Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by Member 96948, Apr 29, 2007.
Will a Stentor fit in hand luggage?
If you dismantle it...
It is a shame, as that's exactly the point - to bust a few myths. Or otherwise.
It's only four hours by car with your foot down y'know. By the time you've driven to the airport, parked, checked in, flown the bizarre route they run Edinburgh>Stansted, disembarked, collected luggage, got picked up, driven to Cambridge, it's way quicker to drive.
Edit: Ok it's more like six hours, but it'll feel shorter for a Scot knowing there's free booze at the other end.
Perhaps another event could be aranged nearer the North of the country, I'd be more than happy to take part. I would need a hand getting it's 60kg packed weight into and out of the car.
That would be my problem, except the Monolith is so heavy it wouldn't move around in my car, it'll just make the back end a little lairy
Definitely interested in "spectating" though if poss.
Russell, could I bring my Monolith along to one of these testing days so we can hear what 2 Monoliths sound like? I would be most intregued to know.
That is a nice idea DD, but perhaps one for another thread. Maybe one to test the oft stated claim about two Monoliths V one PB-12.
I can bring my DD-15 along no problem if there's not one on the cards (but it looks like there is ). Also don't mind hosting, and funnily enough I'm in Cambridge
If i can get access to the works van when your doing the bigger subs i would be able to bring my sub, although i wouldn't be able to find out 100% until i had a date. Also possible i could blag my old mans van or my brothers, and lets face a van is pretty much a must for the bigguns .
Cracking idea btw Russ, hopefully it will help us see a bigger picture when compared in conjuction with magazine/online tests.
So you considered trying out all the subs connected at once?
And for you nancys saying its to far to travel this is for the greater good of subwoofery, and don't forget the beer.
A 700 mile round trip is too far in my book, beer or no beer. Still maybe a Scottish subwoofer test could be arranged sometime in the future.
I know only jesting with you.
In actuality it would probably be of more benefit to have this test done in more than one room for even more information.
Thanks for all the offers chaps. I really want to test the little ones first.
I've been PMing people who've fessed up to the non-fanboy favourites, but if anybody else is able to blag a sub, such as the ones mentioned earlier, it'll save me walking into SSAV and asking if they'll let me bring some home on the strength of a credit card swipe. I don't expect that to work.
any idea when this is going to happen ??
what sort of results do you plan on publishing?
It would be interesting to hear other subs (and the same sub setup by someone else in a different room) as I've never been entirely happy with mine in my room for films whereas it sounds great for music. Most odd but I've haven't really had time (with a new baby) to actually watch many films recently so it could just be that I've never got used to it. Anyway I couldn't make it (and don't have an appropriate sub to contribute) that's that!
Couple of questions: What kind of EQ device are you using? What other items will be in the chain? What material will you use and how will you measure the results?
It's an interesting idea and something if done correctly could give some objective feedback as well as subjective opinions from those there.
Having a think about the idea, and certainly don't want to step on Russell's toes here, but what about doing these tests as an official AVForums event? We have the official AVF Cinema Room which has all the space and highend kit available, is located in the midlands, is a seperate building which has been acoustically treated. There is a guest house about 100 yards away with cheap beer and rooms. We also have access to a Rel Studio III and M&K 350 already, the pro version of the Audyssey EQ system and I am sure we could also get hold of some of the subs not usually mentioned on these forums such as the sunfires, maybe the new Rels and so on. Plus we might also be able to provide an independant expert who can produce the tests and measurements we would need.
Like I said, don't want to step on Russ toes, but theres an option for you and we could really do something constructive under the official banner of the forums, without getting into anal over the top measurements.
How would that sound?
That sounds like a plan... mainly cos it means not having to go near the A14 for me
I have had a quick chat with a local place and should be able to get an SPL-800R too, a date will be handy though, might even be able to bring along a Dynaudio SUB 300 if i sweet talk my usual shop (i think they have one..)
Though given size of my car and size of subwoofers i may have to be limited to one in the pax seat!!!
