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Full resolution 3hr mode

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by jopereira, Nov 9, 2004.

  1. jopereira

    jopereira
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    I would like to ask you all:

    * can a DVD recorder make a full resolution, 3 hrs video, and still have a decent quality? (without too many macro-block visible)

    In Sony HX1000 thread this has many times considered a lacking feature (Sony machine).

    From my experience (in PC editing), mid-to-low TV image quality actualy beneficts from resolution downgrade (to 352x576) because the bitrate is just not enough for full resolution mode. This could be a 'pro' and not a 'con'...
    I would like to know from your experiences with your DVD recorder.

    ps - In PC, with top quality encoders, a DV source at 3 hours mode (3.300 Kbps), two-pass encode can (perhaps) have a 'decent' quality...
     
  2. Kevo

    Kevo
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    I have recorded 2 hours of VHS, SVHS and DTV sourced material at 352x576 and it looked very good, (near identical to the original in fact)

    Never tried 3 hours though at this res though.

    But at full res, the bit rate would be too low and would expect the quality to be poor

    I use a Pan E100 but author on a PC using TMPenc and Canopus Procoder encoders
     
  3. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Yes - you only need to view a 3hr recording on a Panasonic E500 to appreciate the MPEG encoder matters as much/more than the datarate. HCC and WVWE came to similar conclusions in their recent reviews.
     
  4. jopereira

    jopereira
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    As a user of software encoders, I do appreciate the work some encoders (like Canopus Procoder) can do. But I have yet to see an encoder working this low bitrate and maintain a sharp clear image... and I don't doubt the Panasonic can do such work (that's why I made the question in first place!).
    Most of the time we need 'denoiser' and 'blur' filters. While 'denoiser' is good, blur isn't.

    BTW, 1500€ are really out of question for me! I really need a sub 500€ recorder and maybe the Lite-on LVW-5045 may be the answer, but for now I don't rule out Sony and really would like to see it's 2-pass VBR encoder work on a TV captured image. DV editing is for PC.


    So, the question remains. Is there a 'normal' :) recorder that can produce good images in 3h mode?
     
  5. burcac

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    "I believe in miracles" - A 3 hour movie dvd release would be DVD9 not DVD5. The most efficient DVD recorder (panasonic) will still be less efficient than a 2-pass VBR encoder in a studio encoding from a component digital source. MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) is the only system I've seen that would do 3 hours of full D1 onto a single layer disc

    BTW The TBC and MPEG encoder in the Panasonic are a miracle for the money. It is efficient but NO more than a good pro MPEG encoder
     
  6. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Then you should have a look at more encoders! On the set-top market alone many of the major chipset makers have exceeded the 3hr/4.7GB full resolution mark now: Hitachi-LG, Panasonic and Thompson. For PCs there are several noteable budget encoders that can do it also. Of course professional 3pass non-realtime software achieved this years ago. MPEG4 is a totally different kettle of fish...
     
  7. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    As I'm sure you appreciate it entirely depends upon the images being recorded. If your recording 3hrs of low motion, infrequent screen activity are you seriously saying you have never seen an encoder achieve this well, whilst maintaining full resolution over 3hrs? If so I would be very surprised - especially if your using mainstream PC software. Naturally if you have scenes that require a high datarate then no encoder can achieve the impossible but without a doubt ...

    Just to clarify in the grand scheme of things the Panasonic MPEG encoders are only 'average' - but in the set-top DVD recorder market it is currently the best their is - and certainly better than most of the budget software MPEG2 encoders found for the home enthusiast PC user (i.e. TMPG Encoder in single pass).
     
  8. jopereira

    jopereira
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    Actually, Mainconcept and Procoder are the best for me. Even (the famous) CCE leaves something to desire...

    But once again, it depends on material. The above is true for (my) DV encoding. CCE really shines when it cames to movies. I don't use TMPGenc right now since others have done better.

    About low motion video: of course things get bad when it comes to (lots of) motion. I would like to see a F1 race without visible artefacts in 3hr mode. Can a 'normal' recorder do that in full resolution, 3hr mode (less than 3.333 Kbps)?

    ps - that's why I really think that may be better to have half-D1 instead (in this mode, of course). I've learnt that encoding VHS material (after been processed in a temporal denoiser).
     
  9. burcac

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    I've found VHS archiving at half-D1 to be quite lossy. The Panasonic at D1 is pretty close to the VHS master if you use the XP mode (1 hour of recording and still some artifacts!)

    Main problems are slightly crushed blacks, and inflexible audio (dolby digital only) on my cheapo e55
     
  10. burcac

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    You are right it can be done. I encoded MPEG2 at D1 at 2Mpbs on mainconcept and it was OK. But MPEG-4 AVC constant quality mode blows it all away. Shame it takes forever to encode
     
  11. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Ditto - much better results are achived using full resolution. Better to use two disks or dual layer ones than attempt to cramp extra footage from such a noisy source on a single 4.7GB DVD. It is frequently a different story though for low bitrate Digital TV - HCC came to the same conclusion in there review of the E500. Personally I tend to find low resolution content, even with high bitrates, looks quite poor on my setup.
     
