Gecko home cinema forum days

Topmetom 2

Well-known Member
Interesting this, been thinking of ditching dirac lately...i think my anthem mrx300 was equally as good as dirac...tbh i think arc was the best ive used. Admittedly ive never heard lyngdorf.
 

orange55

Well-known Member
ARC Genesis has been released too.
And that is an improvement. Better mid range clarity. Bass tighter and they have a new high frequency roll off setting that seems to help get a smoother sound with music.

Defiantly worth the upgrade.
 

DrGekko

Well-known Member

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
I never thought this day would come, but………….I like bagpipes.

Last weekend I was in Scotland helping serving and ex serving military as they took on the Cateran Yomp. This is a 24/36/48 mile walk in the Highlands taken on by a mix of US Marines, Rangers, Delta Forces as well as teams from the UK and other countries.

If you feel generous and would like to give back to these truly extraordinary people suffering with PTSD, this is the charity involved Donate

Over the weekend we had a formal dinner and were treated 2 two bagpipe solos. The second of which was a lament for lost comrades. To be so close to live instruments was incredibly moving and almost everyone was moved to tears.

Its not going to take over from my usual go to dem tracks but I’ll now have it as an option to hear. It also surprising just how loud the pipes are……..much louder than traditional hifis can play.

FYI I asked several people for a guide on how their military fits together and both said watch 12 Strong.

Amazon.com: Watch 12 Strong | Prime Video
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Hi All

Recently I’ve visited Seriously Cinema new showroom near St Albans and I found listening to the systems there really useful. If you have the time, I find listening to as many systems as possible a huge help….

Coming back to my systems I found that some of them were too bright which led to me making some dramatic changes to their set up with the addition of custom Voicings.

My starting point for these was the preferred target response Harman/JBL’s research established 20 years ago. This is what it looks like.

Harman target curve.jpg


This shows the preferred balance of bass to mid and high frequencies that people prefer for music. If you hear a system that is clean, clear and accurate but you don’t like it, it’s almost certainly the amount of bass comparted to the mid and high frequencies that you don’t like.

Look at the level of bass 85db compared to the high frequency 75db.

I’ve mirrored something similar to this making 5 Voicings for Film and Music each of which gives a little more bass and a little less mid and hf than the last.

It’s made watching movies much more fun and the dance music from my phone sounds incredible.

I’m looking forward to showing these off at the next Forum Day.

You may find this video of interest………

 

Oakdene

Active Member
Hi All

Recently I’ve visited Seriously Cinema new showroom near St Albans and I found listening to the systems there really useful. If you have the time, I find listening to as many systems as possible a huge help….

Coming back to my systems I found that some of them were too bright which led to me making some dramatic changes to their set up with the addition of custom Voicings.

My starting point for these was the preferred target response Harman/JBL’s research established 20 years ago. This is what it looks like.

View attachment 1192033

This shows the preferred balance of bass to mid and high frequencies that people prefer for music. If you hear a system that is clean, clear and accurate but you don’t like it, it’s almost certainly the amount of bass comparted to the mid and high frequencies that you don’t like.

Look at the level of bass 85db compared to the high frequency 75db.

I’ve mirrored something similar to this making 5 Voicings for Film and Music each of which gives a little more bass and a little less mid and hf than the last.

It’s made watching movies much more fun and the dance music from my phone sounds incredible.

I’m looking forward to showing these off at the next Forum Day.

You may find this video of interest………

Rob,

What can say other than this is music to my ears….

Look forward to your next Forum Day.

Dan
 

orange55

Well-known Member
Hi All

Recently I’ve visited Seriously Cinema new showroom near St Albans and I found listening to the systems there really useful. If you have the time, I find listening to as many systems as possible a huge help….

Coming back to my systems I found that some of them were too bright which led to me making some dramatic changes to their set up with the addition of custom Voicings.

My starting point for these was the preferred target response Harman/JBL’s research established 20 years ago. This is what it looks like.

View attachment 1192033

This shows the preferred balance of bass to mid and high frequencies that people prefer for music. If you hear a system that is clean, clear and accurate but you don’t like it, it’s almost certainly the amount of bass comparted to the mid and high frequencies that you don’t like.

Look at the level of bass 85db compared to the high frequency 75db.

I’ve mirrored something similar to this making 5 Voicings for Film and Music each of which gives a little more bass and a little less mid and hf than the last.

It’s made watching movies much more fun and the dance music from my phone sounds incredible.

I’m looking forward to showing these off at the next Forum Day.