Obviously up to Russell, but that could be fantastic Phil. How many peeps can the forums Cinema Room hold?
Will wait on Russell to get back to me before we do anything or discuss logistics
I agree anal measurements are not necessary
It does sound like a nice idea but kinda sucks the wind out of Russ's sails there.
It might also give some people an excuse to imply AVForums (and their advertisers) may have an agenda here? On more than one occasion the subwoofer forum has been called bias... I don't suspect that for a minute but perhaps something truly independant, however amateurish would be less contentious
Having said that the chance to use AVForums facilities and a wider array of hardware is an attractive option
The last thing we want to do is suck the wind from Russ's sails, he can say no and get on with what he has planned no problem and no hard feelings. However we see it as a chance to do something constructive, not directly compare as the main goal, but give people the chance to hear things they normally wouldn't, in effect take the bias arguement away for good.
The AVForums has no relationship with advertisers and we are independant enthusiasts so I don't know where you are coming from with that comment. Anyway it's up to Russell, the offer is there and we can source most of the stuff needed.
Why not let Russell manage and completely oversea it? (If that would be even possible if the AVF cinema was used). I think that way members would trust the results that much more.
But I think definitely Russell should feel free to say no if this is not what he envisaged/wants.
I am coming from the point of view of someone bored silly with people criticising the subwoofer forum. I welcome the idea of a big sub test/listening session, perhaps I am just too paranoid about what some people make of these things
As a moderator of this forum I would welcome either test, but I feel we should now wait for Russell's input before further discussion.
Just to expand, why not do both anyhow? obviously a number of folks on the forums do have dedicated setups so the more clinical trial of the AVF cinema room would be good, but a lot of folks who stumble by are looking to fill their lounge, so a more wife-fearing lounge trial would be as, if not more useful.....(based on the fact more people will be using a lounge)
regardless of exact publishing details, make sure the two reviews are linked.....oh and to make things more interesting, have a couple microphones going in the rooms to capture vox so podcasts can be attached for those who find reading long indepth reviews uninteresting......
this way russ doesnt have his thunder stolen...heh, and AVF members benefit both ways....
I am sure that a few of these events could be held with listening tests involveing a good few members, also if Phil has suggested useing some good resources then a compromise could surely be met and therefore this could become a good focal point for the Sub Forum and benefit AVForums as a whole and make it one of the best resources for Sub's in real world testing !!
Russell could maybe take the lead and co-ordinate the proceedings as long as all are happy.
BTW : I may even put my beloved MX5100SF up for donation
I'd put my jaffatube into the mix ( ie my real sonotube DIY job) but it would be a bit pointless...
I've only just got home from work and I'm still digesting the developments in this thread from the last few hours. My initial thoughts, whilst by no means definitive, are as follows;
Measurements were proposed as no more than a plot, pre and post equalisation. In my case, it would be a screen grab from the SMS-1. The idea was to keep the review(s) subjective, with a little objective measurement to please the techies. Ally this detail with the rooms dimensions and you've a review that already outstips the printed press in this regard. Purely objective measurement is available in spades elsewhere.
Phil's suggestions have merit, as do the suggestions of keeping it largely independent of the forum's owners. I'll not discount either view.
It's clear that AVR, will require the input of more than one dedicated man, to become a respectable resource. You just can't generate the review volume on the back of only one bloke, however dedicated, to deliver the clout that by now we should be generating. AVF is big, but I feel, we're punching below our collective weight.
I and more than a few others besides, have oft expressed our suspicions with regards to the printed press and the market forces that drive them. The enevitable result is the distrust of the review conclusions, especially if we feel, on mass, that the results are counter to our own experience. We can deliver respectable reviews if we go about this right, although I'm under no illusion that someone, somewhere, may feel that that we're no better than the rest, for whatever reason.
