazine for a review.

Steve
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
why would you prefer RAM to -RW
DVD-RAM brings a number of useful features over DVD-RW:

1) Greater Number Of Re-writes.
DVD-RAM has 100,000 compared to DVD-RWs 1,000. Now even 1,000 re-writes is alot but remember the same gernally principles that govern CD-RW lifespan govern DVDRs. That is to say the "upto xxx lifespan" is the expected number of re-writes approximately 40% and 50% of the HQ media will reach. For the rest you can expect 2-3% of media to fail at the 10% lifespan, a further 10% will fail a quarter of the expected age, around 20% will fail at half life and perhaps 5-10% will exceed expected lifespan. A problem? No - you just throw out the duff disk and buy a new one. But what if it takes you favourite programme with it? Now this affects RAM as much as -RW but 10% of 100,000 is much more than 10% of 1,000.

2) Mix Media Types.
This may not seem that significant at first but as we continue the march towards 'home networks' it is going to be a feather in RAMs cap. You can put JPEGS, MP3s, WMA, WMV on the same DVD-RAM disk as recorded video data AND can be randomly accessed just like a HDD. The increased re-writes again brings benefits here as you move your data around, delete titles etc etc. There is more info on this in the March Home Cinema Choice (Page 52/53).

3) Protective Cartridges.
Obviously only a 'benefit' for those disks that are in a caddy but a major plus point for DVD-RAM. For people with small children then a DVD-RAM recorder might be the only viable option if they want a removeable disk system.

4) User Friendly.
Arguably DVD-RAM is the simplier to use. With just one recording mode, there is not the confusion created by two modes. There is also no confusion as Timeslip will work on all DVD-RAM disks - not just certain types as with DVD-RW (which require v1.1).

Of course DVD-RW has some advantages over DVD-RAM - primarily greater compatibility with existing hardware and is alot cheaper. Bottom line though there are benefits in both RAM and -RW. It would be nice to see single format producers such as Panasonic and Pioneer add DVD-RW or DVD-RAM to their machines - but for the time being it's not going to happen.
 

steve36

Active Member
Rasczak
I hope that the failure rates you state vary according to the quality of disks you use or I'm now nervous.
I only ever had approx 5 bad VHS tapes, but I always used high quality tapes.
I did hear of a DVD-RAM/DVD recorder that in the USA allowed for HDD upgrade, I don't suppose any have that facility here?

Steve.
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
I hope that the failure rates you state vary according to the quality of disks you use or I'm now nervous.
There's no need to be worried about it. It's just a fact of life that all optical disks (of all flavours) will fail as time goes on - it's the nature of the beast. As you write to a DVDR the dye inside is melted and re-forms. It can only do this a finite amount of times before it becomes unuseable. As long as you ensure important data is properly backed up, use good quality equipment/disks and take care of your disks and your as safe as you can be from loss.
 

steve36

Active Member
According to WHATVIDEOTV magazine the 5100 does NOT have component/progressive out.

Steve
 

phelings

Banned
I like the idea of animated thumbnails-nice touch.
Rasczak,the Pioneer 5100 handles JPEGS WMA etc.Are you saying that the Pioneer cannot mix different formats on the same disc,but RAM can?I don't know if the Pioneer does this as its an area I never use.
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
Rasczak,the Pioneer 5100 handles JPEGS WMA etc.
Yes of course - like most.

Are you saying that the Pioneer cannot mix different formats on the same disc,but RAM can?
That's correct. The 5100 and 3100 will both play CD-R and CD-RW with HighMAT elements on (i.e. CD-DA, mp3, wma, JPEGs etc) but cannot do so from DVDR (page 9 of the 5100 manual refers). Of course there is no reason why it shouldn't be able to do so from disks recorded in VR mode - but not on those recorded in video mode.

DVD-RAM is quite happy for various types of files to sit along side each other - hence the reason why Panasonic added SD Card slots, PC card slots and the like to their upper end models. And hence why JVC and Panasonic are likely to be the first to offer a standalone DVD recorder as the centre of a 'home network'. The idea is you can have a small MP3 collection (say a couple of hundred megabytes) on your RAM disk, as well as your digital camera shots and still have space to record that evenings viewing (using FR still have a couple of hours of space in HQ left). In one or two generations time WiFi will enable you to pipe this content to your stereo upstairs, or your TV in the kitchen etc etc while Ethernet/USB/Firewire will provide the means to get content from your PC/other equipment onto the RAM device in the first place. That's where this path is going... At the moment it's just convienance.

As I say it briefly mentions this in the March Home Cinema Choice "Eye On Japan" feature (Panasonic page).
 
