Global warming? It's natural, say experts

Discussion in 'Renewable Energy & Energy Saving' started by stratagem, Sep 14, 2007.

  1. stratagem

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  2. Steve.J.Davies

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    there is no balance - this forum is restricted to only one view.

    lets see how long this thread lasts.
     
  3. city fan

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    That Polar Bear looked really cute :D

    I'd go with what these boys say, too many left wing hippies goin on about Global Warming for my tastes :devil:
     
  4. njp

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    Same old, same old. The idea that these two are respected by anyone other than their denialist cronies is simply laughable. They have a book to sell.

    Of course, Singer has made an astonishing U-turn. Prior to 2006, he used to claim that global warming wasn't happening. Now he claims it's unstoppable...
     
  5. njp

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    Empirical science isn't remotely interested in your "tastes".
     
  6. johntheexpat

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  7. stratagem

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    As far as I know the Daily Mail just report it, perhaps you know different.
     
  8. njp

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    On what evidence did they bestow the epithet "respected" upon Avery and Singer?
     
  9. Manhattan Mike

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    Good to see a respected UK newspaper coming out with something like this.

    The article was actually brought to my attention by a few people here in the UK and its good to see respected people are starting to come round to a common sense opinion and newspapers are reporting it. Hopefully we will see more and more of this as the current "so called evidence" for MMGW is brought under the spotlight and questioned.
     
  10. johntheexpat

    johntheexpat
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  11. njp

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    The Dail Mail is not a "respected" newspaper, at least not amongst those of us who value accurate reporting and analysis.

    The Avery/Singer thesis is not new, and is demonstrably incorrect. But they have a book to sell, and that clearly requires periodic press releases to enlist the help of gullible members of the popular media.

    How can you, a man who by his own admission has no understanding of seasons, or of trends in Arctic sea-ice coverage, or indeed of anything else regarding climate change that we have ever discussed here, possibly be expected to use a spotlight to examine the evidence? I doubt you would even be able to switch it on, let alone point it in the right direction.
     
  12. nikyzf

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    Also in the Telegraph.
     
  13. nikyzf

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    Careful, careful.
     
  14. stratagem

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    Well, I guess they must have arrived where they are from at least a respectable position, simply having views that are different to those that currently challenge them doesn't change that.

    Not quite sure what you mean here, there is already a thread devoted to this.

    Don't expect to tempt me into championing Avery and Singer, nor MMGW, I frankly don't believe either, both sides are equally tainted with profit, whether a nice line of research funding or a lucrative book deal.

    I do believe in many of the conservation and waste reduction improvements regardless of the reason, so generally see the resultant publicity and actions as a good thing, but I will complain when authorities see it as an golden opportunity to take more of our hard earned.
     
  15. simonoaks

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    Unfortunately, it seems anyone who was "respected" who comes out with anything remotely different to or arguementative against any current data, seems to automatically become shot down in flames in both professional and personal terms.

    I am not, saying for one minute, that this article (and come to that ANYTHING) printed in the DM is acurate, but it does seem that people seem to use someone's data/theories to back MMWG if it fits, but if say, a few year later after further research they report something else, they are suddenly an unreliable source.

    Of course, if we are all honest, the only thing that is going to determine who was right is our old friend TIME.
     
  16. nikyzf

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    They can believe anything, even it contradicts something they believed yesterday. Anything except, that is, the possibility of any human influence on climate. That would never do, oh no.
     
  17. Stephen Wilde

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    Anyone who expresses a high degree of confidence either way is suspect.

    It's a personality issue. Many cannot live with uncertainty and veer from one extreme to another. It is common for strong believers either way to switch completely to the other opposite belief. That is what makes it so similar to religious conviction with a similar antagonism towards anyone who doubts.

    It's likely that AGW does exist but the significance of any such warming in the broader scheme of things is entirely speculative.

    The so called 'consensus' is now being tested and seems to be weakening daily.
     
  18. nikyzf

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    But you know, of course, that Singer was once a respected scientist who ceased to be so some years ago when he was paid by the tobacco industry to dispute the link between passive smoking and cancer? He used much the same techniques of misinformation and propaganda then as he does now with GW.

    People don't lose respect by merely disagreeing; they lose it by lowering their standards for financial gain or by being dishonest.

    How much time do you want, or think we've got? Hansen's projections made in 1988 have largely come to pass, and we can't take the risk of BAU.
     
  19. Manhattan Mike

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    It sure is around where I am based here in the UK. I have read a lot of the newspapers here in the UK and out of all of them this paper hits the right notes for me in many areas.

    The comments made by these experts in the article about MMGW just back up my own believes on the subject. When respectable people and respectable newspapers come out with opinions like this it makes me even more convienced that I am on the right side in my beliefs.

    This is also backed up by the bad publicity that Mr Cameron is getting due to his Global warming policies that he is trying to use to get peoples votes.
    I dont understand the full UK political situation but if this guy is really being serious and trys to base his political agenda on Global Warming then he has no chance of becoming your next UK's minister.
     
  20. hermanmunster

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    er no......in these threads it's njp :D
     
  21. johntheexpat

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    From the link
    "The US chief scientist has told the BBC that climate change is now a fact.

    Professor John Marburger, who advises President Bush, said it was more than 90% certain that greenhouse gas emissions from mankind are to blame.

