Gecko home cinema forum days

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Hi All

Prior to our Open Day, I wanted to share some thoughts and feedback

There are two showrooms within an hour of me where you can audition “state of the art home cinemas”.

Habitech are in Basingstoke and have a highly treated, purpose-built room with a Wisdom system. I believe the cost of the audio and treatment is about £250k.

InVision are in Bracknell and have a Procella/Trinnov system, again in a highly treated, purpose-built room. I think the total cost of the audio system, with room treatment is around £250k.

I’m demonstrating the systems here (with my new Voicings) to people in the trade every day and no one has said either of these systems are better than the £60k MK/Lyngdorf system here. Everyone agrees the Steinway Lyngdorf systems are far better.

I think it would be great if an Open Day could be arranged at these locations for people to see if they agree.

Aside from the price v performance of the systems, what this would help clarify is whether these highly treated, purpose-built rooms give the best results or whether a Steinway Lyngdorf system in an untreated room gives better results.

No one has done more to raise awareness of the importance of “the room” on this Forum than me, but I believe the solutions being recommended do not work and are ripping off clients.

We can talk endlessly about this, but the proof of the pudding is in the listening and these demonstrations really would help clarify this…..
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Hi Steve

Sorry for the silence..........yes, still on for Sunday.

I’ve spent a couple of evenings testing the MK300/Lyngdorf and Steinway Lyngdorf IW26/15 systems here and am 100% certain anyone will prefer them with the Voicings I’ve added.

I’ve also added some Voicings to the systems at Seriously Cinema and Jacobs AV and the response has been excellent……….so I’m really looking forward to visitors’ feedback as an additional reality check.

I’m running out of rooms to demonstrate systems, so if you want to hear the Model O’s, it’ll have to be in my lounge which isn’t very glamorous and smells of dog. I’ll try and have the Model O running as a 2.0 and 2.1 system which you can quickly toggle between. Again, your feedback would be really useful.

Unfortunately Michelle won’t be around to help on Sunday because as a nurse she felt compelled to help with the current humanitarian crisis currently afflicting Marbella. Be assured she will be doing sterling work to help with the great European Rose surplus while we play with sound systems. As such catering and hospitality may be compromised but the systems should be great.

I think the Steinway Lyngdorf Atmos system kills any other cinema system in the UK, in a very live, untreated room while costing a fraction of other high-end systems. It’s also the only really high end stereo system that functions as a cinema……..so please come and throw anything and everything at it.

R
 

Steve413

Well-known Member
Unfortunately Michelle won’t be around to help on Sunday because as a nurse she felt compelled to help with the current humanitarian crisis currently afflicting Marbella. Be assured she will be doing sterling work to help with the great European Rose surplus
I admire Michelle’s commitment to the cause......:clap:
 

Astonman1007

Active Member
Hi Rob.
Unfortunately, I have to work tomorrow now until 4pm so I can't make it. Hopefully I'll be able to attend the next one!
 

IWC Dopplel

Well-known Member
Sorry I couldn’t make it today, looking forward to the feedback
 

Seaview

Active Member
Thanks Rob,

My wife and I thoroughly enjoyed our day yesterday listening to your fantastic systems! Each one is just awe inspiring and we would be delighted with any of them, really aspirational stuff. It's always nice to meet some fellow AV enthusiasts as well to chat with as "no one else understands" lol We really appreciated you opening up your home and systems just for us forum members.

I'm just not sure how you manage to get any work done with several of the best cinemas in the country literally on your doorstep?
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Hi Seaview, thanks for the nice feedback.

Thanks to every who visited yesterday. I really enjoyed the day and found the feedback invaluable.
Big thanks to Cory for taking the time to measure the MK/Lyngdorf system. From the quick glance I had, the results look superb which combined with the way the system sounds is the best example of what MK and Lyngdorf has to offer. Hopefully we will have these reading available soon to share….

I hope I made a good case for the need for Voicings. If you take some well know films, you can quickly hear that an adjustment is essential for them all to sound at their best. For example Bladerunner 2049 sounds epic on neutral, while Star Wars needs an aggressive mid and hf roll off, while Mad Max benefits from added bass and mid and hf roll off.

The same is equally true when playing back music.
If anyone who visited has any feedback, good or bad,
please share it here.

The main thing I’d encourage is going and listening to other high-end systems in the UK. There is a £250k Wisdom at Habitech and a £250k Trinnov/Procella system at InVision you can visit.

All the feedback I’ve had is that the £60k MK/Lyngdorf system here is better than these options while the Steinway Lyngdorf is far better and the only cinema system that functions as a state-of-the-art music system.

Perhaps a visit to these showrooms could be arranged by the Forum?

Thanks again and I’m looking forward to the next one.
 

Steve356

Well-known Member
Some short feedback on the Open Day.......