If this were taken out of the 'forum' domain and into the 'Forum' domain, on a personal level, I'd like the general members views on a few points:
Can we really pull in all the products necessary to make this review happen? It requires the non forum favourites to even be worth starting. That was my main point in post No.1. - To dispel myths, or give them a creditable credence. This is where the clout of AVF could work it's magic to make this all worth while. Can we get RELs, MJs, B&Ws, MAs, MSs, etc. If we can't, then it's back to free beer at mine.
It would really need the involvement of at least four members, dedicated, commited and available to see this through. Consistency may be the watch-word here. At least some of these members would have to be bog standard forumites. Their independance and as such, their freedom of expression, would have to be believably demonstrable. I've a gob and if I can't express it, regardless of how wrong I am, then it carries no worth. If I think something's unworthy, I'm going to say so.
As much as I'd like to avail myself of the fully treated AVF HC (and I REALLY would), I'm not so sure how relevant that is to most members. With respect to the small subs, they will never be used in such a circumstance, or with high end gear. It'd be like testing them in a playground, but to a lesser degree. My system uprgades are on hold for this year, as I'm looking at funding a loft conversion to house my HC. That's extreme by most standards and even then, I'm not sure that I'll be totally treating the room, beyond doing what I can to noise insulate it. I think a degree of reviewing room variabilty, would not be a bad thing - it'll give a broader view of suitable circumstances for any given product. I'm thinking beyond subs here.
The SMS-1 v BFD thread was postulated as a possible for inclusion as an AVR review. It received little attention, inspite of PMs prior to it's writing, or posting. The cynics may suggest that was down to it's inability to upset current advertisers. Without support, it turned out that it's amature nature was unlikely to do so, but the suspicion remains - Is the interest in the sub review an indication of a shortening leash? It's important that this is cleared up early.
I'd really want to support this forum and would rather integrate our input into it's official channels, with respect to the above caveats. Otherwise, like the SMS-1 v BFD thread, they just get lost.
Yours, open to all comment,
Then we'll be able to compare it to the potential quad-Monolith setup thus far offered.
I have read your reply and I have a few pointers I hope will help things progress one way or the other.
First your comments on reviews in the press, while we cannot paint everyone with the same brush, I have had similar comments made to me during podcast interviews and so on regards the UK press, or certain elements within. This is why we have created an AVF editorial team and have taken on reviewing hardware recently. It is from an enthusiasts perspective, totally independant of any outside influence and certainly not connected with advertising in any way. The AVF adverts are sold by a team I have no contact with, (other than events like Bristol) so we can keep that influence away and thus dispel any such comments heading the way of AVF, that normally get aimed at the magazines. I am also totally unpaid for the hardware reviews, so again can't be accused of bias. We have had nothing but support from the industry with our stance and also help from real industry experts, in helping us set up objective means of testing and training to help reviews.
The issue regarding the BFD thing was fairly simple, I never heard anything else from the guys involved and noticed they had gone ahead and posted anyway, so left them too it. There is certainly nothing stopping any reviews from a commercial point of view, like I said we operate the editorial section away from any of that. For any review to appear as an official AVF editorial it has to present things in a certain way to remain independant and also give the reader onbjective, as well as subjective material to ponder and ultimately guide them with some extra knowledge under their belts. (BTW I am not saying the BFD article didn't do that, just stating what we look for.)
Before you/we can go any further you/we have to set out what it is you/we are trying to achieve. I think we are both close when it comes to letting people hear stuff that is never normally discussed on the forums and I really believe that this alone will help the forums and it's members broaden the level of discussion in areas like the subwoofer forums. I don't believe it is the case, but the sub forums can be seen as sometimes having the same products discussed time and again, not necessarily a bad thing, but maybe we can add more food for thought?
Next is what should be achieved from such an event or review and how it is presented to the forums audience. Should it be head to head tests to find the best? or more a general demo of each sub with results gathered and then given to the reader who then can make up their mind which subs they will then seek out to demo and possibily buy, a mixture of objective and subjective testing and opinion?
