Forget ffdshow or Dxva. Madvr, lavcuvid, and lav filters is the future

joeydrunk

Novice Member
If you have an NVIDIA gpu, wich by the way should be the only gpu you need to buy for an htpc now at least until someone can manage to figure out how to use ati's stream graphics engine to do video decoding and rendering the way that madvr + lav cuvid does.

Also there is no reason to use ffdshow bloatware anymore because if lav filters.

Read for yourselves:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=156191

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=160290

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228
 

Enwezor

Novice Member
I'm not being lazy here but could someone summarise why this is important.

Like many on this forum, I use an ATI 5450 card to bitstream audio to my AV Receiver. I also use FFDShow, the mkv splitter from MPH-HC standalone filters.

It all works fine and looks pretty much as good as if I was playing a DVD or Blu-ray from a player. I can't see any difference. It also sounds exactly the same.

Why is the madvr + lav cuvid approach better if it is?
 

joeydrunk

Novice Member
Enwezor said:
I'm not being lazy here but could someone summarise why this is important.

Like many on this forum, I use an ATI 5450 card to bitstream audio to my AV Receiver. I also use FFDShow, the mkv splitter from MPH-HC standalone filters.

It all works fine and looks pretty much as good as if I was playing a DVD or Blu-ray from a player. I can't see any difference. It also sounds exactly the same.

Why is the madvr + lav cuvid approach better if it is?
If it works fine and your happy with it that's fine. I'm telling you the best possible quality you can get and the latest technology to achieve those results. You don't need to worry about lav cuvid and madvr anyway since you have an ATI card but you should definitly download the .26 of lav filters to replace ffdshow, its much better quality. Read doom9 for specifics.
 
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Trollslayer

Distinguished Member
I use ATI based cards because they have better PQ processing for video decoding then nVidia.
This was proven by an article in Tom's Hardware, in particular for motion compensation.
None of the threads you mentioned address PQ.
 

joeydrunk

Novice Member
Trollslayer said:
I use ATI based cards because they have better PQ processing for video decoding then nVidia.
This was proven by an article in Tom's Hardware, in particular for motion compensation.
None of the threads you mentioned address PQ.
You have absolutly no idea what you are talking about. You need to read much more I'm afraid. Using madvr video renderer with lav cuvid video decoder allows allow it to access the NVIDIA CUDA api for video processing. This has never been accomplished before. It uses the same technology that has only been available to video games. No one has been able been able to make software that will allow you to do this with ATI's cards. This goes way beyond dxva. This is hands down the best possible picture quality you can achieve with a pc. You need to use a gpu with a good number of stream processors as well. So you'll want at least a gts 450 preferably a gtx 460

GT 520 DDR3: 48 sp, 12.8GB/s
- GT 430 DDR3: 96 sp, 28.8GB/s
- GT 440 DDR3: 96 sp, 28.8GB/s (this is an OCed version of GT 430)
- GT 440 GDDR5: 96 sp, 51.2GB/s
- GTS 450 GDDR5: 192 sp, 57.7GB/s
- GTX 550 Ti GDDR5: 192 sp, 98.5GB/s
- GT 460 GDDR5: 336 sp, 115.2GB/s

Go back to doom9 read the lav cuvid and madvr threads, go to AVS forums and read the couple threads on it and get back to me.
 

jameson_uk

Novice Member
I have been using the LAV splitter for a while now. Haali for a long time has been lacking in some features and has I believe development has largely gronud to a halt. LAV seems to cope with many more containers.

I have also been playing with the audio filter which seems to work pretty well but is still in development.

madVR however is a different kettle of fish. In theory yes this is good but there is no way to use it with overlays so in front ends you loose the ability for menus etc (indeed anything that would appear over the video). LAV GUVID is also limited to 32 bit and limited to NVidia cards.

As many of you know, I don't like installing things for the sake of it... The splitter certainly seems great and irons out many of the issues with Haali and the MPC splitters. Installing this on it's own should be sufficient for most users. The audio stuff is worth a play for HD bitstreaming but the underlying code is still ffmpeg like FFDShow.

