Free beer for everyone

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by Member 96948, Apr 29, 2007.

  1. AngelEyes

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    Phil,

    If they go ahead I am very happy to offer my humble 'mark one ears' at both, although I feel my own sub being unavailable in the UK is superfluous at such precedings.

    Your choice of Audyssey while ideal for speed, convenience and continuity (assuming you intend a single identicle placement for each sub) seems to remove the posibility of obtaining far more useful (for the average punter) data on placement and manual EQ. Obviously this data would be true only for the room in question but may offer valauble hints to forumites with similiar rooms.

    e.g. Sub A performed better in a corner, while Sub B was better half way along the wall etc.

    Most people don't even understand the merits of placement let alone EQ although more enquire about it all the time. This 'review' should IMO give as much useful information as possible to the other forum members.

    The Audyssey will (I assume) show each sub performing at it's optimum regardless of the room size or positioning. While this is nice to know, it is probably unobtainable for most people, especially if we are going to be looking at small/medium subs for the average budget.

    Perhaps my ideas are unworkable as it will take a while to manually position and EQ each sub. :confused:

    Time and the availability of a consistent testing environment would seem to work against my wishes :rolleyes:

    Adam
     
  2. Timbo21

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    I think manually eqing various subs does not lead to continuity.

    Any two people may approach the eq differently. You may arrive at similar curves, but it will sound different. Even the same person eqing their sub for a second time will no doubt arrive at something different if the eq is then set to flat & they have no notes or memory of their initial eq settings.

    If Audyssey generally arrives at more or less the same results after repeating the setup (for the same sub), then it may be deemed as giving the most consistent results in order to continue testing with other subs.

    T.
     
  3. Nimby

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    Can I throw in a spoiler?

    Is EQ-ing their subs really something that owners of small or midpriced subs usually do?

    Isn't EQ-ing something that the keener members do after investing in the bigger stuff?

    Those who invest a lot of time (and possibly lots of money) in their system may feel that they should get maximum value from their subs. So they equalise.

    Those with more modest AV budgets probably feel that investing in a BFD is money better spent on an upgrade elsewhere.

    In a real world situation shouldn't the subs just be placed in exactly the same spot in the test room and listened to in company with modestly priced speakers, AVR and CD/DVDP?

    Alternatively, since subwoofers are more subject to room effects it might be an idea to rehearse the test. Just to find optimum room positions for particular subs. (making notes to ensure correct placement later of course) Sub and seat positioning is something that many owners might try (probably while their partners are out!) so is valid at this level of investment and interest.

    I really think equalisation should be avoided. As should high end equipment for the purposes of this first small subwoofer test. I don't think it would happen in most systems employing most of these small subs. The SMS-1 itself is more expensive than most of these subs. REW/BFD is a pretty steep learning curve for somebody who just wants to watch films. It doesn't make these sub owners any less worthy or less interesting. (Just more normal) ;)

    A more technical (objective/subjective) test with equalisation could be run later using the appropriate facilities to maximise and test each sub's potential performance. (if desired)
     
  4. EriX

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    Nimby:

    Sorry to butt in, I've been following this thread with interest as I could have done with the information that Russ is planning to produce a few weeks ago when I was deciding which sub to buy. But didn't he say that he is planning on presenting both an eq'd and un-eq'd graph?

    I'd agree that a bfd is a lot to spend for some people. The monolith I plumped for in the end was already stretching my budget and I can't see myself being able to justify a bfd for quite a while.

    If you were talking about Phil's suggestions please ignore this!! I certainly agree that un-eq'd responses would be useful to see.

    Eric
     
  5. AngelEyes

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    I think Nimby has made the point I was slowly bumbling towards :blush:

    If we are to learn anything from these subs then lets keep it as close to 'real-life' as possible. I probably clung onto the issue of using EQ at all just because I can, but I think the results would be much more useful if we left it out of the equation (at least for the smaller subs) and rely on positioning.

    However those subs that include onboard EQ...? As a feature of the sub itelf shouldn't we utilise these features? I seem to be contradicting myself a bit this morning :D
     
  6. Nimby

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    Eric

    Never be afraid to question anything you see on here or any other forum. Particularly anything posted by me. I am never afraid to learn something new and often deliberately post questions on forums to get clearer answers than those I feel safe to pass onto others. Just because I rabbit on more than most other people (apart from Russell) doesn't mean the contents of my posts hold any greater truth than any other member's posts. If you see a flaw in the information contained in a post or a faulty opinion then jump right in and put matters right. (Politely of course) :)

    If a sub has onboard EQ then I think it is perfectly valid to use it in this test.
     