You may find this video of interest………

Great. Any chance of sharing some of the voices?
 

orange55

Well-known Member

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member

orange55

Well-known Member
I have tried the curves for the Harman/JBL’s research provided by Rob this weekend. My feedback based on my room is they rob the sound of clarity for music. They have quite a major impact on the sound and maybe at reference they sound better, but at normal listening levels -30 to -24 range so as to not make your ears bleed they are not quite right.

Another set of research is from Bruel & Kjaer who produced the following curve:
gallery_36752_253_58081.jpg


It doesn't look that different. You can read about the full research here: https://www.bksv.com/media/doc/17-197.pdf

I spent a while last year mapping this to a Lyngdorf Voicing, not only looking at the end frequencies but where the critical mid range maps and the 2000hz crossover hitting the correct point.

Where this works really well is music that isn't recorded that well which is most of the 70's and 80's into 90's, where there is more of a high frequency focus. Plus at high volumes if you want to add more power to the music to help your ears bleed.

Here is the details of the filters required to make the curve.

Bruel Kjaer Curve
Overall Gain = 3

Type = High Shelf
Freg = 7000
Q = 0.5
Gain = -3

Type = High Shelf
Freg = 200
Q = 0.25
Gain = -3

Type = Parametric
Freg = 75
Q = 0.5
Gain = 1

I'd be interested in anyone feedback in there room.
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Thanks for the feedback, that's very useful.

I have found that each system here needs a different set of Voicings so I'm sure there is nothing that will be spot on for everyone.

There is also going to be a big difference in the EQ required for people using a home cinema at reference levels or high quality music at 20db below these levels. This is why you need a range of Voicings and it will require listening and tweaking for each room/system.

We also need an active loudness function............
 

orange55

Well-known Member
Thanks for the feedback, that's very useful.

I have found that each system here needs a different set of Voicings so I'm sure there is nothing that will be spot on for everyone.

There is also going to be a big difference in the EQ required for people using a home cinema at reference levels or high quality music at 20db below these levels. This is why you need a range of Voicings and it will require listening and tweaking for each room/system.

We also need an active loudness function............
Agree on all points.
 

Steve413

Well-known Member
I have tried the curves for the Harman/JBL’s research provided by Rob this weekend. My feedback based on my room is they rob the sound of clarity for music. They have quite a major impact on the sound and maybe at reference they sound better, but at normal listening levels -30 to -24 range so as to not make your ears bleed they are not quite right.

Another set of research is from Bruel & Kjaer who produced the following curve:
View attachment 1193020

It doesn't look that different. You can read about the full research here: https://www.bksv.com/media/doc/17-197.pdf

I spent a while last year mapping this to a Lyngdorf Voicing, not only looking at the end frequencies but where the critical mid range maps and the 2000hz crossover hitting the correct point.

Where this works really well is music that isn't recorded that well which is most of the 70's and 80's into 90's, where there is more of a high frequency focus. Plus at high volumes if you want to add more power to the music to help your ears bleed.

Here is the details of the filters required to make the curve.

Bruel Kjaer Curve
Overall Gain = 3

Type = High Shelf
Freg = 7000
Q = 0.5
Gain = -3

Type = High Shelf
Freg = 200
Q = 0.25
Gain = -3

Type = Parametric
Freg = 75
Q = 0.5
Gain = 1

I'd be interested in anyone feedback in there room.
I will upload this voicing when I get home today and give you feedback.
 

orange55

Well-known Member
I will upload this voicing when I get home today and give you feedback.
Steve, here is my Music one which may well work in your system?

Music Boost
Overall Gain = 2

Type = High Shelf
Freg = 120
Q = 0.6
Gain = -2

Type = Parametric
Freg = 90
Q = 0.5
Gain = 0.8

Type = Parametric
Freg = 3000
Q = 2
Gain = -3
 

Steve413

Well-known Member
Steve, here is my Music one which may well work in your system?

Music Boost
Overall Gain = 2

Type = High Shelf
Freg = 120
Q = 0.6
Gain = -2

Type = Parametric
Freg = 90
Q = 0.5
Gain = 0.8

Type = Parametric
Freg = 3000
Q = 2
Gain = -3
Thank you very much I will certainly give it a go and feedback.
 

Steve413

Well-known Member
Steve, here is my Music one which may well work in your system?

