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France Rejects EU Constitution

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by smelly, May 29, 2005.

  1. smelly

    smelly
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    Well the French have said no so it seems... Story Here

    I'm not 100% sure whether I'm for or against the EU constitution, I'm still learning about it as it wasn't something that I really thought of before. However this isn't good news for those who are for the constitution I assume :rolleyes:
     
  2. Miyazaki

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    In principal it is a good thing. European politicians becoming more accountable, and elections for european office instead of nominations.

    Unfortunately, this particular consitution isn't to everyone's liking, and it seems in France at least, this is being taken as a referendum on the French Prime Minister, and not necessarily as a referedum on Europe.

    It will probably nullify any British referedum, which Blair was hoping for.
     
  3. chard

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    Great news if they have voted against this, hopefully the Dutch will endorse this with their vote later in the week.

    The EU socialist experiment is dying, lets ensure it dies screaming !! :devil:

    Just read where Chirac has refused to resign....this scumbag needs to stay in power to avoid prosecution apparently :mad:
     
  4. pringtef

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    Wow. The political ramifications of this result are huge, particularly when you see the size of the majority. When you couple that with the UK taking over the presidency at the end of next month, it's going to take some amount of wheeling and dealing to salvage anything.

    Wonder if this is going to rekindle the flames of nationalism in other countries concerned about this european experiment?
     
  5. la gran siete

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    Wonder if this is going to rekindle the flames of nationalism in other countries concerned about this european experiment?

    And lead to another world war? Great! :( :(
     
  6. chard

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    yeah I agree with LGS, lets force everyone into a huge federation and institute more and more draconian laws in order to force them to conform with the will of the 'empire'........cause that really worked in the former Yugoslavia, Soviet Union ...and er...Star Wars.......
     
  7. pringtef

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    Outwardly i'm sure Germany will still make the big thing about their "relationship" with France, but you've got to wonder whats going to happen between them inwardly.

    French elections in 2006 as well, so Chiracs unlikely to want to rock the voters any more with another referendum.

    There was quite a good comment by one of the French 'non' voters on Sky news today. He said that politicians were trying to artificially stimulate the development of europe, rather than letting it develop naturally, and with more solidity.
     
  8. GrahamC

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    Funny, I thought they voted no because they didn't want a British style of Anglo-Saxon market economy thrust upon them and that the EU was to tilted to business and not taking a more people orientated slant which was how it was sold to them in the first place. :confused: Suppose it's which channel you watch the news on.. :D.

    Agree on Chirac though...
     
  9. overkill

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    Funny, it was largely the left in France that urged the 'no' vote, and it was their supporters who mass voted 'no'. Yet another cliche goes down in flames. :rolleyes:

    Back in realityville I can understand peoples misgivings on voting for such a poorly prepared, badly conceived document, as the EU constitution - even if I have no problem with the European ideal.

    However, it seems the vote was also a referendum on Chirac, which is a big danger with them. In Ireland for example, the 'no' vote was also used as a stick to beat Bertie. Makes them kind of pointless if that's the case. Lets face it, if Blair suddenly switched to the 'no' camp the 'yes' votes cause in the UK would receive a massive boost! :D

    Good point.
     
  10. chard

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    not so ....the extreme left did take offence at some aspects of the constitution, however...AND OVERKILL PLEASE READ CAREFULLY..... my post simply refered to the EU experiment which is and remains a left wing driven institution, which will fail.
     
  11. overkill

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    The first half of that contradicts itself. Nuff said. Shout in your own house all you like Chard, but don't shout at me. :mad: The majority of the current EU framework was drawn up in the 1980's by the likes of Thatcher, Major, Kohl, Chirac, none of whom were, and the majority of whom would be seriously offended by being described as, 'Socialists'. Can anyone see them drawing up a 'left wing experiment'? No, hardly.

    I do believe the original plan for the EEC itself was also drawn up under Adenauer and DeGaulle, again, two august gentlemen of the right.

    If fact, who are these mysterious 'lefties' who drew up the current EU? I ask this as the left, moderate or extreme has never been that comfortable with it.

    The current 'New Labour' meps may be more in favour of the constitution than the right, but frankly that's not saying much.
     
  12. chard

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    the left wing in France opposed the constitution on a number of grounds, but remain strongly wedded to the EU fantasy...CAPICE !? :cool:
     
  13. overkill

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    What is an EU fantasy? :rolleyes: Did that even attempt to answer my post? No and no. That was pure :spam: nothing more. Capice (sic)? :rolleyes:

    Agreed Games. It's something I've been arguing for years the EU needs - accountability.

    Exactly.
     
  14. chard

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    the fantasy that the EU can work.....now do you understand ?

    hrre we go....nothing possibly wrong with the EU ideal or the constitution...oh no...this has to be simply about Chirac.... :rolleyes:

    ....and when the Dutch throw this out, will that be because they don't like Chirac either... :rolleyes:


    the sooner people realise that there is a basic flaw with the EU which people are rebelling against - this Constitution is simply a final straw, and frankly also the first opportunity most have had to voice their opinion in many years.
    It is a disgrace that some countries such as Germany have had this pushed through by the politicians of that country.

    The EU as it is now envisaged by the gang in Brussels is desperatly trying to be a one-fit shop....impossible and people are seeing through it.

    A free trade zone is what we joined and not a political superpower which seeks to impose uniformity, conformity and socialist ideals ( reduced hours working being the latest example) and removes power and democracy from individual countries.

    It is great to see common sense coming from the 'people'.
     
