Freeview pci PVR - I'm Impressed. Neubula or Black Gold???

[Rob.Screene]

The other night a mate showed me a little £900 ShuttleX based Windows Media Center 2005 with a Black Gold Freeview pci tv card.

At about £80-£110 I think these TV cards are a great idea.

It's unlikely I'd buy Media Center, as he was having a nightmare configuring it for an S-video display and setting 16:9 wide mode properly which I'd say are pretty big shortcomings for such a device. It did look good for a lounge Sky+ or TiVO competitor though, very cute and friendly looking with nice transparent on-screen graphics.

I'd appreciate any comments, as here is what I'd like a freeview card to do:

1. I'd like to add a freeview card to my Windows XP Pro media server pc, as it's got an aerial socket right next to it. I don't have an aerial to my HT room, nor a spare slot in my HTPC.

2. I'd need to control scheduling remotely either with an automated guide or remote resktop to the server.

3. I'd like to be abple to watch Top Gear, etc on my CRT projector using my Windows XP Home HTPC over my gigabit LAN.

4. Ideally these would be in bit-perfect MPEG2 (DVD) format so I can use my x-card/Holo3d faroudja card to get best deinterlacing quality.

5. I'd like to be able to archive bits of Top Gear, 5th Gear, etc to DVD-R, again, ideally just the native MPEG2 stream without re-encoding, just editing out the boring bits.

I've read that the Black Gold is a few quid cheaper and works in Microsoft Media Center, but my mate who previously had a Nebula said that was better???

Your thoughts and advice appreciated.
cheers,
Rob.

 

[Branxx]

I give a definitive vote for Nebula. I have two of them and 'am thinking a buying the third one.

Works very well with Windows XP with good interface (no gimmicks) for HTPC applicaiton. I project it on 2.7m wide screen and it looks very good.

 

[Rob.Screene]

Thanks Branxx, any idea of my requirements 3 thru 5 from your experience?

cheers,
Rob.

 

[rhinoman]

You can install the Nebual digi tv app on a seperate machine to the one with the card and then stream across the network but the last time I tried it it was a little flakey (but it was a while ago so it may? have improved).

I believe that the nebula can now output a format suitable for dvd archiving.

 

[Rob.Screene]

Thanks John, I did a small search and the DVD writing sounds a little suspect still?

Ref: Nebula bugs discussion http://forums.sudhian.com/messageview.aspx?catid=51&threadid=70057&enterthread=y

Ref: v.3.128 http://forums.sudhian.com/messageview.aspx?catid=51&threadid=70057&enterthread=y

Rob.

 

[Rob.Screene]

The network slient/server implementation sure sounds impressive though.
Ref: http://www.nebula-electronics.com/support/help/settings/10.htm

It implies I might even be able to watch TV in my 802.11b laptop!
cheers,
Rob.

 

[rhinoman]

I used 3.1.3 last time I tried and the client server was real hit and miss.

I think streaming using 802.11b is unlily 802.11g possible, although it depends what your signal strength is like.

 

[Rob.Screene]

Thanks John.
Even without the client/server, do you know if any software players like TheaterTek2 will play the recorded files?

Are they .ts transport streams?
I saw the option under preferences for it to record the whole stream or just keep the particular program pid's, but didn't see any more detail.

regards,
Rob.

 

[Mr.D]

TT 2.06 plays nebula recording fine...with one caveat

I suspect that the occasional flakey recording is down to the broadcasters messing with the datastream and pushing it out of spec. Channel 5 had some problems recently and ITV has had some flakiness in the past.

The nebula is a great piece of kit though. I'd love them to provide a hook into ffdshow and maybe deinterlacing a la Dscaler but the digiTV software is actually not to bad comparatively for live viewing. The deinterlacing that is available is sensible (weave , average and bob) and they have a pulldown generator for non 50Hz refresh rates that does seem to be a benefit.

And remember you get umpteen radio stations you can also record and the new broadcast EPG actually seems accurate most of the time.

Even the remote works!

You can record entire multiplex streams ( I don't bother myself) and with the later versions of the software you can record direct to a dvd type mpg format (previously you had to run it through a secondary tool ...only a few minutes for a couple of hours worth of footage though)

 

[Rob.Screene]

Thanks Keith,
Do you mean run it through a DVD authoring tool, like TMPGEnc Author or the Spruce-up trial?