    The Earth may become "unliveable" without cuts in CO2 output, he said, but he labelled targets for curbing temperature rise as "arbitrary". "

    Those damned left wing hippies get everywhere
     
  22. njp

    njp
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    Why am I not surprised?

    Since your own "believes" on the subject include the belief that the mere existence of sea ice in the Arctic circle in winter is sufficient to disprove MMGW, I doubt that the respectable scientific community (and that doesn't include Singer, by the way) will be losing much sleep over their credibility.
     
  23. njp

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    How do you reach that conclusion? Singer has been peddling drivel about climate change for years. All that's happened is that for the last year or so he's been peddling different drivel, because he has a book to sell.

    Meanwhile, back in the real world, the consensus continues to strengthen.
     
  24. Nimby

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    All that this book is likely to do is fractionally shorten the lifetime of finite resources. Those who don't want to know about MMGW will be bolstered in their beliefs that it is a hoax. They will continue to waste resources as they have always done. The CO2 side doesn't matter. They weren't going to do anything about that anyway.

    If global warming and cooling are indeed cyclical then why don't the Greenlanders have any race memory of present conditions? They have so many words to describe snow conditions. No ice left may not be in their vocabulary, of course.

    If this is a temporary warming then why are those countries with a claim to the polar regions having a summit to sort out ownership of polar geographical resources? Why are they rattling their sabers, talking about troop movements, sending up bombers? Why are they discussing billions in mining and drilling investment once the ice recedes in a year or two? Will Canada declare war on Denmark over Greenland? What are the Russians really up to? Haven't any of them read the book? It's going to get cold again in a few short years. It's a natural cycle you know. ;)
     
  25. simonoaks

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    I wasn't talking about an idividual, but just generally I get the impression that previously highly regarded experts are now no longer such due to their change in views. I was not singling out one person.

    I wasn't talking personally, I do not know how much time we have (although I think we have already confirmed that if GW is real, it is too late anyway to not get some sort of effect from it). All I am saying, is that the is no hope whatsoever that enough people/countries (particularly the ones who actually count for the highest impact) of changing, therefore as with most things, only time will tell.

    The fact of the matter is, no matter what the UK does and even some other big Western countries, it is irrelevant if the big nations do too little. We can all come up with ideas and change our lifestyles, but apart from making one's self feel better, in the overall scheme of things it will do nothing.

    On a small political note, I was going to vote Tory as a protest vote agains this current Government, however, I am surew both believers and non believers will agree; the total rubbish that is currently coming out of Cameron's mouth is laughable. Not just in terms of green issues,but every topic he tries to cover. I think his advisors are Labour plants!
     
  26. stratagem

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    How true, complete plonker, now I'm a none of the above voter and it's his fault.
     
  27. Nimby

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    Simonoaks

    Do you not feel that a country which had changed its habits as a response to MMGW would be a far better place to live? The freedoms of decentralised energy? Wind, solar & wave? Housing raised to more comfortable levels of insulation? Quieter vehicles? Real public transport options? Bicycles reclaiming the minor roads, cities and lanes? And end to pointless billions of 10 wheeler articulated lorry trips across Europe? Cleaner air, sea and waterways? Once the momentum of present thinking is hauled onto a new course wont people demand ecological foods instead of energy intensive industrial farming? Wont cleaner transport and living and working conditions appeal to many more people than at present where no real choice is offered?
     
  28. nikyzf

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    Fair enough, but didn't this start because of references to Singer's reputation? I would say he's a good example of why some respected experts cease to be so. Do you have examples of other experts who have lost respect because they have changed their views but, unlike Singer, have remained honest and rigorous?

    It's a problem, isn't it, and the climate scientists can't win. On the one hand some sceptics are saying it's too early to tell, on the other some say it's probably too late so why didn't you tell us sooner (which they did, of course!).
     
  29. stratagem

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    The freedoms of decentralised energy?
    If you mean decentralised from Russia and ME, then yes, lets have some nuclear for the extra power we will need in a warmer climate.

    Wind, solar & wave?
    Personal installations are pointlessly uneconomic, and in the UK wind farms are placed in places without wind just so we have some.

    Housing raised to more comfortable levels of insulation?
    This is accomplisished at personal cost with whatever funds we have left after taxes, and it carries VAT.

    Quieter vehicles?
    They are already quieter, except for chav novas.

    Real public transport options?
    I would never use it, except in major cities, because of the public.

    Bicycles reclaiming the minor roads, cities and lanes?
    I wouldn't want this either.

    How about claiming carbon offsets against immigrants country of origin, or just realising the country is full and we need the land for food and energy crops, not housing?
     
  30. Stephen Wilde

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    I found the Danish wind turbines ugly and claustrophobic. Instead of an open sky overhead and a sense of being out in the natural world it feels as though one is under a sort of roof set at the level of the topmost point of the blades.
    The same aesthetic problem as with a broken horizon in a seascape. Instead of a sense of the size of the planet one just gets redirected to yet another product of man.
    The only solution is less people yet Denmark is way better off than UK in that respect.

    I mustn't get too depressed though. I still live in a semi rural UK community with an excellent local landscape and largely crime free. Just hope it can stay that way but if England goes to 70 million or more then all will be lost.
     

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