Every time I visit Rob, I find it amazing that time seems to accelerate. 8 hours literally flew by. He's a great host with some amazing demo rooms housing incredibly high quality systems. It was also a real pleasure to meet other Forum members and also very educational. :smashin:

I'd fully agree with Rob that the different voicings brought a noticeable improvement to the tracks we listened to, many of which I was very familiar with. Rob made some new voicings on the fly with the Lyngdorf/MK and the Steinway systems and it seemed very easy to do, which makes even more attractive. I'm normally a set and forget guy, but I could see the voicing options being something I would use.

I was in the Lyngdorf/MK room when Cory was taking the REW measurements. The results he measured were very flat with Room Perfect engaged across all the speakers with the subs (6 x MK X12) flat down to 10.3 Hz. Awesome! :thumbsup:

My favourite demo system remains the Steinway system though. Despite it seeming to not go as low as the Lyngdorf/MK system, most likely due to it being located in a large open plan room, the total lack of any distortion means that it can achieve sound levels over reference without any hint of listener fatigue. Added to that is incredible bass impact that hits you in the chest and vibrates the seating. No need for any buttkickers in that system. I could (and have) sat in front of system for hours. :D:clap:

Again, thanks to Rob for another fantastic day and many thanks for continuing to share your experiences and knowledge with us. :thumbsup:
 

Steve413

Well-known Member
The Steinway Lyngdorf Model O that Rob kindly set up in his lounge for me to have a listen to......certainly did not disappoint as a 2.1 Stereo system or as a more conventional 2.0 stereo......breathtaking dymanics and clarity.....this really does appeal to me being more into my music than cinema......that’s not to suggest that the cinema systems there with and without the use of the new voicing did not impress they are just as I remember them only even better and more flexible with the custom voicing available where they are a major benefit when some of the source material is less than great to start with, being able to bring them under better control is useful and makes them far more enjoyable.

the Model O Stereo simply oozes Class........
 
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Seaview

Active Member
A big learning for us was how much of a difference properly installed rear speakers can make. I thought I was happy with 5.1.2 but am now definitely looking to increase to 7.1.4. Watching Blade Runner for example there is a scene where they are in an indoor warehouse and i could hear voices panning from in front to completely behind and I realised my system doesn’t do that.

Unfortunately this means yet more speakers but at least my wife was with me to hear for herself and admitted it was a worthwhile upgrade so that is the main challenge already overcome :D Its one thing trying to sneak in a new amp or whatever in a cabinet but new speakers are always noticed...

This is one example of where a day like this is so valuable. Hearing systems this good highlights constructive areas to improve at home. Also how neat installs can be with not a single floor standing speaker in any of the movie rooms!
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
Would like to see Cory's results. Just about to have a swipe at this myself with a similar setup.
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
FYI, there were two systems you may have heard at the Open Day that have been transformed with an adjustment to the time delay. The Lyngdorf 2170/MH2/BW2 combo and the Model O 2.1 system. I added 20cm to the measured distance to the woofers and its made a huge difference. They sound much fuller, fatter and more even now......and dont need Voicings......
 

orange55

Well-known Member
That
FYI, there were two systems you may have heard at the Open Day that have been transformed with an adjustment to the time delay. The Lyngdorf 2170/MH2/BW2 combo and the Model O 2.1 system. I added 20cm to the measured distance to the woofers and its made a huge difference. They sound much fuller, fatter and more even now......and dont need Voicings......
That's interesting. How did you come to that figure?

Next question, when measuring the X10 do you measure from the front of cabinet or back? And then add on the delay for the crossover?
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
One of the guys from Lyngdorf visited last week and the 20cm addition was his suggestion. It's definitely made a huge difference to two of the systems here. Bear in mind that when running Lyngdorf BW2's with a TDA2170 or 3400 the crossover in the subs are bypassed and done in the TDA.

With a sub, I'd always measure to the back corner where it meets the wall as this is the acoustic centre of the sub in your room. With this figure, I'd then add the latency of the sub that you have.

For an MK X Series sub its 68cm without low pass filter (as god intended your sub is set up) and 199cm with the low pass filter. For V series add 170cm.

Do give it a go. It works!
 

N51

Standard Member
Hi, I have recently visited the Jacobs AV home cinema demo room in Cheshire.
The voicings you mention sounded fantastic, Tom Cruise oblivion and The Police Certifiable live concert.

Jacobs system was Lyngdorf MP50 and amps with MK 300 and tripoles with 2 X12 subs. Massive widecreen !

I was told the room was built with your guidance Rob.
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
I'm really glad you visited Jacobs AV. Its the only home cinema system in Cheshire I know of that I'd regard as reference quality and that has been designed using only best in class products. The system is awesome and if anyone is curious about what Lyngdorf and MK can do I'd highly recommend a visit.

Naveed has been in the industry for years and has installed most major speaker brands and knows their shortcomings very well.

One of my favourite programmes on TV is Bill Maher. Last nights programme ended with him having a rant about the effect of corruption in the US government. The impact of this is that a newly built property for social housing in the US costs over £500k because so many people are on the make. You can buy a beautiful, detached 5 bed home in the same area for £130k.

