FTTP Questions for new house

[email protected]

Well-known Member
Hi
I am soon to move into a new build house. Unfortunately I didn’t get to it before second fix so have missed the boat on some cabling options so will have to retrofit

in my previous home I had a full Ubiquiti UniFi system with a network rack in my office (where my PCs and NAS are connected with 10G Ethernet) feeding the rest of the home however in the new home I am trying to get my head around some options. Thus this post.

I can get full fibre to my house at 900mb (although I may only go for 500mb) and I understand this terminated on an ONT which will be right next to my front door. I understand there is then a copper Ethernet cable from the ONT to the ISPs modem. I assume this is gigabit Ethernet but would then question if you can genuinely get 900mb real world throughout over a 1000mb Ethernet connection as normally 80% is your best bet. But I digress

My office is upstairs so at first I thought I could run an Ethernet cable (copper or maybe fibre) back out the house, up the wall and into my office and then connect the ISP router to that, the ONT on the other end and then connect the ISPs hub into my rack. So far, I think this is not asking too much.

But I would also like to connect my network back downstair so rather than run 2 Ethernet cables outside, I was wondering could I use a switch downstairs?

Have one port on a dedicated VLAN for the ONT to connect up to the ISPs hub upstairs also on a dedicated port and then have a second port/s on separate VLANS to get back downstairs to other ports and other devices (such as access points) on the same switch

if the ONT is simply talking Ethernet then this all looks straight forward but finding any firm info online is proving difficult so any help is welcome. Is that ONT to ISPs hub really simply Ethernet or is their telco witchcraft at play here?

Thanks
 
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Puntoboy

Well-known Member
I had this, I ran 4 cables from the cupboard where the ONT is to my rack upstairs. 1 for the Internet, 2 for my office and one for the lounge (which was fed from the cupboard already by the builder). For me this was the best way as I didn't want anything else in that cupboard. But you could run the WAN connection in a VLAN via a switch.

I regularly get 900mbps on my connection btw.
 

mickevh

Distinguished Member
I can get full fibre to my house at 900mb (although I may only go for 500mb) and I understand this terminated on an ONT which will be right next to my front door. I understand there is then a copper Ethernet cable from the ONT to the ISPs modem. I assume this is gigabit Ethernet but would then question if you can genuinely get 900mb real world throughout over a 1000mb Ethernet connection as normally 80% is your best bet. But I digress

Ethernet is a very efficient technology at about 97% Protocol Efficiency - in ideal conditions you can get 110-118 MB/s (bytes) throughput at the application level (e.g. copying a file etc.) I'm splitting hairs of course, but it's a bit better than 80% at nearer 95% at the TCP level (in the network protocol model.) Also, your 900mbps ISP link may not be a "throughout" metric, it could be a Link Rate of which some will be lost to protocol overheads, but you'd need to check what your ISP is citing as specification to be sure.

But I would also like to connect my network back downstair so rather than run 2 Ethernet cables outside, I was wondering could I use a switch downstairs?

AVF mantra when installing cables is to "always install two (or more)." Cable is cheap compared to the hassle of installing it. It is highly unlikely for UTP to fail in service, (though "weather" effects externally routed cable sooner than indoors,) but if it does and you have no alternate in situ, you are off the air until you rip and replace. Depending on the failure cause, with an alternate in situ, you stand a change of getting something back up and running sooner.

You can certainly do what you suggest using VLAN's (over a single cable - or multiple cables in something called an "Aggregated Link" - but that's another story.) Though you will need "something" upstairs that can also talk VLAN's - either a switch or a VLAN aware router (though that's unlikely to be a ISP freebie) to facilitate the routing topology. Also, you'll need to learn a bit about how to configure VLAN capable devices (e.g. managed switches) - it's not hard, but there is a learning curve - it won't just be plug an play. You're going to need to learn about things with names like "port trunks," how to allocate switch ports to VLAN's.

Bear in mind that the physical capacity on an ethernet link is finite and shared between all VLAN's using said link. So if you have VLAN 1 and VLAN 2 on, let's say, a gigabit ethernet link, that gigabit of ethernet capacity is shared (actually "competed for" is a better metaphor, it's usually not "fairly" allocated unless you have gear than can load balance/manage) by both (all) VLAN's transmitting across the link. One could argue that the VLAN "tags" added to traffic transiting a trunked link robs a bit of throughput - but it's tiny, I doubt we'd be able to measure the difference.
 
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[email protected]

Well-known Member
Ethernet is a very efficient technology at about 97% Protocol Efficiency - in ideal conditions you can get 110-118 MB/s (bytes) throughput at the application level (e.g. copying a file etc.) I'm splitting hairs of course, but it's a bit better than 80% at nearer 95% at the TCP level (in the network protocol model.) Also, your 900mbps ISP link may not be a "throughout" metric, it could be a Link Rate of which some will be lost to protocol overheads, but you'd need to check what your ISP is citing as specification to be sure.



