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First W/E with the CRT

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Jeff, Jul 8, 2002.

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  1. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Roland came to install a BD1209s on Friday, the projector looked a little smaller and weighed a little less than what I was expecting, although Roland did say he was carrying the heavy bit. I still nearly managed to drop the thing as we negotiated the front door. After that it was plain sailing all the way (well mostly). I always had these visions of Roland doing his trademark hanging off the projector mount and the whole roof caving in. So I did stand back a little and was positioned for a quick getaway had my worst fears come true. I needn't had worried since Roland could hang there even with the projector in place and the ceiling hardly creaked. Unfortunately neither of us had a compatible video cable so this was a good chance for Roland to show off his cable making skills. With the projector and the expertly made VGA to BNC cable in place Roland set to work on all the various calibration and setup tasks. Being a CRT newbie I did try to learn from what Roland was doing but I soon got overwhelmed, so I just sat back and watched in quiet admiration. With the setup complete it was time to pop in a DVD and see it in action. My screen is a reminder of my failed digital days a Stewart Grayhawk measuring 1600x900mm. With a screen this size the 1209s had no problems producing a punchy image with good contrast despite the 0.95 gain and greyness of the screen. One issue that did come up was that when displaying a full white screen you could see a blue tint to the left and red tint to the right, my guess this is caused to the projector being so physically close to the screen due to its size. Its possible that the effect is made worse by the Grayhawk. Under close scrutiny it is possible to see the effect during bright scenes, but its something I can probably live with. I certainly don't see a good reason to change the Grayhawk just yet. The first DVD we tried was Pearl Harbour, its been a while since I've had a projector in action, but it looked pretty good to me, maybe a bit soft. I know from what others have said the the picture quality improves a lot after Rolands second visit so I'm not too worried at this stage. Roland also stated that the VDC tubes need further run-in, in particular the green tube has a considerable amount of flare which makes the focus look off. During the W/E I spent some time working out the projector settings and I had a go at doing the convergence for the first time. This was difficult to do since the flare of the green made it difficult to converge so that the red and blue matched up. I also kept getting the copy profile wrong and a couple of times ended up overwriting my good work and had to start again (What a newbie!). I soon got bored with tweaking so I watched few movies. The only thing that really bothered me was the reds, very orangey. Just as I was getting used to the colour my wife walked in and commented on it. This from a woman that hardly ever comments about PQ and would rather watch DVDs on a normal telly rather than a high end home theatre system. To take my mind off it, I went for Final Fantasy. When I tried to watch it on my old DLP projector I found it to be unwatchable due to rainbows and poor detail in the greys and blacks (most of the film). On the CRT it looked a totally different film, in fact it looked so good I didn't mind the poor dialogue and the constipated look of the CGI faces. Other things to note are noise and heat. After a couple of hours my small room gets rather uncomfortable and with the fans now going at full pelt the noise is also a bit overwhelming. Roland has yet to replace to fans so hopefully this will improve. For the heat I'll need to look at either air con or channelling the projector fan exhaust out of the room. All in all I'm happy so far, but I'm still some way off the true potential of the projector. Many thanks to Roland for getting me started, without him CRT would probably have not been an option
     
  2. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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  3. Matinee

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    how large is your room Jeff? Bit smaller than 4m, using the HD10L lenses on the BG1209?

    I am, of course, exceptionally envious :) Enjoy your pj!

    PK
     
  4. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Hi PK,

    My room is a mere 7x14 ft, although the ceiling height is quite good. I do have some concerns over focus with my HD300 lenses and that HD10Ls might have been more suitable. I'm in good hands, I'm sure Roland will get the projector singing on the return visit.
     
  5. Roland @ B4

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    Jeff glad you are pleased with the first pass.
    I have found time and again that projectors need to bed in before they are truely tweeked and calibrated. The chasis needs to settle and the electronics get used to their new magnetic fields.

    It's interesting what you said about Reds I must confess I did'nt notice it at the time but you having had experience of the lamped projectors if there is one thing that should come out well on CRT it's RED.

    I had real problems adapting to the Greyhawk screen. Comparitivly it is quite a high gain screen it just has this grey material instead of pure white. Hence the colour shift.

    The HD300's are more than able to cope with the resolutions of home cinema. They are close to their limits but still have a fraction of adjustment left. If any one has a set of HD10L lenses lying about though.

    Jeff's fans need changing but that is not the answer to heat build up in the room. In order to keep the projector really quiet it needs to have the hot air removed.