Is it easy to edit to remove adverts? Do I assume HDTV2MPEG2 would edit these .TS streams, even though they are standard def?

Any chance of a few test freeview clips please guys? I can pm you my ftp details.

cheers,
Rob.

 

[Mr.D]

DigiTV ( the nebula app) previously only captured the raw bitstream which was not in a dvd type format. Subsequently the incorporated a tool to convert to a dvd formta in the app itself and the more recent versions have the option of recording direct to a dvd authoring compatable format which alos has the advantage of being playable in just about every playback software going.

Its as editable as any ripped dvd I imagine.

 

[groovyclam]

That is correct - the current version of the Nebula software has user-settings to record either:

a) The entire mux transport stream
b) Just one channel transport stream

and this can be recorded in either:

1) Raw transport stream format
2) DVD-compatible MPEG2 file format

The MPEG2 format recording of a single channel can be loaded into any MPEG2 editor for chopping and cutting and burnt to a DVD via any decent DVD-authoring software.

I've not experienced any problems with any of the file formats with current software.

Any problems you may experience with output files are if channels are broadcasting non-standard 702x576 PAL resolution, or with non-MPEG2 standard GOPs and that is nothing to do with Nebula. I heard ITV2 or ITV3 was broadcasting at a lower res ( not sure if this was/still is true ) and Five had a naughty GOP until Ofcom stomped on them - those bad files will still playback in DigiTV but other packages may have issues with playback/burning.

I have issues with the design and layout and some quirks of the DigiTV GUI but no problems with the output files.

There is a new unofficial Nebula card user-form at http://www.digitv-forum.co.uk/
which is a useful place to visit for info.

 

[Rob.Screene]

Thanks guys.

Typically what datarate are stripped simgle program mpg's working out at recently then?

Rob.

 

[groovyclam]

Filesizes average at about 900 Meg for half hour of TV and 50 Meg for half hour of radio ( DVD format, single channel )

 

[Rob.Screene]

Wow,
I work that bitrate out at about about 2.5 hours to fit on to a DVDR or 4.6 hours on a dual-layer DVDR.

My young daughter will be happy with plenty of maisy and boogie beebies then! And my TIVO would be gld of me being able to delete much saved children's programs!

Do DVD recordings handle the widescreen switching properly?

Thanks and regards,
Rob.

 

[groovyclam]

Do DVD recordings handle the widescreen switching properly

For playback of the recorded files outside of DigiTV itself ( i.e. with TheatreTek, ZoomPlayer or MS Media Player ) you will need a decent MPEG2 decoder installed that handles aspect ratio change on the fly ( i.e. a file of 16:9 adverts, followed by a 4:3 TV program ) - currently only the new NVIDIA DVD Decoder (paid for) and the DScaler5 decoder (free) do this.

If you mean after you have written them to disk - I am not sure.

I have not written a changing aspect ratio file to DVD. I think ( but am not sure ) that a DVD disk itself can only specify one aspect ratio so you may have to manually override the aspect if it changes partway through. Someone may correct me here.

 

[Rob.Screene]

Thanks.
I have bought TheaterTek2, and that comes with the Nvidia decoders, so I guess I'm ok there.

I hear what you are saying about the .IFO flagging of the whole DVD. I think it's per title btw.

I'd have thought that after removing adverts the program material would be all the same aspect anyway.

I've very kindly been given some test clips to try, but am out tonight and have a busy morning, so it might not be till Wed night that I can try them on the HTPC.

cheers,
Rob.

 

[Mr.D]

Could be wrong but the last time I wqas watching freeview everything seemed to be 16x9 with the exception of a couple of the news channels.

If not the digiTV app certainly never requires you to change the aspect ratio whilst watching live (another plus if you run it into a plasma) so I assume its either all 16x9 or the app is switching seemlessly. If so maybe its recording the flag as the single flag only applies to red book ( or whatever book it is for dvd) conformed dvds. Put it this way it can record closed captions and subtitles so I don't see wy it would chuck the aspect flag unless it knackers getting the recordings into a dvd mpeg2 format.

 

[groovyclam]

The Nebula most cetainly *does* encode the aspect ratio change into the file at the exact moment it changes.

BBC channels broadcast all 4:3 stuff on FreeView padded with vertical bars to 16:9 so all BBC channels have the aspect flag broadcast at 16:9 all the time.

