Front 7.1 'effects' speakers - should I use a pair of BOOKSHELFS or BIPOLE speakers?

[EghamHomeCinema]

Sorry for repeating myself but no-one answered by previous post (too long? too complicated ?) and now it's dropped out of view . . . . . .

For my Yamaha 7.1 system I am adding a pair of front 'effects' speakers.

Should I use 'normal' bookshelf speakers or a pair of Bipole Speakers ?

(Mission 73s or Mission 70DS)

Thanks.

 

[EghamHomeCinema]

I called Mission and they had not heard of this type of 7.1 and I called Yamaha who were not able to comment on Dipole type speakers - ahhhh!

Then I called my local 7oaks and the guy was more than helpful.

The way that Yamaha create the sound in the effects speakes is to matrix somehow the sound from the mains and the centre to create a presence effect.

The Bipoles also add jiggerypokery to create a 'new' sound. This adding the two is overlaying two different effects and would proberly muddy the sound.

So the answer is to use standard bookshelfs to project the new sound . . . then to use the Bipoles for surround INSTEAD of my rear floorstanders . . . what!

New thread 'question' to be written !

 

[Ian J]

Sorry I missed your post but the strict answer to your question is that you should use direct radiating speakers as the extra fronts and not bipoles but it does beg the question - "why are you bothering ?" as it isn't a recognized format but just some jiggery pokery that yamaha dreamt up in the days of Pro Logic which I thought had been long forgotten.

 

[clarky78]

I'm intrigued as to what theoutcome is, do you find it worthwhile, as i find 7.1 less than worthwhile and am tempeted to try this.

 

[Knyght_byte]

does your amp have the front presence thing then clarky? i didnt think Yamaha pursued it beyond a couple of their top range amps a good few years ago now......

i remember seeing all the diagrams in What Hifi...hehe they raved on about it something chronic.......then once it came out there wasnt really a lot said about it as it wasnt really that necessary apparently.....heh

 

[EghamHomeCinema]

I have a Yamaha A1 which was born about 1998 and heralded as a yamaha's reference amp.

The quality of the amp is amazing but technology-wise it is from the last century ! (no HD, no compenent connections)

However it's 'sound' is great and it does standard Digital 5.1 really well.

The progression to 6.1, 7.1 etc, even now, is jiggery-pokery sound matrixing of some sort.
The Yamaha way of adding 2 addition speakers to the front has been ignored by other manufacturers and they have opted to go with adding 2 centres to the rear for 7.1. However, Yamaha have kept the front 'presence' speakers in there latest amps (e.g. 750se [see page 14 of this manual])
http://www.yamaha-uk.com/pdf/owner_manuals/DSP-AX750SE.pdf
Bringing the potential number of speakers to a 'dont tell the wife' 9 speakers in the lounge!

So, (due to my personal budget) I have a choice change the amp for a lower quality, but new, 7.1 or stick with the high quality 5.1. I have chosen the later.

Yamaha's idea of adding the front 'effects' speakers sounds an ok idea so that is my reason for 'why bother'. But, there is a slight doubt in my mind over whether there will be any real benifit and whether I should simply stick with 5.1 rather than add the additional speakers . . . but hey , gotta play !

Claky78 - I will be setting the lot up when I move house on the 9th(ish) of March so give me a mail to '[email protected]' - as I will probably forget to reply - about the end of March and I will tell you whether it is worth it.

 

[Knyght_byte]

im in my bedroom so no female worries atm, i got 11 speakers and a sub.....lol

well, i'm one of the people who finds the 7.1 setup works very well in my room and with my equipment so im happy to have my Denon 3803

i'd be interested to hear if you did get some bookshelfs for the front presence channels to hear what it gives to the soundfield and effect....

i must admit, one way in which i think surround audio should go is to have ceiling (and possibly floor) channels......i reckon that could really shake things up...heh..rather than just adding extra speakers around the sides/rear of the room......i guess teh Yammy presence channels come close as i seem to remember they were supposed to be placed above and behind the front left and right channels......

didnt realise yammy kept the idea in their more current amps tho, kudos to them for sticking with the idea in the face of competition...lol

 

[Helicon]

Yamaha's front effects speaker system was originally designed in the days of Pro-Logic, but with a little adjustment it has survived the digital formats.

For those who have had it demonstrated properly to them, they will have heard it's benefits, it makes quite a difference. Front to rear effects panning is better, and the depth of the front soundstage can be adjusted. The chances are those that have tried it at home have been disappointed as it's probably been implemented incorrectly, but those who have done it properly have probably enjoyed a much bigger and better soundfield.

Yamaha have been doing this longer than anyone, they know what they're doing. If it wasn't worth adding it to an amp, they wouldn't do it.

 

[EghamHomeCinema]

Yammy are banging on with their idea even though it has not been taken up by other manufactures (or the general public).

I think that Yamaha are ahead of the game thinking about height as well as the current 360 circle at ear height.

It does seem that the natural next step, for full 3D sound, is to have 'up and down' to compliment the 'forward-back' and 'Left-right' we currently have.

How about this.

8 speakers, in all *8* corners of the room.
(Floor FL/FR/RL/RR & Ceiling FL/FR/RL/RR)

6 left-right 'Centre' speakers
(Floor Front/Rear, Ceiling Front/Rear & Eye level 'Centre Centre' Front/Rear)

6 front-back 'Centre' speakers at
(Floor Left/Right, Ceiling Left/Right & Ear level Left/Right)

There would probably be a whole load of problems with pushing sound from so many speakers but at least you could pin point noises in full 3D sound.

 

[Helicon]

It's a Yamaha creation, and it's not an idea they have ever sold to other manufacturers. In the Pro-Logic days, it kept them well above the competition (along with other features), but now the gap has narrowed. But anyone using the front effects can be well rewarded.

 

[clarky78]

does your amp have the front presence thing then clarky? i didnt think Yamaha pursued it beyond a couple of their top range amps a good few years ago now......

i remember seeing all the diagrams in What Hifi...hehe they raved on about it something chronic.......then once it came out there wasnt really a lot said about it as it wasnt really that necessary apparently.....heh

Yes, as does the 757 too, so they are obviously intending sticking with it.

Though they are spring clips, which put me off when i bought t he amp, because i thought they were the surround channels at first!

 

[Helicon]

The front effects use a limited bandwidth signal, mainly mid frequencies, so there's no real need for chunky binding posts and cables...and amps are built to a budget too, which means cutbacks in certain areas.