T

THOWD FELLA

Guest
Just been on the pioneer website and in the 5100 report there is no mention of component out. You can also click under the picture to view the back panel and there is none there. The magazines are obviously wrong
 

PhilipL

Member
Hi


1) Greater Number Of Re-writes.
DVD-RAM has 100,000 compared to DVD-RWs 1,000. Now even 1,000 re-writes is alot but remember the same gernally principles that govern CD-RW lifespan govern DVDRs.

Pioneers new A06 and A07 has new burning strategies that can increase the lifespan of DVD-RW upto 10 times, that equals up to 10,000 rewrites while the signal remains within the DVD specifications. The A06 (I had said this would be the case but Rasczak you told me I was wrong and it would be the A05, but no it is the A06) is used in the new Pioneer models. This also provides defect management like DVD-RAM. Both DVD-RW and DVD-RAM media are likely to outlast the useful life of the recorder. There is no reason to pay three times the price for DVD-RAM on the grounds it rewrites up to 100,000 times, as you are never ever going to come anywhere near this on a domestic video recorder. I suspect the lasers life is rated less than this in hours!

2) Mix Media Types.
This may not seem that significant at first but as we continue the march towards 'home networks' it is going to be a feather in RAMs cap. You can put JPEGS, MP3s, WMA, WMV on the same DVD-RAM disk as recorded video data AND can be randomly accessed just like a HDD. The increased re-writes again brings benefits here as you move your data around, delete titles etc etc. There is more info on this in the March Home Cinema Choice (Page 52/53).

The same applies to DVD-RW of course in the VR mode, and is part of the Video Recording specification. DVD-RW can also be randomly accessed like all DVDs can, which is their advantage over VHS! DVD-RAM may borrow some aspects of defect management from the hard-drive arena, but this doesn't make it perform like a hard-drive, it is simply for defect management. In a DVD Recorder it works using UDF2.01 in a real-time recording mode, which ensures data is laid down linearly as much as possible to help ensure it playbacks better. So while it might be quicker for the drive to dump some data where it finds the laser pointing to (this is how a hard-drive works and so you end up with data scattered all over), it doesn't, it waits and finds the last area written to and continues from there, this is the same way DVD-RW works in Restricted Overwrite mode.

3) Protective Cartridges.
Obviously only a 'benefit' for those disks that are in a caddy but a major plus point for DVD-RAM. For people with small children then a DVD-RAM recorder might be the only viable option if they want a removeable disk system
.

Agreed very useful, however many people are buying un-caddied DVD-RAM as it is cheaper and appears more familiar, the irony here is DVD-RAM is more vulnerable “naked” than DVD-RW, hence it requiring a caddie in the first place.

4) User Friendly.
Arguably DVD-RAM is the simplier to use. With just one recording mode, there is not the confusion created by two modes. There is also no confusion as Timeslip will work on all DVD-RAM disks - not just certain types as with DVD-RW (which require v1.1).

I guess you ignore the messing around with taking a DVD-RAM disc out of the cartridge for playback on other DVD-RAM compatible equipment that very rarely bother supporting cartridge DVD-RAM, so undoing the benefits you were promoting in 3 above?

DVD-RW is just as simple, but with the added flexibility of being physically compatible with the DVD-ROM spec, giving an extra choice. When in the video mode it is exactly the same as writing to a DVD-R, except you can re-use it. It isn’t adding an extra layer of confusion over DVD-RAM is it, as on DVD-RAM decks you still have two recording modes.

Actually it isn’t the version number it requires, as all DVD-RW you are ever likely to see outside Japan is v1.1, the media has to be x2 speed rated. With x4 speed media now coming out, it will not be long before 1x speed media is gone anyway, leaving x2 as the slowest you can buy which can be had for around a £1 each already. The Pioneers chase-playback worked perfectly on some cheaper Traxdata x2 DVD-RW, even at full data rates.

There isn’t any particular difference between DVD-RW and DVD-RAM, they are both capable of supporting the same features, and even use the exact same Video Recording format. DVD-RW on new recorders is now able to write up to 10,000 times (1000 was probably enough for most people anyway) and supports real-time defect management for further robustness. The defect management also rates defects on severity from 1 to 3 so still being able to record to some defects without having to mark them bad and avoiding them altogether, which would result in some loss of space.

Where set-top recorders are concerned, no one would mourn the loss of DVD-RAM, as DVD-RW looks and behaves in the same way. There is nothing stopping DVD-RW going in a cartridge, except the fact there isn’t a compelling need to do this as DVD-RW isn’t as susceptible to damage as DVD-RAM and people would simply not bother spending the extra as the majority of playback devices force the removal of the cartridge anyway.

Regards

Philip
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
ioneers new A06 and A07 has new burning strategies that can increase the lifespan of DVD-RW upto 10 times,
Agreed - and the A07 is several times better at this than the A06.