  12. jopereira

    jopereira
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    I just hate those macroblocks :rolleyes: , and yes, it depends on each setup (and personal tastes!). With VHS source a temporal smoother really help keeping a low bitrate, and half-D1 (in my case) didn't seem to loss much quality (at least I prefer a softer image than a blocky one).
     
  13. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Which most decent encoders will smooth out these days. If you get blocking on a 3hr recording from low bitrate Digital TV (that wasn't originally broadcast) then something is wrong. What DVD recorder do you have jopereira?
     
  14. jopereira

    jopereira
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    I have none :cool:.
    About a year ago I made a promise to myself ;) : "I'll buy a recorder WITH HDD as soon as they are available at less than 500€" - that day has arrived with Lite-On (and most probably many other will arrive before Christmas).

    BUT.... if there is a "far better" recorder on the market, I'll buy it even if it costs more than 500€ - I said I would buy a recorder as soon as they're available for less than 500€, I didn't say I'll buy a recorder at a sub-500€ price :D

    A simple DVD recorder (without HDD) doesn't fit my requirements as I don't want to find myself looking for 'that' DVD with 'that' TV program. I just want to record TV programs, see and delete them. Occasionally, I'll want to keep something or get it into a DVD and send it to someone. The Sony would be nice (with it's 2-pass VBR), but I guess the lack of "fit to disk" feature probably will place it just above average (Lite-on as "fit to disk" feature).

    In terms of quality, I really don't want the extreme, just the acceptable. Perhaps we want it all; a 160Gb HDD can have 33 h of (very) good quality video. That's 11 3h VHS tapes!!! And a much better quality!! If I get that much on disk, I'm probably recording more than I will ever see! (by that time I really have to give up something and redefine my priorities :D )

    I'm I right?
     
  15. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    I think your right to look for a model better than the cheapest and to buy a HDD model if that's what you know you want. Based on their previous generation the Liteon will be very average and low on worthwhile features so I would say avoid it -for just a little bit more you could pickup a Panasonic, Pioneer or Toshiba (if you can buy this where you are) and the end results will MUCH better. You shouldn't discount the Sony off-hand either - the two models ARE good DVD recorders.
     
  16. jopereira

    jopereira
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    Thanks for advise.

    While I'm looking at other models (particularly Sony HX-900 and Pioneer 720H), the Lite-On will have price that is 40% lower... and I only want to record TV shows (deleting them after viewing).
    Said that, 200€ more don't make such a big hole in my pocket.

    I'm also thinking about a possible lower quality on Lite-On, but so far EVERY downside the 5005 model had (reviewed in July 2004 HCC) was corrected in 5045 model! (have never read a review on 5006 model that should be closer to 5045).
    Thumbs up to a manufacturer that listen to their clients :smashing: .
    And even has some new features like disk defragmenter!

    BTW, in HCC review only composite input was used as the model doesn't have RGB nor S-Video inputs. So the overall quality may have been affected by this (most reviews say that HQ modes are only an advantage with those high-quality inputs, including IEEE).
     
  17. army

    army
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    It is possible to get over 3 hours of decent quality video on 1 dvd-r. I can get 2 movies onto 1 dvd-r when copying the saved mpeg 2 stream [frame size 720x576 no re-encoding] from channel 5 freeview.[using a nova-t pci card] I think the PC way is far better than the home dvd recorder route. I would like to know what encoder channel 5 is using ?
     
  18. burcac

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    Many Channel 5 movies are 4:3 in 16:9 frame so lots of black border. Average full frame video is nearer 2 hour 20 minute on freeview.

    I think freeview uses Tandberg encoders, and yes they are amazing quality
     
  19. army

    army
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    Hello Burcac
    yes i agree some movies are 4:3 in a 16:9 frame. I've just put Terminator [full 16:9] & Last action hero[4:3 in 16:9] onto 1 dvd-r which used a total of 3.72 gig for 3hours 35 minutes of video. Both from channel 5.
    Journey to the c.o.t.earth from BBC2 [full 16:9] the dvd-r has used 3.04 gig for a 2hour 3min movie.
    Bridget jones diary from channel 4 [full 16:9] used 2.55 gig for a 1hour 30min movie.
    I think this is best way of getting broadcast quality[good or bad] onto dvd without having to re-encode.
     
  20. burcac

    burcac
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    Are you cutting out the adverts to make savings?
     
  21. army

    army
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    Yes i'm cutting out the adverts.
     
  22. burcac

    burcac
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    Which mpeg cutter do you use, I'm looking for something that doesn't re-encode?
     
  23. army

    army
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    I use MPEG2Cut to edit, then run the video file through PVAStrumento to make the file dvd compatible then i use Ulead DVD MovieFactory 3 Disc Creator to author and burn to dvd-r [using pioneer 108 & bulqpac orange dvd-r 8x or verbatim dvd+rw]
     
  24. burcac

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    Thanks, I'll give that a try! I'm using mpgtx.exe which is command line, and it makes dodgy streams!
     

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