I would say that this is likely to end up replacing FFDShow in the long term but for now it is certainly worth using the splitter and possibly the audio but if you are using a front end with 10' UI then the video stuff is still not really worth it IMHO.
 

joeydrunk

Novice Member
jameson_uk said:
I have been using the LAV splitter for a while now. Haali for a long time has been lacking in some features and has I believe development has largely gronud to a halt. LAV seems to cope with many more containers.

I have also been playing with the audio filter which seems to work pretty well but is still in development.

madVR however is a different kettle of fish. In theory yes this is good but there is no way to use it with overlays so in front ends you loose the ability for menus etc (indeed anything that would appear over the video). LAV GUVID is also limited to 32 bit and limited to NVidia cards.

As many of you know, I don't like installing things for the sake of it... The splitter certainly seems great and irons out many of the issues with Haali and the MPC splitters. Installing this on it's own should be sufficient for most users. The audio stuff is worth a play for HD bitstreaming but the underlying code is still ffmpeg like FFDShow.

I would say that this is likely to end up replacing FFDShow in the long term but for now it is certainly worth using the splitter and possibly the audio but if you are using a front end with 10' UI then the video stuff is still not really worth it IMHO.
You are mistaken sir. You can use it with mpchc full menus and can completly integrate it with jriver media center as well as potplayer and zoom player. You can setup an external mpchc in xbmc and use it with that or wmc/mediabrowser and use it with that. The only thing I'm not sure about is the 32 bit thing. Il get back to you.The only limitation is NVIDIA but I don't see it as a limitation at all if it can.give you better pic quality that anything available. You should really do more reading on it before you discourage people from using it.

Also it is replacing ffdshow rapidly and its going to be implemented in and replace internal MPC-HC splitter/filters/decoders.

It's LavCuvid by the way
 
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joeydrunk

Novice Member
Enwezor said:
Jesus Christ joey, you're a bit aggressive. Very interesting though.
I apologize. I just dont want people to not accept something that is better because of ignorance or fear of change.
 

joeydrunk

Novice Member
jameson_uk said:
I have been using the LAV splitter for a while now. Haali for a long time has been lacking in some features and has I believe development has largely gronud to a halt. LAV seems to cope with many more containers.

I have also been playing with the audio filter which seems to work pretty well but is still in development.

madVR however is a different kettle of fish. In theory yes this is good but there is no way to use it with overlays so in front ends you loose the ability for menus etc (indeed anything that would appear over the video). LAV GUVID is also limited to 32 bit and limited to NVidia cards.

As many of you know, I don't like installing things for the sake of it... The splitter certainly seems great and irons out many of the issues with Haali and the MPC splitters. Installing this on it's own should be sufficient for most users. The audio stuff is worth a play for HD bitstreaming but the underlying code is still ffmpeg like FFDShow.

I would say that this is likely to end up replacing FFDShow in the long term but for now it is certainly worth using the splitter and possibly the audio but if you are using a front end with 10' UI then the video stuff is still not really worth it IMHO.
Oh your talking about it being a 32 bit app? That dosn't matter at all. All my systems are 64bit. you can use it with Wmc, xbmc, mediabrowser, media portal, mpchc, jriver, potplayer, wmp, zoomplayer. Am I forgetting anything that the 32 bit would impede it from doing?
 

mikes

Well-known Member
You have absolutly no idea what you are talking about. You need to read much more I'm afraid. Using madvr video renderer with lav cuvid video decoder allows allow it to access the NVIDIA CUDA api for video processing. This has never been accomplished before. It uses the same technology that has only been available to video games. No one has been able been able to make software that will allow you to do this with ATI's cards. This goes way beyond dxva. This is hands down the best possible picture quality you can achieve with a pc. You need to use a gpu with a good number of stream processors as well. So you'll want at least a gts 450 preferably a gtx 460

GT 520 DDR3: 48 sp, 12.8GB/s
- GT 430 DDR3: 96 sp, 28.8GB/s
- GT 440 DDR3: 96 sp, 28.8GB/s (this is an OCed version of GT 430)
- GT 440 GDDR5: 96 sp, 51.2GB/s
- GTS 450 GDDR5: 192 sp, 57.7GB/s
- GTX 550 Ti GDDR5: 192 sp, 98.5GB/s
- GT 460 GDDR5: 336 sp, 115.2GB/s

Go back to doom9 read the lav cuvid and madvr threads, go to AVS forums and read the couple threads on it and get back to me.
This is extremely enthusiastic evangelising for these packages. Do you have any connection with the producers/authors of the software or are you being altruistic? If it's the latter, well good for you!

