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From LCD to CRT!

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Godfather, Jul 21, 2004.

  1. Godfather

    Godfather
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    I've just gone from LCD (Sony VW12HT) to a Barco CRT and all I can say is I wish I had done it sooner! I suspect most folks browsing the LCD/DLP forum wouldn't venture onto the CRT forum, so here's a link to my thread over there:

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142256

    Anyone who currently owns a CRT TV or RPTV should think seriously before getting a LCD/DLP projector - I was perfectly happy with my 56" Toshiba RPTV for 4 years, but once I started going into digital projectors (Panny AE300 then Sony VW12) I was never fully satisfied with the image.
     
  2. ShinObiWAN

    ShinObiWAN
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    Glad you like the CRT.

    I've just come from the other side of the coin, CRT to Digital. :)

    I did have a Barco 808 and the picture was fantastic but even a die hard CRT fan such as myself has to admit that the latest generation of top flight digitals such as the Sharp Z12000 come so close to 7" performance that the difference isn't worth mentioning, in fact the sharp is brighter and sharper by a fair bit than my old 8" barco with black levels being very good.

    Of course the digitals you owned are LCD's and older ones at that. IMO LCD will never come close to CRT. I moved over to the HS20 and whilst the picture was good it was a joke compared to the Barco.
     
  3. Messiah

    Messiah
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    Ditto. Always nice when you settle down and feel totally satisfied with your purchase. Congrats.

    Have to concur with ShinObiWAN above. I had a Barco 7" CRT but got so fed up with tweaking and image softness that I moved to digital. At first it was LCDs (TW100, LPX500) and was rather underwhelmed but since getting my Marantz S3 DLP I have never looked back. I'm afraid I could never ever go back to CRT now as I believe the image I now get, added to less hassle and more flexibility, far exceeds what I had with the CRT.

    Enjoy :)
     
  4. Godfather

    Godfather
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    I'm glad both of you are so happy with your DLPs, especially after owning CRTs. Unfortunately, even though I don't see rainbows, I get 'eye strain' after about 30 minutes - 1 hour on the few DLPs I looked at - NEC 1100, Sim 300, Sharp Z10000, BenQ 8200 (I think). Messiah, which Barco did you have? I don't find the image of the 7LT soft at all - sure it's not pixel-sharp like the digitals, but it's got a great film-look which IMO is one of its (many) strengths.
     
  5. Messiah

    Messiah
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    I had a 701S with the HD145 lenses. The softness was a joke bh and even when I went and viewed one at Rolands I did not think it was any different so knew mine was set up pretty well. I too used to get eyestrain with theHT1100 and MT8 but not a jot on the S3 (just as well :eek:)
     
  6. Paul D

    Paul D
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    I rate the Cine7 very highly, and as you have found can give a truely stunning image. (my favourite Pj from Event 1)
    I found the colours and picture texture to be fantastic, and as you say beats most budget/mid priced digital projectors hands down.
    But remember no projector is perfect, and after i while you will start to notice things.

    After reading all the positives about CRTs (on the fourms), i wrongly assumed there wasn't any downsides.
    I really did love my CRT, but as time went on they started to emerge.
    Understand that i'm not knocking CRT, but i wish fellow CRTers had been a little more upfront and less elite'st with the realities of owning a CRT.

    For example:-
    With CRT, the sharpness can only get worse as the tubes age, making PC viewing a pain except with the very best 9"ers etc.
    Even setting a new resolution or refresh rate on the PC involved another few hours of tweaking.
    All that just to realise that brightness of the image changed due to the scan lines being nearer or further apart!
    Crts also struggle when there is a lot of light in a scene due to haloing and the spot beam having to illuminate the entire screen at once.
    Also bright scenes can washout, losing detail.
    Higher refresh rates need to be run to avoid flicker, but this can lead to a softer image.
    I even saw a kind of rainbow effect with CRTs!

    I imagine CRT snobbery started when the first LCD projectors appeared. They were aweful, and i think this cemented peoples minds that digital meant crap.
    I have no loyalty to either camp and stay open minded to any new technology.