Music Boost
Overall Gain = 2

Type = High Shelf
Freg = 120
Q = 0.6
Gain = -2

Type = Parametric
Freg = 90
Q = 0.5
Gain = 0.8

Type = Parametric
Freg = 3000
Q = 2
Gain = -3
@orange55
I have uploaded your ‘Music Boost’ voicing and today is the first time I’ve had the chance to play some music using it.....and the good thing is I have the day to listen as I only have a couple of quotes to send out this morning and it’s then all day Listening........
I have just put on Enigma - MCMXC A.D. and have to say so far it is very good......the track ‘Callas Went Away’ has an extra layer of depth to it that’s great.

I have been flipping between ‘Music Boost’ and Neutral......is that what you do ?
I was not sure whether your voicing was a Boost to the Lyngdorf Music Voice or a Boost to the music being played?

Will write more later once I have had a listen to more different genres of music....

One question regarding your 2nd Filter is the gain correct at 0.8....?....when I try to enter it it reverts back to 0.
 
Last edited:

Ashmanuk

Well-known Member
hi Orange55
Thank you for sharing those voicings :thumbsup:

Quite interesting, Bruel curve cuts off the treble a fair bit yet for bright harsh recordings actually makes a lot of sense works better as you say the louder you go, but not for me.

Music Boost
Well at first was great seems to bring forward the midrange and going back to MUSIC kind of made that voicing sound a bit weak.
Then I played some Bass guitar tracks from Marcus Miller and then it all went wrong on my set-up.
Bass notes was too exaggerated and dull in sound.
Yet other material sounded more suited Dance types.

This voicing is the best of the two and I will mess around with different frequencies to see if I can adapt to my setup.

Would like to play around with say 30-35hz
Still trying to get my head around how voicings work but you're voicing will act as a good place to start

Really good having these thanks Orange55
 

orange55

Well-known Member
I have uploaded your ‘Music Boost’ voicing and today is the first time I’ve had the chance to play some music using it.....and the good thing is I have the day to listen as I only have a couple of quotes to send out this morning and it’s then all day Listening........
I have just put on Enigma - MCMXC A.D. and have to say so far it is very good......the track ‘Callas Went Away’ has an extra layer of depth to it that’s great.
Oh to have all day to listen to music. :)

I have been flipping between ‘Music Boost’ and Neutral......is that what you do ?
I was not sure whether your voicing was a Boost to the Lyngdorf Music Voice or a Boost to the music being played?
Music Boost is based on the Lyngdorf Music Voice, but has two additional filters which add the bass and low mid range boost. I switch between the standard 'Music' and my 'Music Boost'. I don't use Neutral for music. BTW, the Boost part of the name refers to the fact it is boosting the bass area of Music. As I am sure you have worked out.


One question regarding your 2nd Filter is the gain correct at 0.8....?....when I try to enter it it reverts back to 0.
Not sure why you are getting that. On my MP-50 in web mode on iPhone and Windows I can set 0.8 for the gain no problem. That is quiet an important filter as it gives the needed lift to the mid range.

Enjoy your day.
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Hi All

The Next Forum Day at Gecko will be on Sunday 6th October from 10-4.

Please let me know if you fancy coming for a listen and to meet up with other enthusiasts.

The systems here are under continual development but there has been one massive change that I’ve applied to two of the systems in the last few weeks that I think will be off interest.

I’ve created my own Voicings which affect the tonality of the systems, so the balance between the amount of bass, mid and high frequency. I believe Steinway Lyngdorf systems get everything else right but getting the tonality of the system just right is something that needs some adjustment.

This is my attempt to explain what Voicings do, why every system needs them and why you must have a range of Voicings to choose from.

THE NEED FOR VOICINGS

This graph is the result of research done over 20 years ago by Harman/JBL’s. It shows the target response of loudspeakers that listeners preferred. This was carried out in an attempt to understand the tonality of sound people like from a speaker system used in a regular living room.

There is about 10db more bass at 80Hz (85db) than high frequency at 1000Hz (75db). I trust this information so I’ve used this as my starting point when creating my Voicings.

Harman prefered loudspeaker target curve.jpg


If you take a speaker designed and tested in a highly treated space and then placed in a regular size living room it would give a lot more bass. This is because of the room gain that a regular living room would add to the bass frequencies.

We expect to hear this additional bass and this account for the 6.6db increase in bass at 105Hz that the graph shows people like

From my testing, I think the amount of bass the systems here give is usually very good for hifi but for film or dance music it may require a slight increase.

The mid and high frequency levels here however can be a bit too high. To compensate for this I have used the treble cut the graph shows people like of -2.4db above 2.5Hz as a guide.

