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FREESAT RECEPTION PROBLEM(Full strength signal)

charles

Established Member
I have a Panasonic Freesat TV and a Panasonic Free Sat Blu Ray Recorder.They are both showing a full strength signal.What has been happening recently is that for a split second the picture has been breaking up(especially on ITV) about every 5/10 minutes.On ITV HD last Friday the recording of Ginos Italian was unwatchable with picture and sound break up along with various colour variations.Is it possible that either corrosion or moisture is getting into the LNB or the LNB itself actually failing since for 7 years the Freesat has performed 100%.As the TV and the recorder exhibit the same issue I have discounted a problem at the receivers connections.
 

davemurgatroyd2

Distinguished Member

charles

Established Member
Thank you.A really helpful reply.Having looked where you suggested it seems that I have my answer so will do a re set this evening..
 

BlowinMyTop

Novice Member
URGENT UPDATE ON THIS ISSUE..

- You need to claim damages from your retailer in court..


On Monday 19th June 2017, I was at Preston County Court with "BUY IT DIRECT LTD" "DirectTVs" over this very same issue and won my case and was paid compensation for purchasing a "TV unfit for purpose".

If you have a Panasonic (or SONY) FreeSat receiver that cannot decode properly ITV HD then you also have a claim that the equipment was "unfit for the purpose" you purchased it for.

Panasonic's continued denial and blame of ITV and FreeSat is false and misleading. Even on their own website, they claim that your equipment is too old and you should watch the Standard Definition channel instead. I have requested Trading Standards to look into this false claim on their website to have it removed or amended to advise the actual truth.

Due to the age of this equipment you are running out of time, if not already, as to take to court your claim has to be made within 6 years of purchase. If you have contacted your retailer or Panasonic when the issue occurred, you may be able to ask the court to take the date you made contact as the "in contract" date for your claim as at the time, you were unaware that the actual fault was with Panasonic and you did make contact in regards to the issue.

My claim was back dated to the date I contact the retailer regarding my TV and not the 6 years after purchase. As long as you can prove you made contact then you should still be able to claim.

The Real Issue:

Any HD Satellite equipment unable to decode ITV HD correctly and claiming that it complies to the DVB-S2 Standard is inherently faulty in that the equipment failed to meet the Standard as claimed and this is your grounds for the claim.

DVB-S2 was published back in 2005 and accepted Globally as the TV Standard for HD generation of Satellite reception. Panasonic are wrongly claiming that as "no broadcaster was using the parameters of ITV HD at the time of purchase, then they cannot be held responsible". This is absolute rubbish as Panasonic in order to claim the DVB-S2 compliance had to confirm that any equipment met the standards meaning whatever parameters a broadcaster use then the equipment should work.

The fact that ITV HD using 8PSK and FEC3/4 is within scope of the Standards and therefore the equipment does not comply and did not do so at the time you purchased it. As you (the customer) had no way to test at the time, only when ITV switched transmission format did it become apparent that there was a flaw.

What you need to to start a claim:

Do not write to your retailer if you are getting close to the 6 years since purchase, start your court claim on moneyclaim.gov.uk immediately and if you are beyond 6 years contact Consumer Direct on 0345 4040506 and take advice, especially if you have proof that you either informed your retailer or contacted Panasonic within 6 year of purchase as Panasonic have not been honest about this issue and led you a lie to put you off claiming.

1) Obtain of find your original purchase receipt - or copy of the 5 yr guarantee if it had one, Credit Card statement or Bank statement to prove purchase date if original receipt lost.

2) Find a copy of your equipment's manual paper on or Panasonic's website and check the Specifications. You should see DVB-S2 and a list of formats (8PSK and FEC3/4) will be in this list. You will need this later for court.

3) Start your moneyclaim claim on the courts website - TV cost £649, I claimed £200, was paid £125 compensation plus costs as a guide.


Evidence for court:

Based on my claim I took the following evidence with me

1) A copy of the TV manual clearly stating the DVB-S2 Standard

2) A copy of the DVB-S2 Standard itself - 50 pages
-- ETSI Standards - DVB-S2

3) A screenshot or copy of the article on JoinFreeSat
-- Panasonic ITV HD break-up issues on Panasonic TVs and PVRs | Join Freesat

Having a copy of this article was crucial and having this 100% convinced the judge of my case and saved me a lot of explaining as it was straight and to the point.