  7. Timbo21

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    Yes, if the room doesn't have too many anomalies, it would be really intersting to see what sort of response each sub came out with (without eq).
     
  8. Neil Davidson

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    Hi Guys,

    I have also been watching the thread with interest and notice that it seems to be splitting in to a number of tracks...

    1. The idea of an informal gathering of people to listen to a number of subs.
    2. A more formal gathering of people to listen to a number of subs.
    3. The idea of producing more formal reviews based on extended listening of a number of subs by 1 or two people.

    I think the whole EQ or not EQ argument is going off on a tangent. Regardless of how the "review" is conducted the products deserve to be properly placed in room and all on board controls used to obtain best response. If response is determined by REW or using an RTA or whatever is in fact irrelevant.

    It is important to use all available options on the unit as they are performance differentiators chosen by the manufacturer. A simple example would be a sub with variable phase compared to one with just switchable phase.

    It is clear that even in the same room there will be an amount of time that must be spent switching between subs and redoing the setup otherwise the comparison is unfair.

    I also don't see the point of limiting this to "small" or "cheap" subs. I wouldn't call a Monolith small for example!!!

    What I do see a need for is to open up the discussion on this forum to encompass other brands than SVS or BK. These companies make decent products at a decent price but they are far from being the last word in performance which is the impression a novice could easily be given reading the forums as they stand.

    Companies like REL, Genelec, Velodyne and many others make great products that deserve to be heard and understood. There is a great opportunity here to use the lure of AV Forums to get these companies to supply products for review that should hopefully make the discussion more interesting and the advice given more relevant for all customers.

    At the same time it must be understood that there are large and complex logistical obstacles to be addressed to make this a reality. For a start is it possible to get a setup where more than four people can listen at any time? I think it would be great if people could listen to one sub then move on to another but that means multiple rooms in the same place. That more importantly means time and money spent on organisation.

    The other option of having two or three dedicated souls reviewing the units on a one in one out basis does not appeal to me. How can the review be compred to another review - one man's meat could be another man's poison!!! How do you know the setup was done properly etc etc etc. This does nothing to dispel the incorrect but still widely held belief that the sub forum and some of it's participants, here at AVF has been bought and paid for.

    It really calls for a weekend in a place where a number of listening rooms can be setup for people to enjoy and experience while the memory of each sub listened to can be recalled by each individual. This then becomes something very interesting but also veers close to being an AV Forums show....

    Just my 2p.

    Neil
     
  9. Morb

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    As i said earlier listen to the sub without any EQ then again once it has been done. This lets you see how the subs act naturally in room and then shows the merits of EQing. ;)
     
  10. AngelEyes

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    I couldn't agree more, having bought into the hype myself a few years back I really want to see what else is out there.

    Out of interest, how many subs do you think you can setup well in one 'average sized lounge' room?

    I am thinking if you can pick 3 or so from any one sub 'classification' and set them up so it is relatively easy to switch between them, that would be a great way to review/audition the subs. The question is how many can be set up like this at any one time?

    Adam
     
  11. Stuart Wright

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    Our only agenda would be to ensure that all the subwoofers from all the manufacturers get an equal opportunity to shine.
    Those people who think there is any brand bias on the AVForums just don't get it.
    I wouldn't blame the likes of REL calling our forum biassed. But it's not the forum which is biassed, it's the members posting in it. Most people in the AVForums subwoofers forum seem to be BK and SVS fanboys. Now it doesn't help matters that BK and AVSales (SVS distributors) are advertisers. But I would love to see forum advertising from the likes of REL, Velodyne, Monitor Audio and all the rest. Just as I would like to see owners of those subs talking about the brands a bit more.

    AVForums has an opportunity here to produce some top notch 100% independent and fair reviews. We'd be galactically stupid to screw that up with some dodgy reviews. I mean what would the advantages be? They couldn't be huge or long lasting whatever they were. Whereas producing 100% respected reviews would gain us both huge and long lasting respect and traffic.
     
  12. Stuart Wright

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    If by this you mean 'is there a smaller or more limited array of subwoofers to be tested, or a limit on the openness of the reviews or a limit on who says what'?, then I can categorically say absolutely not.
    Hopefully the reverse.
    I would be totally happy letting you and other forum members arrange this to be as totally transparent as possible. You choose the subwoofers, you ratify the testing methods. You run it, if you like.
    We can help by asking manufacturers for loan of kit (although they may still say no). We can host (although there is limited space in the AVF home cinema).
    We can promote the reviews via our newsletters, home page etc.
    With respect to you experts out there who know more about subs than me, if some members have reviewed kit then it's a review by a bunch of AVForums members. If it's an official AVForums review then I would hope that it would carry just a bit more weight. (That's assuming that people respect our reviews - but that's our goal).