This reminds me of the home cinema industry and is why I keep wanting people to compare systems like the one at Jacobs that costs around £45k with the £250k systems with Wisdom, Trinnov and Procella.
 

Wilkinsonj

Standard Member
My favourite demo system remains the Steinway system though. Despite it seeming to not go as low as the Lyngdorf/MK system, most likely due to it being located in a large open plan room, the total lack of any distortion means that it can achieve sound levels over reference without any hint of listener fatigue. Added to that is incredible bass impact that hits you in the chest and vibrates the seating. No need for any buttkickers in that system. I could (and have) sat in front of system for hours. :D:clap:

Again, thanks to Rob for another fantastic day and many thanks for continuing to share your experiences and knowledge with us. :thumbsup:
Can I ask which Steinway system are you referring to? The IW-66 setup?

For me, this remains the best sound stage I've heard from a front LCR setup.

Can I ask what you mean by not seeming to go as low?
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
I think Steve is referring to the Steinway Model IW26 Atmos system here.

I'm not an expert on REW and while its a useful tool, one reading in a room cannot give the full picture but more importantly you must understand what you are looking at before jumping to conclusions.

A visitor a few weeks back measured the MK300 system as having very even response down to 10Hz. He then measured the Steinway system and the results given showed that below 100Hz the bass disappeared. He thought this reflected what he was hearing when everyone could feel the bass pulsing through them.

The reading he took is complete rubbish and must have been taken in error using the mic in the laptop. The point is, if I hadn't been around to correct this error, this would have been taken as evidence that the system lacks bass.

Enclosed is a reading of the same system I took yesterday which shows this system also plays relatively flat to 10Hz. Sorry its a photo, I'm like your Dad with PC's. A couple of visitors from the Forum will be visiting next week to take more readings of this system and hopefully will post their findings here to corroborate.

A system giving even response down to 10Hz is exceptional and having two next to each other to compare is interesting. The MK system here sounds fatter and fuller, which some people may prefer. The Steinway system is much more accurate and cleaner which others will love, especially those into music.

You can fatten up either system and the way to do this is with Voicings but adding too much bass can come at the expense of overall quality so has to be done with care.

The best and simplest reality check I can give to avoid being fooled by flawed measurements is a quick A/B check with headphones which any visitor here is free to try.

Someone on the Forum has his sign off as something like, "dont believe everything you read on the net" William Shakespeare 1604.
IW26 REW.JPG
 
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Steve356

Well-known Member
I think Steve is referring to the Steinway Model IW26 Atmos system here.

I'm not an expert on REW and while its a useful tool, one reading in a room cannot give the full picture but more importantly you must understand what you are looking at before jumping to conclusions.

A visitor a few weeks back measured the MK300 system as having very even response down to 10Hz. He then measured the Steinway system and the results given showed that below 100Hz the bass disappeared. He thought this reflected what he was hearing when everyone could feel the bass pulsing through them.

The reading he took is complete rubbish and must have been taken in error using the mic in the laptop. The point is, if I hadn't been around to correct this error, this would have been taken as evidence that the system lacks bass.

Enclosed is a reading of the same system I took yesterday which shows this system also plays relatively flat to 10Hz. Sorry its a photo, I'm like your Dad with PC's. A couple of visitors from the Forum will be visiting next week to take more readings of this system and hopefully will post their findings here to corroborate.

A system giving even response down to 10Hz is exceptional and having two next to each other to compare is interesting. The MK system here sounds fatter and fuller, which some people may prefer. The Steinway system is much more accurate and cleaner which others will love, especially those into music.

You can fatten up either system and the way to do this is with Voicings but adding too much bass can come at the expense of overall quality so has to be done with care.

The best and simplest reality check I can give to avoid being fooled by flawed measurements is a quick A/B check with headphones which any visitor here is free to try.

Someone on the Forum has his sign off as something like, "dont believe everything you read on the net" William Shakespeare 1604.
Thanks for responding to the question Rob. I wasn't sure what speakers were being used in the Steinway system in question and frankly don't care much. Still the best system I have heard to date bar none. But you already knew that as it's the one I sit in front of all time when I visit. ;):D

I don't see the photo that you said you attached.

Agreed on the new measurements showing something was wrong when Cory first measured. It will be interesting to see the changes and understand what went wrong when we next visit next weekend.
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
Someone on the Forum has his sign off as something like, "dont believe everything you read on the net" William Shakespeare 1604.
Pretty close...but it does apply to everyone, including me. ;)
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
ASIO rather than using Java for REW is the way to go as it completely disables whatever mic you don't want to use. Because windows at least has a tendency to lie.

Currently in the middle of a double secret probation experiment myself..
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
It really shouldn't make any difference, they're both digital outs, with the exception that the optical out has limited bandwidth vs HDMI both will use the same soundcard and you can't manipulate the sound that's delivered from windows to the receiver - for example if your windows sound properties say stereo full range speakers, the HDMI out will just feed the likely 8 channels it supports on board and let the receiver deal with it.

And as far as I know both the generator and recorder has to be the same machine, tho I might be wrong on that.
 

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