    I was in two minds what to upgrade too. I knew Digitals were getting much much better, but i still loved the cinematic image the Barco could give.
    I realised that to get rid of the haloing(internal reflections between the CRT face and lens etc) i would need the CRT to be liquid coupled.
    To get the sharpness i wanted, a minimum of a least a 9" Barco 1209s and ideally a Cine9 or Sony G90 would be needed! :eek:
    I was seriously sorting out my finances to go for the Cine9 when i had a reality check!
    £20,000 + £5,000 for PJ and scaler plus £5,000 for other gear needed to get the best from it.

    So assuming i watched at least 1 film a day for the next three years, would be 1095. (Assuming i didn't get ill, or go on holiday and that i can find that many good new films!)

    £30,000 divided by 1095 films = £27.39 each! :suicide:

    I expect three chip SXRD/LCOS/DLP(Eclipse) with amazing contrast and perfect blacks at "resonable" prices to be available in three years. The Sony SXRD seems good already, and the 3 chip DLPs are not far behind.

    In three years time, i would have gotten something back for the CRT Equipment. But i feared not many people would be prepared to buy such a large secondhand projector with all the hassles. When smaller /neater brand new digitals can be had for probably less than i would be willing to let it go for. :rolleyes:

    I went from a Barco808s to the Marantz S3 DLP and think it is the best move i have ever made. :thumbsup:

    Zero flicker, razor sharp image, colourful and bright.
    Blacks are superb, leaving only total black to be improved upon.
    No haloing, and bright scenes don't wash out.
    I see less rainbows than my CRT! :laugh:
    Detail levels via HDMI/DVI are reference making normal DVDs seem like Hi-Def.
    Computer via DVI is a dream, with games looking fantastic(with no burn in)

    BUT it is not perfect!
    Rainbows although rare are still seen.
    Pans can posterise slightly (Clay face)
    Black level although near perfect, still isn't "total" black.

    If i was to just compare CRT(inc Cine/G90) v Digital (inc SXRD/3 Chip DLP) for the sole purpose of DVD watching, then CRT would still be my first choice.
    Pound for pound CRTs still make sense in this case.

    However as multi-media and Hi-def sources expand, picture sharpness and brightness start to be very important.
    Black levels are already nearly there, and very very soon BE there.

    I jumped ship earlier than most CRT users, but how many present CRT owners can honestly say that in three years they will be thinking of buying another CRT?(Ok OK i know SOME will!!! :D )

    I do wonder what i would do if i won the lottery. :lesson:

    Would my new cinema include twin stacked Cine9s/G90s, or would i wait a few months for the emergence of a true black, high resolution digital?
    I would imagine the twin stacked 9"ers would give the best picture, but i don't think i could go back to CRTs little hassles. ;)
    Life with the S3 is just so simple, making me use the room so much more.

    Either way, enjoy what ever display you have. That's what really counts :clap:
     
  7. ShinObiWAN

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    Your words make sense and echo my own thoughts Fulabeer.

    The advantages of a digital, for me, outweighed the only gain with CRT which was more cinematic images.

    Personally I use a projector for everything really, DVD's, surfing, gaming, general computing and even TV occasionally. And a digital really does become supreme to a multi user such as myself. For the barco I had to converge and setup for everyone of the sources, resolutions and refresh rates - around 6 in all! With the digital I use 1:1 mapping with the HTPC and let the internal scaler do its magic with the TV, dead easy!

    I can even take it round to a mates and its setup ready to go in minutes, something I couldn't dream of with my old Barco.

    But watch a DVD and you don't get the same 'pull' as you did with the CRT and to some thats worth any hassles.
     
  8. Godfather

    Godfather
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    Thanks for the great post Fulabeer. The Marantz sounds like a really decent projector. I'll have to make an effort to see one.

    Have you tried any black and white material on your Marantz? I guess this is not a concern for the majority of projector buyers but it's essential for me as I've over 200 of them in my collection. Black and white films look incredibly good on the Barco - I think they really benefit from the high contrast and spot brightness of CRTs, whereas I must say these films always look 'flat' on all the digitals (up to the £6k mark) I've looked at and cannot come close to recreating the look of projected 35mm film. I preferred watching b&w material on my 29" TV than on the LCD projector. I guess it's a contrast/black level issue.
     
  9. ShinObiWAN

    ShinObiWAN
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    Godfather,

    I watched Schindlers List on the Barco 'just' before I sold it.