MUSIC VOICINGS

One of the things I think a high-end home cinema should be able to do is play stereo music very well and this is something that Steinway Lyngdorf systems are unique in being able to deliver. We are much more discerning playing stereo than surround sound and so my starting point for the systems here is that they play all types of music very well.

The method I’ve used for creating my Voicings starts by listening to a range of stereo content I know well to try and establish where the problem lies. I have lots of excellent systems here as reference point, but I still find doing an A/B comparison, mid track with a pair of professional headphones an indispensable tool.
If an A/B comparison suggests the audio system is brighter than the headphones I’ll make a range of Voicings each with a little more roll off, like this:-

GAIN TYPE FREQ Q LEVEL
MUSIC 1 1 PA 3k .3 -1
MUSIC 2 2 PA 3k .3 -2
MUSIC 3 3 PA 3k .3 -3
MUSIC 4 4 PA 3k .3 -4
MUSIC 5 5 PA 3k .3 -5

Applying MUSIC 1 will make a very subtle difference which is what I’m after because I think most of the system here are already very good.

In day to day use I leave the systems at MUSIC 2 which makes the systems a little more forgiving and easier to listen to than without any Voicing. With a very good recording I may go to MUSIC 1 or NEUTRAL. If the recording is bright, I’ll go up to MUSIC 4 or 5.

FILM VOICINGS
I’ve had visitors here recently who I know were looking for more bass and after listening to a couple of systems in other show rooms recently, I agreed. After much testing however, I think the bass levels on the systems here are mostly very good and increasing this can becomes unpleasant and over bearing.

The adjustment needed was once again in reducing the mid and highs not increasing the bass. With the system sounding less harsh, volume levels can be increased a little and the overall balance seems perfect to my ears.

Different presents are definitely required to compensate for differences in the quality of recordings and listening levels. These are the sort of Voicings I’ve made for watching moves which give a similar reduction in mid and high frequencies while giving a slight increase in bass.

GAIN TYPE FREQ Q LEVEL TYPE FREQ Q LEVEL
FILM 1 1.5 PA 3k .3 -1 HS 110 .6 -1
FILM 1 1.5 PA 3k .3 -2 HS 110 .6 -2
FILM 1 1.5 PA 3k .3 -3 HS 110 .6 -3
FILM 1 1.5 PA 3k .3 -4 HS 110 .6 -4
FILM 1 1.5 PA 3k .3 -5 HS 110 .6 -5

LIMITATIONS

I’m sure that these Voicings need a little tweaking and will evolve over time. I’ve also found all the systems here require different settings, but I think these Voicings are a good starting point for systems using RoomPerfect.

RoomPerfect works differently from other room correction systems. It adds the bass boost you expect due to room gain but it does not apply a target curve to change the tonality or Voicing of your speakers.

All other systems I’m aware of apply a Voicing like the JBL target curve and change the sound of your speakers to match this. As such I can’t say how well these Voicings would work on systems using other room correction systems so I’d be very interested in any feedback.

OBSERVATIONS

The two cinema systems I’ve used for this testing, the Lyngdorf MK300 system and the Steinway Lyngdorf Model IW26V/S15 systems now deliver a sound that I’m certain any home cinema will lover. They are easier to listen to and more fun, but lets wait until the Forum Day to find out…..

The other thing I absolutely love about these additions is that listening to YouTube and Deezer is now absolutely incredible. I cannot wait to show this off when you visit.

Many people buy the Steinway Lyngdorf surround system because it is incredible for music in stereo. I’m happy that the very subtle Music voicings don’t compromise its performance but make more content fun to listen to even at crazy volume levels.

THE NEED FOR DIFFERENT VOICINGS

Let’s assume for a moment your systems sound fabulous, tonally, playing a favourite Blu Ray at high volume levels. You then play a different disc, say Star Wars and it sounds too bright. This is when a sequentially range of Voicings comes into their own.

Now play your favourite movie but at much lower levels. You’ll find the bass seems to have disappeared because we perceive different frequencies differently as volume levels change. Again the Voicings are a great work around to fix this.

I look forward to showing you these developments on the 6th.

R
 

jaygreen

Active Member
Damn can't you do it the weekend before !!!!

Would love to but off to France for a couple of weeks the 2/10. Oh well next time

Jason
 

jaygreen

Active Member
Sorry Jay, its already had to be moved around to fit in.......

You know where I am if you ever want a private viewing!
Of course Rob I was only “half” joking!!!!

Really appreciate the offer will definitely take you up on you up on it soon

Cheers

Jason
 

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