  15. overkill

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    Can you neverhold a debate without being rude? Hmmmm?

    Nobody said it was purely about Chirac. The French correspondents (hell, what do they know eh?) have however, constantly stated that the French public would use this as referendum on Chirac as well as the EU constitution.

    I quite agree. Every country should let the public decide on such an important issue.

    Once again it seems funny, that with the majority of European nations being either run by right wing govts, or so called 'centre left' that 'socialist ideals' are being adopted and approved. The reduction in working hours to aid overall working conditions is an idea that goes back to Disraeli. Again, hardly a "socialist".

    So, if they agree with the anti EU crowd it's 'common sense' but not if they don't. Good to see such a mature approach to such an important question.
     
  16. chard

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    :spam: :spam:

    ....finally :rolleyes:
     
  17. Ed Selley

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    It is but this constitution was originally written to make a 25 nation EU work more efficiently which in my opinion at least is a noble enough cause. In the meantime however the document suffered from "mission creep" where it tried to become altogether more encompassing which meant it became altogether more problematic. The other problem it faces is that in the meantime, we're up to 25 nations in the EU without it and the system is holding together fine.

    I think that fact that the French rejected the constitution in part because of it being too "Anglo Saxon" (although I agree it was a referendum on Chirac first and foremost) and other nations have issues with the fact they consider the constitution to be a francophile document is evidence that we cannot ever have too tight a constitution- nations should rightfully celebrate their differences. I'd much rather see a document of no more that 20 pages that can be amended where necessary over time and contains no direct instruction of any facet of contempory policy- a bit like one some Americans knocked up in 1776 in fact.
     
  18. Jenn

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    French people voted no for a whole range of reasons: some because they didn't like the constitution, some because they don't like the idea of a european union as a whole, some because they didn't like the PM, some Chirac, some didn't like the whole government and some just voted no because of the situation in France (unemployment, house prices etc.).

    Like the last presidential elections where Le Pen made it to the second round to everyone's surprise, the votes are simply to express their discontent regarding anything in their life.
    Last elections didn't mean people liked Le Pen, they just voted against the government. A bit like here where people voted conservative because they didn't want to vote Labour.
     
  19. chard

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    wouldn't have thought that happened to often - the anti Labour prtest vote tended to go to Lib Dem. Those who switched from Labour to Con were most likely due to a positive decision to vote Con. Remember the majority of voters in England voted Tory...yep, England is Tory land again !!
     
  20. Jenn

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    Think about it again: most people knew that Lib Dem had no chance of getting into power so who would they vote for to get Blair out ? Yes that's right, Conservatives. That's a tactical vote.
    Doesn't mean they like conservatives, just that they hate Labour more.

    Well anyway that would be right for some voters, and it would be right for some others that they voted Lib Dem, but my point was that they didn't vote for who they believed was right, they voted against Labour.
    And similarly in France they didn't vote no because they 100% believed the constitution was to be burnt, many of them didn't even understand it ! They just voted no to go against the government's wish (amongst other reasons).
     
  21. Ed Selley

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    That is a bit of a broad sweep of the brush there. Unlike here, every household was sent a copy of the constitution and televised debates about the finer points of it attracted the largest televised audiences the French have seen recently. The populace was given a far more informative and level debate than I think we would ever receive here. That they still rejected the document (whilst I believe that Chirac's popualrity was a factor I do not believe for a second the French people would reject something they perceived as beneficial simply because of the present govt) is more interesting as a result.
     
  22. Jenn

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    I didn't say people perceived the consitution as beneficial but just voted against for the sake of it.

    Having a copy of the constitution doesn't mean people understood it, it was a 230 pages or so document that I bet many didn't read and for the ones who read it, many didn't understand the whole of it.
    So many people based their decisions on debates and what they actually believed (not always the truth). But do you think people who are unhappy with Chirac would actually listen to what he has to say (maybe some, but many not) ?
    The yes camp actually thought that Chirac was doing more bad than good when he asked the French to vote yes the last time.
     
  23. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    How do oyun work that one out? At the height of their popularity they only polled 46% of the vote . This time round it was in the low thirties and millions didnt bother to vote at all. If you said the south east I would agree ( I am surrounded by the blighters)
     
  24. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    The French know far more about food than they would ever know about politics :D
     
  25. chard

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    because the Tory's polled 90,000 more votes than Labour did in England.
     
  26. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    Yes but you havent taken into account than millions didnty bother to voote and that others switched to Lib dems because of the Iraq business.
    Tory England ?? My bottom!
     
  27. chard

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    who knows how people who didn't vote would have voted !?
    The Tory Party are the most popular party in England by 90,000 votes.

    Back to the original thread - that 'statement ' by Chirac was almost 'Blairesc' in its weasilyness and spin...... Chirac refuses to resign and has switched all the blame to the PM and replaced him by one who has never stood for election.....now there is a great example of European democracy at work....

    Can't wait to see the Dutch result ....followed quickly by the pro-EU excuses that the people didn't understand the argument or that they were being racist.
     
  28. la gran siete

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    Take a statistic and read whichever way you will . For me you are just clutching at straws . Tories popular in the south east as always.
     
  29. la gran siete

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    As I inderstand it Chirac has indictments the length of his arm pending which is presumably why he clutches on to power and makes others(PM) expendable.the French quite rightly dont like him. Him and Berlusconi are the sleazebags of Europe
     
  30. chard

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    apparently so, he makes Blair look ...well....seriously less greasy...
     

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