    I must say that CRT cannot be beaten for this sort of stuff. I've just tried it again after reading your post on my Hitachi TX100 and it looks so crap compared to the Barco. Granted the Hitachi is only an LCD but its one of the best of the current generation.

    The lower end of the grey scale has a redish tint to it that is extremely off putting for b&w material. If you correct it then skin tones don't look natural anymore. I have fully calibrated the projector using AVIA BTW, so its not just crap settings :) Quite the contrary, its the best I can get the projector looking without colourfacts or similar.

    CRT's are simply awesome when it comes to colour accuracy. LCD's, DLP's and anything else digital is still, for me, a good couple of years behind in this regard.
     
  10. Paul D

    Paul D
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    Black and white material is both good and bad on the S3.(Compared to the Barco)

    I have found that small, bright objects on black backgrounds, is were you actually see rainbows at their best. :rolleyes:
    Meaning your B&W material could be a nightmare if it is very contrasty and you suffer rainbows.
    You won't see them all the time, but they could drop you out of the film when you do see them!

    The Barco was very natural with B&W films, giving a very fluid feel to the image. The softer nature of CRT seems to give an advantage with older films, as it hides film grain etc.

    The S3 gives a very accurate greyscale, and has very good contrast making the B&W image almost vibrant. But this is not desirable with older material as you know.
    To get round this problem, the S3 has a setting which would make you swear you was watching CRT. It does this by lowering the colour temp, and altering the gamma.(i think)

    The S3 doesn't suffer from haloing, meaning brighter B&W scenes don't washout. Liquid coupled CRTs are better, but don't totally get rid of this effect.
    There is also no flicker present with the S3, but again CRT flicker can actually add to the attraction of B&W films!
    I found my CRT sometimes displayed a slight blue tinge round objects due to the blue tubes slight misfocus. (Needed for correct calibration etc)

    What the S3 cannot do is give the "texture" a CRT projector gives. The B&W picture from CRT is almost organic in nature, and very desirable.

    I think that most people must understand is yes i love my S3, but for pure DVD watching, a new or high end CRT properly setup and calibrated is simply unmatched.

    But this is were the rub is for a lot of us. I found myself swamped with far to many variables when trying to keep my CRT at it's best.
    I have forgotten the hours i have had to put in to keep my CRT sweet. Even then i was never totally sure if the picture was optimum, as i don't have the calibration equipment.
    Adjusting anything on a CRT effects something else.
    Just setting up a new resolution alters the colour temperature/brightness.
    I think buying a new CRT would be much more accurate and stable, but as mentioned "new" liquid coupled start off £15,000 upwards.

    The MarantzS3 and Sharp12K although far from perfect really are a new breed of digital projector.
    At least speaking for the S3, i have found it to give a very colour accurate image. It was the least digital looking projector i had seen, and the very reason i bought one.
    I went to CRT in the first place because i was disappointed with the last generation of LCD and DLPs.

    I travelled the country in search of a viable alternative to the Barco, and only the S3 fitted my requirements.
    The S3 gives me everything i liked about the Barco except it's "total" fade to black.
    It then adds to this with better reds/sharpness/convergence/focus.
    It does this without any fuss or drama, and the best bit being that the image is consistant from source to source.
    The picture is the same everytime it is switched on, without having to wait while it warms up.

    A nice little trick is the S3s auto calibration lens cap. As the bulb ages, so does it's colour ouput. The cap can be used to keep everything accurate.
    This has been measured at +/- 200k, 6300-6700K D65 so not ISF standards, but good enough for most.

    As i mentioned the Cine7 really is a superb CRT, and i'm not suprised you are thrilled. Before the S3, i would have had to agree with your thoughts that there wasn't anything digital to match it. But times change and digital is improving by the day.
    I'm just waiting to see how the new H77 HD2+8segment DLP looks. The RRP is only £3500! :eek:
    I don't want one, but it might be one i recommend when i friend asks for a suggestion.

    But the fact remains is that your CRT is sweet no matter what else comes out, and being new should give you years of trouble free movie watching!!! :smashin:
     
  11. Godfather

    Godfather
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    I'm glad I went for CRT then - halos around bright white objects is better than rainbows! As you say being new it's quite trouble free, the only 'tweak' I do is keeping an eye on the convergence from time to time. I'll keep my Cine 7LT for at least 3-5 years, by then there should be some digitals that meet my requirements, may be. :)
     

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