Will it make any visual difference to the average user?
 

joeydrunk

Novice Member
mikes said:
This is extremely enthusiastic evangelising for these packages. Do you have any connection with the producers/authors of the software or are you being altruistic? If it's the latter, well good for you!

Will it make any visual difference to the average user?
Neither. I'm trying to help my fellow htpc enthusiasts across the pond stay up to speed.
 

jameson_uk

Novice Member
You are mistaken sir. You can use it with mpchc full menus and can completly integrate it with jriver media center as well as potplayer and zoom player. You can setup an external mpchc and use it with that or wmc/mediabrowser and use it with that.
Most people with HTPCs are going to be using Mediaportal, XBMC and 7MC and out the box none of these will work with madVR.

Then you have external players... External players can be used in many things but can cause many many issues. things like integration and also madVR running in full screen exclusive mode can prevent the application rendering menus, notifications etc. MPC has specific code in to render it's menus using madVR.

The key here is a balance between picture quality and usability. madVR has been the best solution for picture quality for a while but is certainly not the best solution in terms of usability. I know that my misses does not care about PQ (indeed she is not interested in the differences between SD and HD...) but if I made the HTPC more difficult to use she would kill me :rolleyes:

The only thing I'm not sure about is the 32 bit thing. Il get back to you.
from the Doom9 thread
Code:
Binarys are available here (due to a limitation in the CUDA SDK 3.2, currently only 32-bit is available)
The only limitation is NVIDIA but I don't see it as a limitation at all if it can.give you better pic quality that anything available. You should really do more reading on it before you discourage people from using it.
I am not discouraging people, just highlighting the things they should know about... in fact I do believe I actually recommended using the splitter and audio side :rolleyes:

Also it is replacing ffdshow rapidly and its going to be implemented in and replace internal MPC-HC splitter/filters/decoders.
Agreed, the splitter is great and the audio is getting there and this is a great sign for the video stuff. A friend of a friend is involved with the developer on this so I am kept aware of what is happening here and everything is looking very promising.
 

Enwezor

Novice Member
So Joey, is there any noticeable difference in picture quality with the lavcuvid, lav filter approach?
Is it more noticeable on HD content?
 

joeydrunk

Novice Member
jameson_uk said:
Most people with HTPCs are going to be using Mediaportal, XBMC and 7MC and out the box none of these will work with madVR.

Then you have external players... External players can be used in many things but can cause many many issues. things like integration and also madVR running in full screen exclusive mode can prevent the application rendering menus, notifications etc. MPC has specific code in to render it's menus using madVR.

The key here is a balance between picture quality and usability. madVR has been the best solution for picture quality for a while but is certainly not the best solution in terms of usability. I know that my misses does not care about PQ (indeed she is not interested in the differences between SD and HD...) but if I made the HTPC more difficult to use she would kill me :rolleyes:

from the Doom9 thread
Binarys are available here (due to a limitation in the CUDA SDK 3.2, currently only 32-bit is available)

I am not discouraging people, just highlighting the things they should know about... in fact I do believe I actually recommended using the splitter and audio side :rolleyes:

Agreed, the splitter is great and the audio is getting there and this is a great sign for the video stuff. A friend of a friend is involved with the developer on this so I am kept aware of what is happening here and everything is looking very promising.
I agree with most of what you said. I know madvr dosn't work with the native players. But j think most htpc builders are tweakers at heart. It dosnt take long to setup an external player in any front end. You can easily have your external player running smoothly and with the picture advantages compared to stock xbmc/wmc players I think it is well with it. 32 bit app dosn't limit anything as well that I can think of. You can god course use it with a 64bit player bit there's no reason to, just use 32bit.
 