4) If you have other HD Satellite equipment - Take copies of the Specification of these also.

5) Take a photo (or video) of the equipment tuned into ITV HD with the channel info page showing from TV menu to show frequency and channel settings.

6) If you have other HD Satellite equipment, take a photo again on ITV HD to show it working.

7) Contact ITV Customer services and ask them to confirm in writing that they are complying with OFCOM ruling and transmitting to the DVB-S2 Standard as licensed.
-- [email protected]


8) Any previous correspondence with your retailer or Panasonic that responds to the issue when it was highlighted. It is not necessary if not available.

9) A copy or screenshot of Panasonic's' misleading response from their website FAQ
-- Why am I experiencing picture issues on ITV HD channels? - Panasonic Corporation

When you get to court:

My hearing lasted 15 minutes, I explained to the judge that all broadcasters in the UK have a legal duty to comply in transmission to the ETSI DVB-S2 Standards (produce the copy of the Standard) and that ITV HD is being transmitted to this DVB-S2 Standard (produce ITV response letter or email) and that the equipment claims to be in compliance to DVB-S2 Standard (produce copy of the manual) but it is clearly not in compliance as the equipment cannot decode the ITV HD channel.

To round up, then produce the article on "Join Free Sat" which clearly states:

Legally, and in ITV’s defense, the Panasonic equipment affected should conform to the DVB-S/S2 specification and whilst 8PSK modulation was not in use when the sets were designed, they should be able to handle and receive this mode of transmission meaning this issue has been inherent since original manufacture. Our reader who’s escalated this high up within Panasonic reports after a conversation yesterday that they don’t plan on doing anything to resolve the issue although legally and under the Sale of Goods Act it does give grounds for claim as such under consumer law a product with an inherent issue “within a reasonable timeframe” should be dealt with by the manufacturer.

You will be asked why you have left it so long to claim, you should tell the court it only became apparent there was an issue with the equipment after December 2015 when ITV HD changed transmission and since then Panasonic have claimed that your equipment is too old to receive the "current Standard". You have since learned this was a false claim as the TV should be capable of receiving (as claimed) all DVB-S2 formats as transmitted today as 8PSK, FEC3/4 is clearly documented within the Standards.

You must also insist that this fault was within the equipment since the day it was purchased (unfit for purpose) and this did not happen due to a fault at a later date as this will affect your compensation value.

Why you should claim:

It is a disgrace that Panasonic have treated it's customers with arrogance and contempt on this issue in refusing to admit the issue lies with them and instead continue to blame ITV for choosing parameters that their equipment seems not to be built to decode.

Instead of being honest, they are stalling on the issue knowing the longer time they can "buy", the less likely claims will be made due to legal time limits of 6 years.

They know full well the issue is they produced equipment not complying to the Standards they claim and are refusing to remedy the situation. The fault appears to be hardware meaning it is likely the equipment can never be fixed and Panasonic want to avoid the cost of replacing TV to make good this situation.

I will NEVER purchase another Panasonic product again due to the arrogance on the phone when I first contacted them about this issue. They have a duty to hold their hands up and put this right.

They put the DVB and FREESAT HD Logo's on your equipment and in doing were making false claims as to the condition of the equipment and for over a year had blamed ITV while treating customers with contempt and hence they deserve Justice.

BBC Watchdog

I have made the BBC Watchdog Programme aware of this issue, please report yours via the website in order to generate interest and publicity on this issue.

Watchdog - Send your story to Watchdog - BBC One

PM me if you require further details or evidence, I have a a copy of an ITV email I am happy for you to use. It may also be useful for your case to refer to mine, contact me for details of the hearing for reference.

GOOD LUCK !!
 
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TJT1

Distinguished Member
As your court case seems to be a precedent, it would be good if you would give your court details (by PM for privacy) to others who are thinking of claiming so that they can also quote this in court.
 

BlowinMyTop

Novice Member
Hello

I am happy to give further details and have amended the post above with more information and where to obtain it. I would recommend using my case as a reference in any further claim so please anyone, feel free to contact me if you are pursuing a claim.
 