I would suggest that the second option is the way things should go, as with any product it might fit one set of needs for an end user, but be unsuitable for another. Maybe by presenting it as such it remains independant, there are no ultimate winners and losers as each is assessed on their merits and downsides, when looking at the broader end user base. Obviously the people present during the tests and demos will give their opinions so that also balances things. That is certainly our approach with the equipment reviews so far.
I think any head to head, which product is best type of reviews are self defeating in that regard. You have to present things in a way that can be objective with the subjective to add some spice, yet leave the reader the option to explore more.
I certainly don't think any event of this nature will achieve anything towards naming a best subwoofer on the planet, or so on, like other tests have tried and failed to do. I believe you gather the information in as controlled an enviroment as possible, with a good selection of the population, i.e. newbie through to long term addict. You then publish that data as a guide and an interesting discussion piece, where we can then generate a broader scope of subwoofers so advice on these forums, when given, is done so with a little more experience and knowledge.
As to where to test, you then run into logistics and the problems which surround organising and arranging such an event. You have to have a room that is average when it comes to the general consumer and reader, for your information the AVF theatre is just slightly bigger than a single berth garage, about the same size as your average living room. Kit to be used is also not a problem, we can ask for any level of equipment deamed necessary. I currently have a Yamaha RXV2700 and Denon 4306 on loan for review, which could be argued to be the mid range. We also have Denon's flag ship amplifier and an assortment of DVD decks from £100-2000. However I think the main purpose of the tests should be to see how each sub performs in a room when correctly set up, regardless of the source equipment and when EQ'd to take the room out of the loop again. It has to be the same for each sub and the test material has to be the same. You then have the logistics of EQing each and every sub to the same level, which has to be automated not manual in my opinion to be objective, thats where the Audyssey Pro comes in I feel. Another point is storage for the subs you will have on the day, they have to be kept somewhere and moved around lots. Plus I don't see any easy way of having quick fire comparisons if so desired as a bit of fun.
To get the logistics right will take a lot of work and will ultimately limit the subs to be shown, demoed and tested. So you have to be sure the right products are available, obviously we can do our best to get these and I am confident that if the event is set out to do what i have proposed above, i.e. promote greater discussion and knowledge of product available, then we will be supported by the manufacturers.
I hope that the above gives some food for thought on how things could progress. Like I said I am happy for Russell to go his own way on this if he feels it will be of more benefit for whatever reason. However I feel we are all on the same team here and looking for the same outcome, so hopefully things can go forward....
BTW, Russ if by AVR you mean our reviews on the forums, there are reasons why the content, will for the time being, be slow due to our set stance but thats another discussion for another time...(testing etc, not commercial issues).
However how about one guy doing the objective stuff with the reviews, testing measuring and living with the product, but also add in events like that proposed where the community have their say after seeing the equipment in the best possible way - thats got to be something worth looking at? And I feel would be the ultimate way to review kit and present things to the reader in a way that ultimately helps them decide if it's suitable for their system or not.
Anyway, over to you guys.....
Hope all the details get sorted out and this can go ahead, anything i can do which isn't much i am more than willing.
Location wise if possible i do think holding them in more than one location would be of great benefit, the hard part would be trying to get the same subs at both locations. This gives 2 major benefits as far as i can see, firstly it should allow more forumites to join in giving us more real world comments, the other real benefit would be the use of 2 different rooms but with the same subs. Obviously both locations would end up having some subs the other doesn't but aslong as a broad amount are at both sites then i see no issue with that.
On a side issue will you be including free beer aswell Phil?
For how the reviews are laid out this how i would like to see them done.
1. Firstly room dimensions with some pictures and a list of the other kit used, this only has to be done once ofc.
2. Listing of material used for testing including information for passages, timestamps etc.
3.Sub specs, cost, finishes available and anything else relevant to the actual sub.
4. A short but proper breakdown of the sub with graphs of the subs response curve before and after EQ. Maybe just a link to a respected review and just include the graphs taken in the rooms/room used.
5. A section for each user to have his/her say in their own words.
6. A summary of the sub in regards to what was said in 5.
7. No score what so ever.
Just my 2p worth.
Separate names with a comma.