The A06 (I had said this would be the case but Rasczak you told me I was wrong and it would be the A05, but no it is the A06) is used in the new Pioneer models.
No Phil - I'm sorry but your wrong there. If you doubt this check the firmware upgrades for the 3100/5100 - it's the same as for the A03/A04 drive.

Here you can see the firmware for the 3100 - the same drive as the A03/A04:
http://www.pioneer.co.uk/uk/support.jsp?category=support_dvr3100
And he 5100 uses an identical drive to the 3100. Accordingly the Pioneer 3100/5100 does not have the DBI chipset.

And even taking into account the DBI chip - the effect of which is going to be more profound on HQ media than low quality media many people will be using - you still measuring in lifespan in thousands rather than tens of thousands. Agreed this will be more than necessary for most of your disks but it still doesn't preclude the failure rate.

Agreed very useful, however many people are buying un-caddied DVD-RAM as it is cheaper and appears more familiar, the irony here is DVD-RAM is more vulnerable “naked” than DVD-RW, hence it requiring a caddie in the first place
But the point is it IS an option. If people opt not to take up that option fine - but that doesn't mean it's not available.

I'm not going to argue the user-friendly side of things with you Philip - it's subjective. I have my opinion, you have yours - and we'll both just have to live with that. I say two recording modes on one type of disk can be confusing - you obviously do not - we 're not going to resolve our differences on that.

There isn’t any particular difference between DVD-RW and DVD-RAM, they are both capable of supporting the same features, and even use the exact same Video Recording format. DVD-RW on new recorders is now able to write up to 10,000 times and supports real-time defect management.
Except that DVD-RAM writes upto 100,000 times as standard (and remember the DBI chipset is not used by Sony) which is still ten times better than DVD-RW.

And it can come in a cartridge - you can suggest as much as you like that DVD-RW *could* come in a Cartridge but you and I both know that is pure fantasy and simply isn't going to happen. And thus DVD-RAM may remain the only choice for people with small kids. It's all very well to say "you have to remove it from the caddy for playback in many machines" but the bottom line is most such users would only want to use it in the actual recorder anyway.

And it can be mixed with multi-media content now - we both know that this has not been implemented on DVD-RW VR mode yet.

In short your saying DVD-RW could have the features of DVD-RAM on set-tops now - but actually it doesn't.

Actually it isn’t the version number it requires, as all DVD-RW you are ever likely to see outside Japan is v1.1, the media has to be x2 speed rated. With x4 speed media now coming out, it will not be long before 1x speed media is gone anyway, leaving x2 as the slowest you can buy which can be had for around a £1 each already. The Pioneers chase-playback worked perfectly on some cheaper Traxdata x2 DVD-RW, even at full data rates.
Fair one - most media is v1.1 - but that doesn't mean it's still not an issue. Such media is available cheaply in mega-pack deals in most US PC vendors. And as many people use the internet/go on holiday now with the express intent of picking up kit then this IS an issue.

Don't get me wrong - DVD-RW is a good format and it brings compatibility and features to the DVDR market which can only be a good thing. But, for the caddy alone IMHO, DVD-RAM remains a better choice. But the bottom line to the best format (for set-tops) will always be the features the machines offer.

And of course there is the issue of price - Panasonic offer DVD-RAM features at £250, Pioneer offer them at £300+.
 

PhilipL

Member
Hi Rasczak

No Phil - I'm sorry but your wrong there. If you doubt this check the firmware upgrades for the 3100/5100 - it's the same as for the A03/A04 drive.

Unfortunately you have a certain arrogance that prevents you from learning or opening your mind to other peoples views and knowledge. Lets see if faced with the evidence you are man enough to apologise?

Please see this link: http://www.dvdrhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=192334 as it contains pictures inside of a 5100 clearly showing the A06 writer. I myself have also seen inside a UK model and seen for myself the A06 writer, and also have a picture as well!

The link to the firmware upgrade you give is for an issue with VideoPlus algoritms and has nothing to do with the writer, as any one with half a brain can see, but not you it seems. Can you explain how a firmware upgrade relating to the VideoPlus timer settings in anyway shows or proves the 3100/5100 have an A03 or A04 writer? Please someone else take a look at that link and see if I am being unreasonable here to suggest Rasczak has only half a brain in posting that link, or maybe I am being unfair. :) Here is the first opening paragraph from that link: "Pioneer has found that some of its DVR-3100-S DVD recorders sold during October-November 2003 period may not properly perform timer recording. This will only occur when programming the unit - using the ShowView / VIDEOPlus+ (*) system - to record programs that will be broadcasted in the following year. Does that say A03 or A04 writer to anyone else?

For your information the firmware currently in use on the A06 dated September 2003 in the 5100/3100 is 1.03. This appears modified to disable +RW/+R recording, likely due to licensing reasons, but other than that on a PC appears as a 106 writer.

and remember the DBI chipset is not used by Sony

Like you would know? You think that the latest Pioneer models are using an A03 or A04 writer (despite this being impossible for chase playback), so why would you be correct on that or anyother statement?