    My only stipulation would be that it is unbiassed and performed and presented professionally. I would hope that would be everyone's aim.
     
  13. AngelEyes

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    Hi Stuart,

    Just to clarify my position, I don't think there is relationship between posts/comments and views on the AVforums and your advertisers. I have just heard enough other people mention it over the years to know that some people may (deliberately?) jump to the wrong conclusion and attempt to undermine the validity of the tests.

    Perhaps I was being overly pessimistic in this regard, and as no one else seems to think it is a problem, I will drop it.

    Adam
     
  14. recruit

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    This is a great opportunity chaps for the Sub Forum and with such Knowledgeable members Like Russ Will / Nimby / Eviljohn2 and Angeleyes to name a few these tests/reviews could help alot of AV folk out there and i for one am really grateful for you're input into this forum as you have helped me understand quite a bit more over the past few years and i am sure many others too, so i for one would love to see this work out right :thumbsup:
     
  15. eviljohn2

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    :blush: Thanks recruit, your cheque's in the mail! :D

    I'd hope to make an appearance at one or other of these events if people can tolerate me going on about how good professional equipment is compared to domestic stuff like I normally do. :)
     
  16. IronGiant

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    I also wonder whether that, as the forum moderators, Recruit and I shouldn't get directly involved in the actual event, even if it means missing out on the fun. Although as current owners of M&K and homemade subs respectively it would be hard to accuse us of bias to the forum favourites :D

    Dave
     
  17. AngelEyes

    AngelEyes
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    Recruit you silver tongued devil ;) , I feel a little out of place among such illustrious company *cough* :rolleyes: and in reality I am still a relative nooblet when it comes to understanding subwoofery :suicide:

    Personally I don't see the problem in having a few moderators along, if nothing else they can keep us on topic...erm sometimes anyway :D

    Besides I want to 'feel' the fridge... can we make MAC a compulsory test scene please!? :eek:

    Adam
     
  18. Badger0-0

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    I've only just come across this thread.
    I'd definitely go with the "get the sub and stick it there" for all of them.
    Then run the test (which should be a simple curve), as it comes, without Eq.
    After all, this is how most people buy them.
    They don't expect to have to mess about with them.
    Whatever, IMO, it should be done in a room that is as close to typical as possible, preferably recently built, because they're crap, what with wooden floors and plasterboard walls.

    I've practically been accused of being an SVS fanboy, but have pretty much tried to demonstrate that SVS are a POS when not Eq'd, in my house.

    Eq'd well, they rock :thumbsup:

    I reckon this sort of experiment would definitely show that smaller subs integrate better in a typical room, if you don't want to do any extra work.

    Also, keep the kit very simple.
    My suggestion would be £300 speaker setup, £300 amp, £100 CD player or even a £50 DVD player.
    Even better, a computer pumping out MP3s.

    Which, regardless of what some people might think, is much nearer the average, IMO.

    I'd say come and do it at mine, my room will suck the top end out of anything.
    But I doubt the gaffer would appreciate it :(
     
  19. AngelEyes

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    Got a problem with beer, fan-boy? :D
     
  20. Badger0-0

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    Damm yes, two hands, one mouth :(

    :rotfl:
     
  21. Helicon

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    Just a few observations if i may share them :)

    I pretty much agree witheverything ceenhad said.

    I totally agree, and a point i've been trying to make for a long time.

    The problem with listening to subs EQ'd and au naturel is that you'll double the testing/listening/setting up time. If this is happening over a few days it's not so much of a problem. But then it depends how many subs would eventually be involved. And for the best results, only one sub should be in the room at any one time. I'm sure the merits of EQ'ing has been covered many times on various threads, but i don't think that's the most important thing in this case. If there's enough time, maybe pick a few subs that didn't fare too well and give them the EQ treatment.

    I would assume this is because of the stick that REL have been getting and got recently. There are many happy REL owners on these forums, but they're shot down pretty quickly by the 'fanboys', as Stuart refers to them. This sort of thing can only have a negative effect on other sub fans joining in general everyday discussions about subs.

    I think people forget sometimes that although subs differ in performance, not everyone is after ultimate depth or power. For some people there's more to it than that. If people who give advice were a little more open to the needs of the OP's instead of just trying to recommend the biggest sub for their money, the sub forum would see a little more diversity.

    I hope this does go ahead. But i hope the findings are presented in way that the average person can understand as well as the tecchies.
     