AVF mantra when installing cabled is to "always install two (or more)." Cable is cheap compare to the hassle of installing it. It is highly unlikely for UTP to fail in service, (though "weather" effects externally routed cable more quicklu that indoors,) but if it does and you have no alternate in situ, you are off the air until you rip and replace. Depending on the failure cause, with an alternate in situ, you stand a change of getting something back up and running sooner.

You can certainly do what you suggest using VLAN's (over a single connector.) Though you will need "something" upstairs that can also talk VLAN's - either a switch or a VLAN aware router (though that's unlikely to be a ISP freebie) to facilitate the routing topology. Also, you'll need to learn a bit about how to configure a VLAN capable devices (e.g. managed switches) - it's not hard, bu there is a learning curve - it won't just be plug an play. You'd going to need to learn about things with names like "port trunks," how to allocate switch ports to VLAN's.

Bear in mind that the physical capacity on an ethernet link is finite and shared between all VLAN's using said link. So if you have VLAN 1 and VLAN 2 on, let's say, a gigabit ethernet link, that gigabit of ethernet capacity is shared (actually "competed for" is a better metaphor, it's usually not "fairly" allocated unless you have gear than can load balance/manage) by both VLAN's.
Thanks Mick

in my previous property I had a multi core fibre run outside from downstairs to upstairs as I wasn’t planning on moving any time soon (and it wasn’t cheap) but here we are.

My fall back is WiFi and 5G so redundancy isn’t the issue.

The kit to support this is there. As I said, a full rack of UniFi hardware including gateways, switches, access points, routers and so on so configuring this is pretty simply.

my concern (and thus the question) is if the ISP is doing anything funky with the Ethernet connection between the OTN and their hub that would stop me channeling their P2P connection over a shared Ethernet link. In theory I shouldn’t even need to use a dedicated VLAN but keeping the number of retransmits down on that connection due to other traffic is probably a sensible idea.

if I could locate some suitable multi core, externally rated Ethernet cable then I would happily run that up the outside of my house but multiple cables would look messy as they would be on the front of the house and there are too many tight corners for a sensible fibre run.

Thanks
 

Rodders53

Distinguished Member
Install some plastic 20mm conduit on the outside wall and run 2/3/4 standard ethernet cables through that.
No need for UV rated ethernet cables or trying to make multiple ones look neat?


Solvent weld any joins to junction boxes, and (hand) bending springs are available, too.
 

Puntoboy

Well-known Member
I'm with BT for my FTTP connection, I can't see why they would do anything on the ONT side to stop the PPPoE connection working over a VLAN. But as Mickevh said, running more cables than you need is always a wise idea. I ran mine through the stud walls into the loft from the cupboard under the stairs. One small access hole in the ceiling just outside the cupboard was needed but otherwise it was a simple run.
 

[email protected]

Well-known Member
Install some plastic 20mm conduit on the outside wall and run 2/3/4 standard ethernet cables through that.
No need for UV rated ethernet cables or trying to make multiple ones look neat?


Solvent weld any joins to junction boxes, and (hand) bending springs are available, too.
I had thought of that but there are several corners to deal with which would again look quite messy. It may end up being my only option though
 

Puntoboy

Well-known Member
Install some plastic 20mm conduit on the outside wall and run 2/3/4 standard ethernet cables through that.
No need for UV rated ethernet cables or trying to make multiple ones look neat?


Solvent weld any joins to junction boxes, and (hand) bending springs are available, too.

When I ran cables (copper and fibre) out to my garage I ran a 40mm duct down the wall and tucked it behind the downpipe for the gutter so you could barely see it.
 

[email protected]

Well-known Member
I'm with BT for my FTTP connection, I can't see why they would do anything on the ONT side to stop the PPPoE connection working over a VLAN. But as Mickevh said, running more cables than you need is always a wise idea. I ran mine through the stud walls into the loft from the cupboard under the stairs. One small access hole in the ceiling just outside the cupboard was needed but otherwise it was a simple run.
I would love to run internally (and I will still have a try when I get but it will have to run up external walls which from what I can see are packed solid with insulation making a cable run rather tricky.
 

mickevh

Distinguished Member
Multi-core fiber would do the job in a single "jacket" as it were. It's ages since I did any fibre, but I used to (have) run 4/8/16 core fibers occasionally and then break them out into separate lines on the patch panels.

Of course, if you don't already have (or buy) switches with fiber ports or something like GBIC/SFP sockets, you're going to need ethernet/fibre trancievers each end which are "extra boxes" (needing power) and "one more thing" in the chain to go wrong. I've had issues with transceivers in the past - which may just have been "bad luck" with the kit I inherited - but I prefer to avoid them if I can in favour of things like the aforementioned switch with fibre/GBIC/SPF ports.