Agreed - and the A07 is several times better at this than the A06.

The A06 and the A07 are the same in the respect of increasing re-writes to DVD-RW media. This was first introduced on the A06. See: http://www2.pioneer-eur.com/files/brochures/03_MMD_DVRA06/03_MMD_DVRA06.pdf which shows a chart indicating the expected increase of DVD-RW rewrites, and http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=Pioneer+DVR-107D&Series=0 which is the review by Cdrinfo which shows the same graph and states: Precision Recording Technology utilizes an auto-adjustable writing technique to enable recording under the best conditions for each disc characteristic at all times. This technology, first introduced in the DVR-A06, enables the DVR-107D to achieve optimal initial writing performance and helps to minimize the normal deterioration of re-recordable discs due to repeated writing. As a result, the quality for repeatedly used DVD-RW discs is up to 10 times better than previous writers. This quote is basically a rip from Pioneers A07 broucher which I can not find a link for currently, although I could link to something else completely unrelated I suppose as you did ;) but I will not.

I see no point in discussing anything else as I think you live in your own DVD-RAM world :) Like the Pioneer 3100/5100 could have an A03 or A04 in them, as they only support x1 on DVD-RW and so chase playback would be impossible. Oh and a few months ago you argued here it was an A05 they contained. You're not even consistant mate! ;)

Regards

Philip
 
8

888

Guest
PhilipL,

What is the point recommending a DVD recorder that is not out yet? Secondly, I brought Panasonic DVD-RAMs for £3 (5 in pack for £15), that almost the same price you play for a good VHS blank.

The technologies of -RW/+RW/DVD-RAM are all slightly different with merits for each and also negatives. I would agree that DVD-RAM may disappear in time (but BIG in Japan) but so would everything else.

I can only think that you have shares invested in -RW.
 

PhilipL

Member
Hi

What is the point recommending a DVD recorder that is not out yet?

I wasn't aware I recommended anything, and every bit of hardware I talked about is available now.

My last post was correcting Rasczak on some very stranges ideas he has about DVD-RW technology currently in use in Pioneer recorders. Why for someone puts themself forward as so seemingly knowledgeable about DVD recording technologies has he posted such rubbish regarding the internal workings of Pioneers current recorders? It wasn't as though he said "I think" or "I believe", he just said I was completely wrong when I said the current recorders use an A06 writer internally.

I await is apology and explanation as to why he was so wrong?

Regards

Philip
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
PhilipL,

What is the point recommending a DVD recorder that is not out yet?
Because he's more interested in what could possibly happen one day as opposed to what is actually happening. He's more interested in debating what is indeed possible to put DVD-RW in a cartridge - the fact that nobody has ever stated any plans to do this irrelevant to Philip.

Please see this link: http://www.dvdrhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=192334 as it contains pictures inside of a 5100 clearly showing the A06 writer. I myself have also seen inside a UK model and seen for myself the A06 writer, and also have a picture as well!
On this subject I am clearly wrong - and admit it - the picture does show a 106 drive. And I did mis-read the page - I thought the sentence underneath referred to the 3100 as well. I was wrong. It's hardly the end of the world though.

Like you would know? You think that the latest Pioneer models are using an A03 or A04 writer (despite this being impossible for chase playback), so why would you be correct on that or anyother statement?
So your suggesting that Sony have indeed licenced the DBI chipset are you? You saying they are building their DVDRs to a Pioneer design? You know full well that the DBI was a Pioneer invention for their drives and Sony has not licensed it. You don't even know if Pioneer have enabled the DBI element on the drive!

The A06 and the A07 are the same in the respect of increasing re-writes to DVD-RW media
That's wrong:
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=Pioneer+DVR-107D&Series=0

Note the statement "Compared to previous Pioneer model" and you'll notice the drive also has introduced DRT-DM (Distributed Real Time Defect Management) which adds defect management which again assists in the writing to older disks. Bottom line the A07/107 is better than the A06/106.

I see no point in discussing anything else as I think you live in your own DVD-RAM world
LOL! Like you live in your own DVD-RW world. As the only person who brought the DVR-7000 being alone is something you must be fairly familar with ;) I jest of course.

I mean lets get back to the issue of what DVD-RAM has that DVD-RW doesn't. And that remains:
- Greater number of re-writes (in excess of 10 times greater)
- Option of Cartridges
- Ability to use mixed media on a set-top recorder
- Easy use

Philip would have all these on DVD-RW recorders - it's just he hasn't told Pioneer or Sony yet. Unfortunately DVD-RAM has these NOW and them cheaper than the DVD-RW equivalents which is why DVD-RW remains a minority format in set-top use. Sorry Philip.
 

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