    I look forwards to the next session.
    Many thanks for all the coffee
     
  6. uncle eric

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    Jeff,
    A few words of advice if I may.
    The single biggest improvement you could make to your overall image quality would be to get rid of the GreyHawk. I know this is left over from your single lense days but its degrading your PQ to a fairly high degree.
    While the GreyHawk offers plus points to DLP/LCD with its deeper perceived blacks etc, the effect it has on your CRT is highly derogatory.
    The GreyHawk will make the colours murky and less vibrant while at the same time giving them much darker hue's. Whites will also be dull. Importantly, due to the 'darker whites' the percieved contrast ratio will be lower making the images less snappy and 3D like in appearance.

    At the earliest possible time I recommend that you replace the GreyHawk with a Studiotek 130. I see that your room is 7ft wide, if possible get a larger screen than the current 5ft (approx) screen you have at the moment. 6 to 7 wide foot would mean that you can move your PJ further back thereby killing a few birds with one stone.
    As you can't go bigger than 7ft, may I suggest one more thing. Un-filtered Barco's like the 1209, with or without calibration, do indeed have orangey reds. To get more accurate colours, you need to have a set of colour filters installed. If Roland doesn't do them, get in touch with either Phil from TAW or Curt Palme from AVS. They sell colour filters which come in a set of two and are not expensive at all.
    You will lose a small percentage of light output, 10-15% but this is no problem with the combination of the big 1209 and a limited screen size.

    A Studiotek 130 will give you superb colour uniformity, beautiful whites and more vibrant colours. I'd say the overall improvement in realism will be huge.

    Welcome to the world of CRT.

    Eric
     
  7. Paul D

    Paul D
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    Hi Jeff...

    Going from Bulb to CRT does take some adjustment, as it's not "all" better etc, but overall gives a great image.

    The first thing that will bug you is the "apparent" softer picture. This is true to some extent, but is manly down to the totally smooth nature of the CRT picture. It is true that CRT gives you a near "film like" experience, but if you hanker for false "edge" induced sharpness, try running at a low resolution. The wide gaps between the scan lines give the impression of sharpness!(but NOT recommended!!!).

    I found "bright" scenes tend to show softer, almost bleached as the light bounces around between the CRT face and lense etc. Infact this is the only downside i have found with CRT, but liquid coupled CRTs are better at reducing this.

    I now keep the room at around 22'C, this helps due to the large lenses involved(big lense take a while to heat up!). When Roland visited the room was at least 30'C! and the sharpness only fully returned when the room reached 30'C again!.
    So once the room temp is stablised, do a physical focus on the lenses (I used the wife on the lenses, while i stood an inch from the screen with a "grid" showing etc), then a electrical focus and then convergence. I found this helped stop the convergence from drifting and keeps the focus spot on. Each memory block needs a new electrical focus and convergence etc.

    I installed a "Through the wall" aircon unit from B&Q (£99! should have been about £250) and have found it to be well capable of chilling the room right down. In winter i used a small room heater etc.

    I'm sure Roland gets some sort of sadistic pleasure while you await his second visit! :devil: .
    Only he knows how much better the picture will be, but leaves on the first day telling you how the picture is nearly perfect, yet calls back again and totally transforms it!.

    He will perform his little piece of magic with his laptop and some strange Pixie dust!.

    So you will have to await this moment, as the picture and any remaining niggles can be adjusted out.
    It will be then you realise all the your settings with the HTPC will need re-adjusting!.

    I'm awaiting the second part of my fan mod at the moment, but to be honest i'm not bothered by a bit of fan noise anyway. This part 1 of the mod has changed the pitch and rattles from the fans, and slightly reduced the noise.

    Believe me when i tell you that you will never stop tweaking your new CRT, even when your new tubes have bedded in!. This is due to the fact that just when you think you have got the most out of it, you read something on this and AVS forums and away you go again...:D

    I have had a love hate relationship with all my projectors, some days they seem stunning, others i see all their faults. At the moment i'm back in love and the picture is sharp and stunning, but this "love" is mainly due to getting my ATI8500 card working without the gamma problem etc. The HTPC really does give me a sharper/detailed and more saturated picture than my Pioneer/QSE combo.

    Post back with your "second visit" news...
     
  8. Jeff

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    Thanks guys, I had another play with the colours and got them a bit closer to what I'm expecting. I watched the Untouchables followed by a bit of Dinosaur and The Rock CC. They all looked pretty good, Dinosaur produced one of the best pictures I have ever seen, the scene where the egg is discovered and opens looks stunning. Perfect CRT material?.

    Eric, I know what you are saying about the Grayhawk, but what I'm seeing certainly isn't dull. Bare in mind that I have one of the smallest screens and brightest CRT projects you are likely to see. I'm probably getting more ftl than most people with CRTs.