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logiciel

Moderator
Rule 8
 

pedro2000uk

Distinguished Member
DVB-S2 has presented the industry with a lot of problems across the world. They designed it to be better, more efficient/ more flexible etc.. but then realised in tests that it needed a bigger dish/ better tuners etc...
In the UK & across Europe & the Middle East we have seen broadcasters/ engineers having to rethink the way DVB-S2 is used with 8PSK & the FECs used & in particular, here in the UK where there are millions of smaller (sky) dishes pushing it to it's limits, with it's early use & promised savings (using the same or higher FECs), resulting in many complaining the HD would go off in X amount of rain but the SD stayed on.

If you look round the satellite arc now & what's taken place bodging engineering wise re dvb-s2, you'll see all sorts of combinations of DVB-S DVB-S2 QPSK 8PSK FECs of 3/4 5/6 even 9/10 to get the most out of a given bandwidth & EIRP, still maintaining an acceptable reception before break up. ITV basically pushed it a bit further, but not before other improvements on the tx side.

All those broadcast companies have had to deal with the engineering problems & used various solutions, although it's resulted in a bit of a mess to be frank with you constantly having to study the known tenacity of certain combinations of the above & then try to apply it to the footprint EIRP, which are sometimes about as accurate as mobile phone coverage maps.

Certainly Panasonic & Sony seemed to be the only 2** companies with this issue on the reception end & should have done far more & especially as they are/were expensive brands & even the cheapest of HD satellite receivers have not had issues reported, **but I have seen what looks like the same problem on Spider boxes & presumably the original M-Vision it was based on .... & the M-Vision was one of the earliest HD satellite receivers.

The one I worked on recently was connected to a 1m [motorised of course] Channel Master dish to a Spiderbox, it mainly exhibited signs of overload on the MVision's early hd tuner with that size dish & a more powerful lnb & there are work-a-rounds, but unfortunately, I only got told in passing after I left, that he thought it also had the ITVHD issue or I would have focused on that (& don't know if it was a false assumption either). I did say it might be an idea to upgrade to a newer receiver, but the M-Vision & Spiderboxes were quality otherwise.
 
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BlowinMyTop

Novice Member
42 inch G20 Viera Plasma

I don't accept any issue with the LNB as all other HD and SD channels are full signal with zero errors.

The issue is the same on the 1 metre dish I have for 19.2 and Hotbird. The Quad is on an oversized Sky Dish for my area on the same pole and as all other equipment shows no errors, it is the TV.

The same LNB feed is from a Quad LNB and the one feeding the Panasonic has been used and tested on.:

HUMAX FOXSat
SkyBox S3
Goodmans PVR
ALDI FreeSat FreeView caravan TV

These can also receive with the 3x LNBs from 2x dishes connected via DeSeq switching, again without issue.

All work flawlessly showing excellent signal and all purchased in 2011/ 2012.

Panasonic should have acknowledged and resolved the issue and not led customers along claiming not their problem.
 
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logiciel

Moderator
OP posted three more times in two threads.
 

BlowinMyTop

Novice Member
With respect..

All the threads I have posted on are Panasonic users with issues that are conversant to the receiver not complying to DVB-S2.

Therefore the issue and cause is almost certainly the same and all users reporting it in their individual requests should be informed as to my court hearing in order they too can obtain justice for Panasonic's failure.

It is not spam in anyway, it is a genuine response to posts suggesting Panasonic equipment is failing on 119 ITV HD.

This issue is the same, the resolution is the same it is only that different users have asked and with a reply I am sure they will be notified by email there is a response to the original question.

Also, I am certain Google will bring others here with the issue as was the original case with myself and hopefully quickly find what they can do to be compensated.

They have all reporting the same issie..
 

TJT1

Distinguished Member
Notwithstanding Rule 11 again. Rule 8 says not to start more than one thread, it doesn't mention posting in more than one thread. Although I must agree that asking the same question in more than one thread is bad form, BMT's posts were not questions trying to elicit answers but informative posts that make me feel smug that I bought Samsung.:)
 

logiciel

Moderator
I think that posting in one thread here was enough.
As one who almost never watches ITV HD or SD and also has a Samsung I can't comment further.:)
 

pedro2000uk

Distinguished Member
42 inch G20 Viera Plasma

I don't accept any issue with the LNB as all other HD and SD channels are full signal with zero errors.

The issue is the same on the 1 metre dish I have for 19.2 and Hotbird.

.


