frame rate problem with smartphone video

Martin68

Active Member
not sure if i should post this in the camcorder or smart phone forum as the line between the quality of the cameras is becoming very blured now, especially being that smart phones can now shoot at 4k before dedicated camcorders can!

My biggest gripe though is why there are no PAL cameras on smartphones? ALL smart phones to date shoot only either 30p or 60p, I have yet to find a 25/50p shooter to go with my existing video camera hardware. This is very frustrating if i'm going on holiday and plan to shoot with the smart phone and my PAL camcorder, then mix the videos together in post editing.

I'm really liking the Galaxy S5 as a high quality pocket size camcorder, but it's only NTSC which is a pain for PAL users.

more than half of the world use PAL 25/50, so why are there no PAL smartphone cameras?
 

rogs

Well-known Member
more than half of the world use PAL 25/50, so why are there no PAL smartphone cameras?


That is true at the moment, but as the technical reasons for specifically using PAL 25/50 become less important I can see it starting to play second fiddle to the more common 30/60 and 24fps we see being used on more and more on a variety of devices.
I see, for example, that You Tube are starting to introduce both 48 and 60 fps formats in the near future. No mention of 50 fps. Changing 50 fps to 48 shouldn't be too much of a problem though - bit like the PAL 'speedup' currently used for showing 24 fps films on TV, but in reverse!

I agree that trying to mix 50 and 60 fps material without introducing serious motion 'glitches' is all but impossible. From a consumer equipment point of view, I suggest the manufacturers couldn't care less....
Modern TVs and computer video players, along with hardware media players can all handle different frame rates easily, so it doesn't matter which you use. It's the mixing of different frame rate source material that causes the problem, and as I say, I don't think the manufacturers care much about that.

Things are different at the pro level of course, and I would guess will stay that way for a while yet.
Be interested to see what other members think?.....
 

Martin68

Active Member

That is true at the moment, but as the technical reasons for specifically using PAL 25/50 become less important I can see it starting to play second fiddle to the more common 30/60 and 24fps we see being used on more and more on a variety of devices.
I see, for example, that You Tube are starting to introduce both 48 and 60 fps formats in the near future. No mention of 50 fps. Changing 50 fps to 48 shouldn't be too much of a problem though - bit like the PAL 'speedup' currently used for showing 24 fps films on TV, but in reverse!

I agree that trying to mix 50 and 60 fps material without introducing serious motion 'glitches' is all but impossible. From a consumer equipment point of view, I suggest the manufacturers couldn't care less....
Modern TVs and computer video players, along with hardware media players can all handle different frame rates easily, so it doesn't matter which you use. It's the mixing of different frame rate source material that causes the problem, and as I say, I don't think the manufacturers care much about that.

Things are different at the pro level of course, and I would guess will stay that way for a while yet.
Be interested to see what other members think?.....
So if frame rates are no longer important, then why are consumer level camcorders and compact cameras still made with pal and ntsc versions depending on the regions?
 

12harry

Well-known Member
I suspect, with suitable software the distinction between OLD 50 fps and 60 is long gone, as we are in digital it's all about information contained in video files - they're not pieces of films and the whole image isn't there.
I have a suspicion that Sony Movie Studio allows mixed-frame-rates and then produces whatever you want at the end. Of course Editing with "Match Media Formats" is far easier and less confusing. but not a killer, like in the past partly because TV's are Digital.
However, for the best quality it may pay to wait, before spending lots of money on new kit.

The reason the smartphones are only 30+60 fps is a Marketing decision and it helps to stifle Demand. I wonder theough that the bigger issue is the NTSC - which was never that good at colour - Perhaps some Techy ( here ) can suggest otherwise . . . . .
 

grahamlthompson

Distinguished Member
So if frame rates are no longer important, then why are consumer level camcorders and compact cameras still made with pal and ntsc versions depending on the regions?
PAL and NTSC is an analogue colour broadcasting system. So digital camcorders are neither NTSC or PAL. Camcorders normally use the frame rate that is used for digital broadcasting in the area they are sold. In Europe that's 25/50 fps. In areas that formerly had NTSC the frame rates are 29.97 and 2 x 29.97 fps (nominally 30/60fps).

If you mix different frame rates within the same movie title, then the editor will do it's best with content that doesn't match the editor project settings. This not only includes frame rate but also resolution.

If you don't mix content then pretty well all HD TV's and Projectors in the UK will be perfectly happy with 24 (provided the display supports 1080p24),25, 29.97, 2 x29.97, 50, 60 fps content.

Most games consoles also output at 30/60 fps.
 

rogs

Well-known Member
So if frame rates are no longer important, then why are consumer level camcorders and compact cameras still made with pal and ntsc versions depending on the regions?
I think frame rates are still considered important -- the BBC for example will still only accept 25 or 50 fps footage, and broadcast at 25p or 25i.
And as you say most consumer camcorder - or video capable cameras of various descriptions - are still maunfactured in both PAL and NTSC versions.
It's just seems to be phone cameras. Which is perhaps understandable?..... Although the video specs of the latest versions seem quite impressive ('1080p' --'full HD' -- '4K' etc..) a lot of that is marketing hype.
Recording video at high resolution is largely over the top, if the associated optics don't come up to scratch... and most phone cameras are not known for the excellence of their lenses!
Image recording is still very much a secondary function... hence the lack of interest in making special PAL versions.

Using an audio equivalent scenario..... you wouldn't need to use a 24 bit 96KHz PCM audio recorder to record a telephone conversation. Telephone microphones simply aren't that good.

And a camera phone is a bit like that. The '4K' or 'full HD' capability is like the high resolution audio recorder...and the camera lens is a bit like a telephone microphone... no where near as good.

As has been mentioned in another thread, the days of the consumer camcorder may be numbered. The vast majority of folk are happy to use camera phones and upload to YouTube or wherever. They don't care about frame rates. They will however have bought the latest all singing and dancing 'full HD' version of the phone because the marketing hype will have convinced them it's a 'must have' feature.
In reality, it's probably not.....

Prosumer and full professional video equipment will however still appear in both 50fps and 60fps versions I would think....
 

grahamlthompson

Distinguished Member
My Nikon DSLR can shoot movies in 25/50 or 30/60. It's a switch in the menu system.
 

12harry

Well-known Member
glt - I mentioned NTSC / PAL in the Edit because in the "Options" for Sony Movie Studio it lists both the frame-rate with NTSC/PAL ( i.e. in the same line ).
Do you think Digital camcorders all record their frames the same way?
 

grahamlthompson

Distinguished Member
glt - I mentioned NTSC / PAL in the Edit because in the "Options" for Sony Movie Studio it lists both the frame-rate with NTSC/PAL ( i.e. in the same line ).
Do you think Digital camcorders all record their frames the same way?
I don't understand your question. But No digital camcorders don't all record frames the same way.

They can use different compression codecs (DV (tape based) Mpeg2 Mpeg4 H264/AVC and others). And different frame rate and resolution options.
 

Hillskill

Moderator/Games Reviewer
There are plenty of apps that will allow you to shoot in 25fps
 

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