The other FreeView channels broadcast the appropriate aspect ratio flag at the appropriate times.

The Nebula software has settings to tell it what aspect your playback screen is and it works out the correct way of displaying live TV from the apsect flag and your screen.

If you playback recorded files outside of the Nebula software then, as I said above, you will need either the new NVIDIA 1.00.67 codec or DScaler5 codec to handle aspect ratio change on the fly correctly.

 

[Rob.Screene]

I've been kindly given some clips recorded in DVD authoring compatible mode.

I have Dscaler5 alpha installed, but didn't even try it as it doesn't do video deinterlacing yet.

TheaterTek2 plays them badly with juddering and broken-up audio. I am really happy with the way the X-card and holo3d faroudja card play them though.

I've never seen telly programs so clean and well deinterlaced, well except on
cj's Sky+/SDI to Crystalio scaler and Runco DLP which looked equally good.


It's definitely worth having just to play back previous timeshifted recordings in this way, perhaps without even installing the nebula client on the HTPC. I haven't bothered with a surround sound system for the lounge telly as I've got young kids, let alone anything like the Tag's Dolby Prologic 2 and lots of power amps that live in the HC room.

I tried to load the .mpg files in to the Spruce-Up trial DVD authoring program and it wouldn't import.

From the audio skipping, I suspected the way the mpeg was multiplexed, so I de-multiplexed them with TMPGenc, but it wouldn't then multiplex the resulting .mpv and .mp2 files back, complaining of Not Invalid for the .m2v???

I guess that's a question for the nebula forums once I've bought one, which I'll do once I finish some studying I'm doing or get a new contract.
thanks,
Rob.

 

[groovyclam]

I think you might need a better/different directshow demuxer than the one TheatreTek uses.

Find and install the Elecard decoder trial. It will give you 30 days of use. The Elecard DVD decoder it installs is irrelevant for your needs but it also installs an Elecard demultiplexer. Happily the Elecard demultiplexer doesn't expire after the trial runs out.

You will probably have to tinker with TheatreTek and/or priorities in DirectShow to get it to specifically use the Elecard demultiplexer instead of the less accomplished MS one. ( Or better yet, junk TheatreTek and use ZoomPlayer - far more configurable )

I use a combo of Elecard demux and NVIDIA dvd decoders and get great results with Nebula DVD format files.

I have Dscaler5 alpha installed, but didn't even try it as it doesn't do video deinterlacing yet.

Oh yes it does! Open up it's property page and you can choose how you want it to deinterlace - always weave, always bob or auto. I set if to always bob. True, it doesn't have a big choice of deinterlacing methods yet, but it does a pretty good even in its current form.

 

[Mark Ward]

My young daughter will be happy with plenty of maisy and boogie beebies then! And my TIVO would be gld of me being able to delete much saved children's programs!

Sorry to go off topic a little here but if you have a network card in your TiVo you can transfer the TV shows to DVD from the TiVo using TyTools. It's not that easy to set up but once installed is relatively straight forward. Not quite as good PQ as Nebula, but perfectly respectable and if you have Sky you'll have a whole lot more channels to choose from.

Mark.

 

[Mr.D]

TT2 plays nebula dvd format recordings just fine for me.
The only problem arises when you get the broadcaster messing up the bitstream. (ITV and 5 mainly)

I've got a nice recording of The Others from the beeb that plays fine , Pitch black from channel 4 which was originally recorded as the raw bitstream and then reformated with pginstrumeto (I think) and an episode "what we don't know" . All are fine . Its only when you deal with channel 5 and ITV that you might hit problems in which case the recording is usually still playable in the digiTV app.

 

[Mr.D]

I set if to always bob. True, it doesn't have a big choice of deinterlacing methods yet, but it does a pretty good even in its current form.

Thats a waste if you are watching film originated material , weave would be better unless it can't handle 3:2 pulldown correctly.

 

[hoyin]

Got some queries regarding the settings tab for Nebula.

I have been playing around with it to see if I can get the best PQ.

In the Deinterlace method if you select none does your picture appear all jagged?

and if you select Bob any still graphics seem to jump around.

I find Bob best for sports and Line average good enough for still or slower moving images.

Is this is the same PQ that all of you users are getting using these settings?