Do you mean the Panasonic TV connected to 19.2e has the same problems on channels/ tps on DVB-S2 8PSK 3/4 with mid range symbol rates?
 

BlowinMyTop

Novice Member
Hi

Sorry, I should have been clearer..

We have a Sky (squashed) dish with a Quad LNB feeding the TV, 2x feeds for Humax and 4th running up to the SkyBox in the bedroom.

Not tried other 3/4 HD channels on the TV.

We are in Lancashire and as I was putting a Quad LNB put the Scottish size of dish to ensure good signal. Actual size escapes me at the moment.

We also have a 1m dish with two angled LNB holders with two Quad outputs on each one pointing 19.2 and the other on hotbird as I listen to European radio a fair bit.

While on the pole checking the alignment of the Sky dish I pushed the 1m over to 28 degtees and fed this directly into the TV to see if better signal would cure the ITV HD issue and it had no effect.

The TV is directly fed from the Sky dish as there is no DiSeq support and the Humax and Skybox S3 as they do support DiSeq are fed 3x LNBs via a switcher which allow 3x satellites to be watched between them.

All other equipment connected via DiSeq switching and all work flawlessly on ITV HD with 95 to 100% no errors (depending which box you look at) meaning the issue is within the Panasonic.

Panasonic shows 10 of of 10 for signal on every channel even in rain and snow.

This is what convinced me to make the successful claim. Panasonic's defence they gave to the retailer was a joke claiming that as the TV was built to DVB-S1/S2 and since then DVB Standards DVB-3/4 had been released and therefore neither they nor the retailer was responsible to support these later 'Standards'.

Can you find a DVB-S3 or DVB-S4 Standards on dvb.org ot ETSI websites because I can't? Retailer assured me that given the "robust defence" they had been given by Panasonic that I would loose my claim and be subject to costs plus the legal advice they'd been given to back ip there claim.

I'll scan their defece and post it later.

How wrong they were.. my opening statement of TV claiming DVB-S2 and ITV confirmation of transmission and no other Standard exists for HD blew them out the water, in fact the retailer never even offered to use it in court as it was completely false.
 
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logiciel

Moderator
It's well known that old Panasonics have a problem with this one channel.
Why they would not accept this and pay up is a mystery.

No, there are two identical deleted posts in another thread.
It should be easy enough to trace this thread.
 

pedro2000uk

Distinguished Member
..

No, there are two identical deleted posts in another thread.
It should be easy enough to trace this thread.

Notwithstanding rule 11 .. if it had been me I'd have deleted the body of the text & put a link to here for anyone else

does putting notwithstanding mean jack
 

logiciel

Moderator
Any reason for that double post?
 

TJT1

Distinguished Member
Just to annoy you logi.:rotfl:
You can't beat a duplicate post or three.
 

pedro2000uk

Distinguished Member
..


Not tried other 3/4 HD channels on the TV.

.

Shame, but I'm pretty sure you'd get the same result & that would have added to it that it's not something funny ITV have done apart from pushing it more than others [on 28e]-

Arte HD on 19.2e & 13e using DVB-S2/8PSK with an fec of 5/6 very early on highlighted some of the problems with DVB-S2, saving potentially half the carriage fees, but also potentially losing or upsetting half their audience as even with an EIRP of 50dBW+ across most of Europe, it broke up on <65cm dishes & showed up some poorly installed larger dishes.

In the UK one more thing that changed because of DVB-S2 issues was that the zone 1 sky dish was increased in size to help the DVB-S2 reception issues from 40-45cm to 50cm ... zone 2 sky dishes are 64cm on the area measure - (the default measuring method for sky dishes not altered by resellers) ... width + height of the reflector / 2]

My interest is more the technical side & the nuts & bolts of why this has happened & if there is any 'fix'- Dave did some very thorough tests, I'm just annoyed I might have had the chance to work on what might have been the same fault as on installations, you don't come across that many Panas with Freesat to do tests, you'd probably have to buy a used one off ebay.
 

BlowinMyTop

Novice Member
I wasn't aware I'd posted twice as browser had logged me out and when clicked post reply it asked for log in again..

Either way, it was not intended although I did intend to reply to each mention of the issue in each thread to ensure it's seen.

I'm new here and this was the sole reason for joining.
 

logiciel

Moderator
No problem as it's deleted now.
Welcome to the forum.
 

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