  22. AngelEyes

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    The reason the sub forum can be seen as bias is that the fan-boys are also the largest contributors to the community. I am not sure what the scientific correlation is, maybe if you own a BK or SVS you have more time on your hands... I don't know, or this may due to the keen enthusiastic nature of the sort of people who own these 'value' brands, I could speculate forever. :D

    The bottom line is quite often the very people who are criticised as being bias fan-boys and perhaps putting off discussion of other brands, are among the most helpful and knowledgable on the forum. Without these windbags... I mean 'people' this forum would be a far less informative and entertaining place... kind of a catch22:suicide:

    I certainly hope these proposed tests create some lively debate and really hope we see a few suprises that generate some additional forum favourites :smashin:

    Adam
     
  23. IronGiant

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    The mods of this sub-forum are not, in any way, shape or form, fanboys of any manufacturer/shape/concept/plan. Neither of us own "a popular sub" so we are not biased :D

    I'll have to ask Recruit whether we are knowledgable :)

    We do have the job of keeping this on an even keel though...

    Dave
     
  24. Morb

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    Hopefully people aren't as biased as they may appear on forums, some might just be trying to justify the cost of their own purchase i guess.

    Personally i would love to hear different subs, aswell as anything else, as it broadens my experience and knowledge. I suspect and hope others feel the same.

    Anyway sort out the details and lets get this rolling, beer, subs and hopefully nice weather would make for a very nice weekend break. :clap:
     
  25. Nimby

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    You got me back to rights, Stuart, Sir. :oops:

    It has become obvious that I can no longer peddle my hidden agenda of pushing VFM subwoofers without blocking the REL fanboys. Who (apparently) can't get a word in edgeways because of my chronic abuse of this forum in repeatedly recommending REaL subwoofers. :rolleyes:

    I alone, am totally responsible for the lack of advertising by other "labels" on this forum. I readily admit it. I humbly beg the forgiveness of my fellow forum members and AV dealers everywhere. :blush:

    PS: It were that Richard Lord what made me do it! Honest, guv! :suicide:
     
  26. Timbo21

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    I find it hard to feel sorry for Rel here. Rel are so used to having it all their way generally aren't they?

    Rel certainly do well with the mags and in many Sevenoaks that's pretty much all you'll get offered (if you want the best ;) )

    It's a great contrast to come on here and get a very genuine alternative experience to what is being fed to us elsewhere. It was a real eye opener for me.

    I agree that not everyone is looking for a large monster sub with great low distortion LF output at a fair price (why not? :confused: ).

    There have always been great contenders from BK for the smaller sub market, and SVS have now answered that call also; so they're not all about Monster subs, but getting VFM for whatever sub you choose, big or small.

    No the 'fanboy' sub brands are not the last word in subwoofery, but perhaps are when it comes to 'bang for buck'. That is why they are so popular here.

    T.
     
  27. Member 96948

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    Excellent. I just wanted to be sure that the sudden upsurge in interest from the forums hierachy wasn't a result of us being perceived to be about to 'start treading on toes', etc.
    Your assurances as regards transparency are good enough for me. As regards running it, well it's clear that we're receiving more posts about discussing how the test should be run, as opposed to offers of subs. Therefore, it's unlikely to happen in any meaningful sense without AVRs support. I would defer to their expertise in running such a review. It would be of interest and I feel of benefit, if a limited number of regular forumites were involved. I can't see it being possible for more than four people to be present AND gain useful insight, without drastically effecting the time scale such a test would take. My room only has two sweet spots and I can't see any amount of room treatment/EQ much more than doubling that area.

    Again, agreed.

    One small request if I may. Please stop using the term 'fanboy'. It's an insulting term and does nothing to further discussion. The reason this thread was started, was precisely to put paid to the perceived bias the sub forum has, prevent finger pointing, widen the knowledge base within and dispel the need for the accusation 'fanboy' to be used. The term may have been used justly in the past, but I feel this thread isn't the place. FWIW, try suggesting MA aren't the last word in the speakers forum. That should redefine bias.

    Could I also appeal to the general members to avoid posting about the semantics of forum life and manufacturers woes. This is about doing a test, pure and simple. The results of the test, could open up that sort of debate, but not it's inception.

    Kind Regards,

    Russell

    Edit: Sorry about that last point Tim, it looks like it was aimed at you, but I started typing way before you posted. I'd have been quicker, but work gets in the way of important things like this.
     
  28. Timbo21

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    No worries :)

    The thread was wondering somewhat.
     
  29. recruit

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    Only sometimes :eek: :D
     
  30. recruit

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    I Agree and i don't like the term biased either and i think something like these type of tests should put closure to these lables !
     

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