    The issue with Grayhawk colour shift and calibration I think is a bit of a red herring. With the DLP I found the Grayhawk to be very neutral. The issue here is that the CRT is too close to the screen in order to create a uniform white and this shows up quite well on a grey scale pattern. This makes calibration a real pig. I could go down the road of getting a larger screen (probably Studiotek) and moving the projector further back, but I've had enough messing about and making changes, I just want a working home cinema that I can start to enjoy. Certainly I see the noise and heat as greater priorities right now.

    Jaws tonight. :)
     
  9. larsan

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    What advantages does the HD10L lenses have over the 300's?
     
  10. tryingtimes

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    Strangely enough Jaws was the first film I had people round to see BEFORE Roland had come back to recalibrate.
    It was the first time I'd seen it on anything bigger than 29" and it was fantastic.

    Spoiler warning. Just in case you're the only person on the planet not to have seen it - don't read below

    The atmosphere of his house when they're just sitting down to breakfast was the bit that surprised me. The power of the big screen really brought this out. Another good scene to benefit was the confused and panic inducing crowd in the water scene. Very tense. The other surprising improvement came the scar competition in the boat. Brilliant stuff!

    I hope Minority Report is half as good

    Enjoy
     
  11. Roland @ B4

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    The Hd10 is designed for small screen projection mainly rear. the HD300 is a more general purpose lens.

    For the number of lines a 9 inch CRT can produce there is not a lot of differnce in on screen resolution.
     
  12. larsan

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    So the difference in PQ would not be noticeable?

    If that's the case I'd be willing to make an exchange if it is interesting?

    My HD10's are in great shape...
     
  13. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
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    Interesting - just what are you seeing Jeff? My uniformity problem is due to me being able to see the tubes colours themselves reflected back from the screen i.e. the left hand side of the screen has more blue and the right hand side more red corresponding to the location of the tubes on the projector (does this make sense?). Its not a major issue but makes equal colour calibration difficult if not impossible on certain parts of the screen. A pain more than anything else. Is this what you are seeing? One possible solution is a lower gain screen perhaps (mines is 1.3).
    Regards,
    Paul

    Oops, forgot to mention, turning down the contrast helps but you lose some picture impact. I know Barco have a gizmo that can turn down the contrast on each tube individually (Roland?), but not sure if its worth getting unless the problem is real bad (or you have ran out of options.
     
  14. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Paul,

    That is exactly what I'm seeing, my screen gain is 0.95. What size screen do you have?
     
  15. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    Perhaps we don't do enough of this.

    I'm still strugling in my mind about the gray hawk. I know we had to turn the contrast down due to the pain that was caused by such a bright image.
     
  16. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Uniformity problems can be caused by the screen material's ability to reflect all of the visible spectrum accurately and also with the installation of the projector. The more angled in the blue and red guns (ie smaller the projected image) the more you are likely to get these issues. Also if the beamspot focus is not tight all the way across the tube face I'd expect more phosphor to be illuminated resulting in higher light ouput at different parts of the image on the tube face. EMF units like the 1209 have zone adjustments for astig and focus to deal with these issues usually.

    I'd think in Jeff's case it's both of these combining. He's got a pretty small screen I think at the limits of how small a 1209 can go.

    Gordon
     
  17. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
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    Jeff,
    Mines is an 8ft wide 16:9 screen. I can see the red tube more than the blue. The problem is permanently there, panning shots in particular highlight the problem, you can see the slight change in colour say on a white wall or faces (anything thats light coloured). On my screen its about a foot wide patch roughly centre-right but the position changes depending on where you sit.

    Like I said, its a pain rather than a problem (especially as no-one else sees it unless you point it out to them and even then...!). I changed the angle of the CRT and was able to move the patch and reduce it slightly but not totally eliminate it. I'm fairly sure that its a problem that few people actually see - having trawled AVS for more info, its not mentioned a lot and when it is, it seems its "normal" and not usually noticed.

    There is a possible connection here - I too am an ex LCD man, and, funnily enough, I too thought that reds were a bit orangy when I first got the Barco. Maybe moving from LCD to CRT means that we are maybe more able to spot things in a CRT that were not present on LCD (apart from a better picture of course!) and be picky about things that perhaps we otherwise wouldn't have noticed.

    As you already have a low-gain screen, try reducing the contrast and see if that helps (but it will cause some loss of pq). You should be able to reduce the patch somewhat by using the contrast and getting as good a colour calibration as you can but I don't think it can be entirely got rid of as what we are seeing is also the same thing that produces the picture so any changes made to reduce the problem will likely cause the picture to be somewhat less than 100% perfect.

    As Roland says, maybe a bit of settling in is required first but I suspect that this sort of thing is down to the individual (a bit like DLP rainbows) you either see it or you don't. Having good eyesight can be a curse I tell you!