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jameson_uk

Novice Member
Oh your talking about it being a 32 bit app? That dosn't matter at all. All my systems are 64bit. you can use it with Wmc, xbmc, mediabrowser, media portal, mpchc, jriver, potplayer, wmp, zoomplayer. Am I forgetting anything that the 32 bit would impede it from doing?
32 bits apps use 32 bit filters and can run on a 64 bit OS but 64 bit applications require 64 bit filters. So if the filter is indeed 32 bit (which I am fairly sure it is) then it will not work with MPC-HC x64 only MPC x86

Also someone might install the x64 splitter and x86 video filter and then be confused why they do not play together.... As I was saying in the previous post this comes down to ease of use vs fiddling and picture quality
 

joeydrunk

Novice Member
jameson_uk said:
32 bits apps use 32 bit filters and can run on a 64 bit OS but 64 bit applications require 64 bit filters. So if the filter is indeed 32 bit (which I am fairly sure it is) then it will not work with MPC-HC x64 only MPC x86

Also someone might install the x64 splitter and x86 video filter and then be confused why they do not play together.... As I was saying in the previous post this comes down to ease of use vs fiddling and picture quality
Of course. I know this. You can't use a x64 with an x86 and vice versa. But there's no media centers or players that could use madvr/lav cuvid that are only x64. So there's no need to worry about that.

I don't know why you keep bringing up usability. It's not that difficult at all to integrate or to use, its all in the background. My OP was stating the fact that it gives the best picture quality available on a htpc. People should know this and decide what they want to use. For this reason I will no longer recommend ATI gpus to people until software is developed to utilize ati's stream api.
 

Enwezor

Novice Member
What would be useful is someone to put a simple installation & configuration guide together. Some forum members over time have put together excellent guides together to show how to install and configure and use (ffdshow, MPC-HC filters, GraphStudio, Graphedit, filter override tool, tsmuxer, etc.)
Maybe someone can take a stab at it.
 

joeydrunk

Novice Member
Enwezor said:
What would be useful is someone to put a simple installation & configuration guide together. Some forum members over time have put together excellent guides together to show how to install and configure and use (ffdshow, MPC-HC filters, GraphStudio, Graphedit, filter override tool, tsmuxer, etc.)
Maybe someone can take a stab at it.
I'm new here but I guess I could. I'm currently in the process of making a sticky at avsforums for a list of links to htpc/media center plugins, apps, addons, tutorials, tweaks, tips, guides, scripts, programs etc.

If none has made one by the time I'm finished with that, I will. My avsforums buddy assassin has a paid guide at his blog that explains how to implement the lav filters audio part along with a bunch of other stuff in wmc.-

http://assassinhtpcblog.com/

He also has a sticky thread at avsforums called assassins simple/beginners guide to building a htpc.
 

MikeK

Novice Member
If it works fine and your happy with it that's fine. I'm telling you the best possible quality you can get and the latest technology to achieve those results. You don't need to worry about lav cuvid and madvr anyway since you have an ATI card but you should definitly download the .26 of lav filters to replace ffdshow, its much better quality. Read doom9 for specifics.

The lavfilter package is at v0.27 now (released on Tuesday), and madvr can be used with an ATI card (you don't need lavcuvid, which is the bit which can't be used with an ATI card)

Lav audio decoder is probably easier to use than ffdshow, and it has a neat trick in enabling pretty seemless DTS-HD onboard decoding by using the Arcsoft HD decoder - since it's largely based on similar code to ffdshow though, I doubt there's much (if anything) in it in terms of audio quality.
FFDshow can do a lot more audio processing though if that's what you want!

LAV splitter seems quite reliable though so far!
 

joeydrunk

Novice Member
MikeK said:
The lavfilter package is at v0.27 now (released on Tuesday), and madvr can be used with an ATI card (you don't need lavcuvid, which is the bit which can't be used with an ATI card)

Lav audio decoder is probably easier to use than ffdshow, and it has a neat trick in enabling pretty seemless DTS-HD onboard decoding by using the Arcsoft HD decoder - since it's largely based on similar code to ffdshow though, I doubt there's much (if anything) in it in terms of audio quality.
FFDshow can do a lot more audio processing though if that's what you want!

LAV splitter seems quite reliable though so far!
Tru, tru. Madvr with ati is hell on the CPU isn't it? Sweet,I didnt know .27 came out, I havnt been over to doom9 in a minute. What's new?
 

djcla

Distinguished Member
right im running ffdshow with mpc-hc and mpc-hc splitters from a while back . Please explain where do i get the av splitter? DOes the latest MPC-HC from xvid video decode HD audio yet without the need for FFDshow?
 

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