I am not sure about the ONT presentation - I believe it's just straight up "ethernet" without any kind of "magic sauce" applied, but I don't know that for sure.

However, you will need something like VLAN or separate cable lobes to keep the "external" an "internal" traffic either "side" of your router separated. You cannot rely on the PPP link from your router to ISP as if you then put your "internal" traffic down the same line, you will be directly exposing your "internal" network to the Internet and it basically just won't work as you expect.

Your "router" is the boundary between "your" (internal) network and the "rest of the world" (external) networks. Whether by separate cables or technology like VLAN's (which achieves the same thing) the two must be kept separate.
 
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mickevh

Distinguished Member
I had thought of that but there are several corners to deal with which would again look quite messy. It may end up being my only option though
Sometimes people use (plumbers type) "elbow" joints to get round the corners. You do have to be mindful of the minimum bend radius on the cable though. However, others here are better experienced in such matters of cable routing than me.
 

[email protected]

Well-known Member
Multi-core fibre would do the job in a single "jacket" as it were. It's ages since I did any fibre, but I used to run 4/8/16 core fibres occasionally and then break them out into separate lines on the patch panels.

Of course, if you don't already have (or buy) switches with fibre ports or something like GBIC/SFP sockets, you're going to ethernet/fibre trancievers which are "extra boxes" (needing power) and "one more thing" in the chain to go wrong. I've had issues with transceivers in the past - which just have been "bad luck" with the kit I inherited - so prefer to avoid them if I can in favour of things like the aforementioned switch with fibre/GBIC/SPF ports.

I am not sure about the ONT presentation - I believe it's just straight up "ethernet" without any kind of "magic sauce" applied, but I don't know that for sure.

However, you will need something like VLAN or separate cable lobes to keep the "external" an "internal" traffic either "side" of your router separated. You cannot rely on the PPP link from your router to ISP as is you then out your "internal" traffic down the same line, you will be directly exposed to the Internet and is basically just won't work as you expect.
The problem with DIY fibre is you need to drill BIG holes in your outside wall as you have to buy them pre made.

otherwise if you buy a role of fibre plus then decide to splice the pigtails on yourself you need some very specialist (and expense) splicing kit

as I said, last time I paid for someone to do this. My kit supports 10G SFPs and I have a number of them to hand. In this case, it’s the splicing

but as I have seen you mention, I don’t need 10G from upstairs to downstairs although as I said, the kit IN my office is all on 10G but that’s because I do photo and video editing straight off my NAS so 1G up/down is plenty and to be fair, if the cabling is right, you could run 10G over copper in the future if needed.
 

mickevh

Distinguished Member
I concur - fibre is not something I've ever done myself, I always paid professionals to do the work for me (and guarantee it) - though of course that's easy when you are spending someone else's money and not your own!
 

Puntoboy

Well-known Member
The problem with DIY fibre is you need to drill BIG holes in your outside wall as you have to buy them pre made.

otherwise if you buy a role of fibre plus then decide to splice the pigtails on yourself you need some very specialist (and expense) splicing kit

as I said, last time I paid for someone to do this. My kit supports 10G SFPs and I have a number of them to hand. In this case, it’s the splicing

but as I have seen you mention, I don’t need 10G from upstairs to downstairs although as I said, the kit IN my office is all on 10G but that’s because I do photo and video editing straight off my NAS so 1G up/down is plenty and to be fair, if the cabling is right, you could run 10G over copper in the future if needed.

For my single fibre that I ran to my garage, I didn't have to drill a bigger hole than I did for the multiple copper cables I ran. Depends on the type of fibre you are running though.
 

oneman

Well-known Member
For my single fibre that I ran to my garage, I didn't have to drill a bigger hole than I did for the multiple copper cables I ran. Depends on the type of fibre you are running though.
20mm hole should be enough even for a duplex connector.
 

oneman

Well-known Member
True, but multi-strand fibre could need a bigger hole.
Shouldn't really need much bigger, they are normally pig tailed to go into a patch panel so can feed one connector through at a time. The actual cable isn't much thicker.

Where might need bigger hole if using riser or external grade cable but to be honest you are probably better off getting a pro in for laying that.
 

Ross Martin

Active Member
Although not using BT as FTTP isn't at ours for another month, i have my Virgin router (Yes i know but that was the best i could get!) which is downstairs go into a switch and i tag that traffic so it is on a VLAN called 60. I then have two CAT 6a cables go to my loft comms cabinet, these are configured as a Trunk and use Link Aggregation to my loft switch. My router is plugged into one of the ports and and these are also tagged on VLAN 60. This provides my internet connection to my PF Sense router. It works perfectly and also allows me to use the other vlans and ports on the switch downstairs with no issues.

I can't imagine anything BT will do that will cause an issue as the output of their kit is just ethernet and any other config would be done on your switch after the data has left the ISP router.
 

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