    What do you think?
    Regards,
    Paul
     
  18. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
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    Gordon,
    Ok understood, the toeing-in of the tubes. So either a wider screen or possibly moving the projector a bit perhaps so that the toeing-in is reduced? (Assuming the electronics don't sort it out).
    Regards,
    Paul
     
  19. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
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    Good call Gordon! Just tried the Barco Lens programme for the 1209 - it says the minimum screen width for the HD300 lenses is 78.7 inches. Now, I think most of us feel that the Lens programme is a good indicator of CRT location but not perhaps entirely accurate but maybe in this instance its right and that the 64" screen Jeff is using and the minimum width of 78" indicated by the program is indeed not helping matters.

    Looks like a bigger screen Jeff may be the answer Jeff.
    Regards,
    Paul

    Edit - according to the Lens programme, the HD10L lenses should be fine.
     
  20. Jeff

    Jeff
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    You should have seen the Hitachi lcos projector, 70ftl! I needed to use sun screen lotion to watch a film.
     
  21. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Roland and I are aware of being out of spec, but the spec relates to the lenses rather than anything else. If you select the HT10L lens I'm back in spec. I'm sure a wider screen and changing the projector position would help, its not something I'm willing to do just yet, bigger fish to fry...
     
  22. larsan

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    Jeff, did you see my proposal?
     
  23. Boris Blank

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    Jeff,
    Understood.
    Regards,
    Paul
     
  24. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Hi Larsen,

    It's certainly something to think about, if Roland thinks its a good idea I might be game.

    Thanks,

    Jeff
     
  25. larsan

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    Let me know :)
     
  26. Roland @ B4

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    I think you will find that the Grayhawk is quite a high gain screen (ie the beads of glass or what ever it is they use to reflect light) This is then brought down by the relativley low reflectance of the gray background. If the same coating was used on a white material I wonder what it would be then.

    I am aware how close (literally) we sailed for the install on m HD 300 I tried the set up here first and confirmed the projector would do it.

    As regards the lens swap let me check with Barco first, the C element could be different.

    I've always been so unimpressed with Red from an LCD/DLP so something is not right.

    Paul the thing you are talking about is Contrast Modualtion which used to be a big hit with Electrohome users. It effectivly drops the light output across the screen to prvent hot spotting. I've not seen it done in home cinema but it is a way round. Cost was about £600 last time I looked, more a point for rear projection though.

    The Horizontal keystone Introduces a 1mm top and bottoms size differnce on red and green on the phosphor which the 1209s can easily deal with.
     
  27. Boris Blank

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    Well, after corresponding this thread, I went home and finally all but got rid of the offending patch. Basically I turned down the red bias and cut-off slightly, reduced brightness and contrast by a couple of points and now I can hardly see the patch. Picture is a bit darker than I would prefer but I suspect I've been running it brighter than I should have anyway and just need to get used to the new settings but otherwise I'm happy. Been fiddling with the CRT on and off for the past couple of weeks and this was the last thing to be tackled. I can still see the patch if I really look for it but its certainly vastly reduced from what it was before, looks like I made the problem worse than it actually was when playing around with the colours and settings a while back and didn't realise it.

    Watched Deep Blue Sea again afterwards - really like this movie.

    Anyway, hope your problem gets resolved Jeff.
    Regards,
    Paul
     
  28. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Paul,

    I always thought the beep blue sea sharks looked a bit fake compared to Jaws. :) Glad you fixed your patch problem.


    Cheers,

    Jeff
     
  29. Rob.Screene

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    Hi Jeff.
    Glad you got yourself that monster!

    Would it make sense to try some 12mm MDF painted with matt white, like you saw at my place?

    I would have thought the tin of pain a new matt roller and two 7ft wide 16:9 sheets would come to less than £30. I wonder if B&Q online deliver?

    The second sheet is to ensure to get a totally unmarked surface somwhere as they will be shipped together!

    I have created a 6mm MDF duct 45degrees up from the back of the 808s into the loft cavity. It really helps with stopping the room getting warm and the projector definitely runs cooler because it's not having to run in the hottest part of a hot room.

    The room generally is 20-21 degrees even on a hot day, ending-up about 25-27 degrees (absolute max) after warming the projector for a few hours, then 3 people watching a film for 2 hours. If I go for only a 30mins warm-up, it ends up about 23 degrees in there. It makes the Barco into a great air extractor to boot!

    regards,
    Rob.
     
  30. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Rob,

    I did take one idea from your room, if I remember correctly you had Ikea poang chairs, I bought a couple of them for my room on Sunday. I'm still thinking what to do about the heat, I'm not sure how much space I have between the ceiling and the roof, not much I guess.
     
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