First Time Buyer - Mid Range Speakers

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Speakers' started by pmmangan, Mar 15, 2019.

  1. pmmangan

    pmmangan
    Novice Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi All,
    First time poster, thank you in advance for your patience and insight.
    I recently lost my JBL 4311B speakers in a fire and, as it turns out, they're insured for much more than they're worth. Without getting into many details, I now have a ~$6k budget for a pair of speakers (speakers only, no other components). This price range is far above anything I've looked at or listened to so I'm looking for general advice and direction on what to look at.
    Regarding the other components in my setup, they'll all need to be replaced but I won't have nearly a similar budget for any of those pieces as I will for the speakers. Think $1-2k for everything.
    I realize it's uncommon to combine components in this range with speakers in that range but these are my parameters and they won't change.
    I listen to Jazz, Blues, and Hip-Hop mostly.
    I'd like speakers that will hold or grow in value over time. As such, I'd lean towards something vintage as secondary markets are more established rather than gamble on a pair of Cornwall III's or something. Just an idea, I'm willing to be corrected.
    Thanks for your help.
     
  2. ashenfie

    ashenfie
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    1,856
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    116
    Location:
    Northampton
    Ratings:
    +551
    This is uk based site and the information might not be the the best for you region.

    Sorry to hear about your fire and hope you find what your looking for.

    6k may sound sound a lot of money and will get you a great value set of speakers. While the definition of high end might not be considered correct by many on this site you look at what considered mid range.

    Good luck with your search.
     
  3. pmmangan

    pmmangan
    Novice Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks for the response, ashenfie - updated title per your suggestion
    This is mostly uncharted territory for me so general advice is all I'm looking for. Hopefully looking for aged speakers will mean that their availability won't be as closely tied to their country of manufacture.
    Thanks for your help.
     
  4. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    22,147
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,167
    These are you speakers? 12" 3-way?

    JBL 4311 - Manual - Loudspeaker System - HiFi Engine

    JBL is making speakers like this again, though on the expensive side.

    Bookshelf Loudspeakers - JBL Synthesis

    Also, why specifically £6000 for speakers and £2000 for electronics, why not just £8000 for a complete system?

    And what would that system include - CD Player, Network Player, DAC, Turntable, Amp/Receiver, other...?

    You might want to consider the Klipsch Forte-III (£3990/pr) which have been getting very positive reviews, and are well under your budget -

    Klipsch Heritage Forte III Speakers (Pair) - AudioAffair.co.uk

    Heritage Forte III Speakers | Klipsch

    That would leave you with about £4000 for other aspects of the system.

    I would speculate -

    £500 to £1000 = CD Player
    £500 to £1500 = Network Player
    £500 to £1000 = Turntable
    £500 to £2000 = Amp/Receiver

    Then we come to Power and Features. Are they any specific features that the Amp must have, and any additional feature that it would be nice for the Amp to have?

    Just a suggestion -

    £4000/pr = Klipsch Forte-III Speakers
    £1400/ea = Rotel RA-1572 Amp, 120w/ch, DAC
    £_500/ea = Rotel CD14 CD Player*
    £_700/ea = Cambridge CXN Network Player
    £_950/ea = Project Classic Turntable
    -----------------------------------
    £7550 = Total

    * Alternate - Rotel CD1572 = £845


    Again, just illustrating the possibilities. There are many other Amps/Speakers/Components to choose from.

    Rotel RA-1572 Integrated Amplifier
    Rotel CD14 CD Player
    Rotel RCD-1572 CD Player
    Cambridge Audio CXN V2 (Black)
    Project CLASSIC (Walnut)

    Again, it is not clear specifically what equipment you need in the system. So, just illustrating the possibilities. There are many other possible options.

    And, repeating myself, why £6000 for speakers and £2000 for Equipment, why not just £8000 for a complete system?

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  5. pmmangan

    pmmangan
    Novice Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Ratings:
    +0
    Yes, those were them. JBL 4311B I enjoyed them a lot and highly recommend them at the $5/600 range.

    This has to do with my insurance policy. Insurance allotted 6k to speakers so I stand to gain the most if I show them a bill of sale for the repurchase of speakers at an amount of 6k. Believe me, I would much rather spend that amount on an entire set up. This also means that I don't want to go below the 6k mark as I'd be leaving money on the table.

    Because the speakers are my starting point, I'll have to work backwards in buying the rest of the components.
    My strategy for the purchase is to look vintage as it's my perception that vintage equipment holds it's value better than new (correct me if I'm wrong).
    I will definitely find some contemporary JBLs to listen to; I've had a great experience with JBL speakers in the past but I'm by no means married to the brand. I'd like to listen to a pair of JBL 4343s if anyone has any experience with that model.
    Luckily for me I'm in a musical city (Chicago) and there is a strong market for vintage audio equipment here.

    I'd love to hear more general ideas on what to look for in this range. Year ranges of given makes/models to look for/avoid. What to listen for when demoing. Like I said, this is all uncharted territory for me.

    Thanks for your help.
     
  6. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    22,147
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,167
    CHICAGO - I would suggest you check out MUSIC DIRECT which is very near by -

    Music Direct | Vinyl Records, Turntables, High End Audio Equipment & Accessories

    Again, we would need a list of equipment to be include in the $2000, and any special features you might need.

    Integrated Amp | Amplification | - Music Direct

    Turntables | - Music Direct

    Speakers | - Music Direct

    Disc Player | - Music Direct

    Network Player | - Music Direct

    FOCAL 948 (2x8") are about $5000/pr, and a very clear and detailed speaker -

    Focal - Aria 948 Tower Speakers

    Not exactly the Old School Monkey Coffin look though.

    In JBL, these speaker really appeal to me in the Old School Style, and are very close to your budget, and probably an improvement over your original speakers -

    JBL 4429 3-Way Speaker, 12", Horn Mid/High - $5000/pair -

    JBL - 4429 Bookshelf Speakers (Pair)

    All JBL Speakers -

    https://www.musicdirect.com/equipment/speakers?category=Speakers&brand=Jbl&sort=popularity|DESC&page=1&pagesize=24&c1=tab-products&c2=grid

    Of the JBL Speakers in this Old School Big-Box style, the 4429 are probably the best of the lot.

    They also have the Klipsch Forte-III which really are good speakers.

    Klipsch Forte-III 3-Way, Horn Mid/High, 12" w/15" Passive - $3600/pair -

    Klipsch - Forte III Tower Speakers (Pair)

    Your goal is not to consume every penny, but rather to get speaker that satisfy you and your requirements.

    Again, to break down the budget, we need a list of equipment in the Electronics budget.

    If I assume Amp, CD Player, and Turntable, then that breaks down to about $667 per component.

    This is a very good Yamaha Amp, improved 32bit DAC, USB-PC, 100w/ch -

    Yamaha AS801 Integrated w/DAC, 100w/ch - $899 -

    Yamaha - A-S801 Integrated Amp | Shop Music Direct

    A-S801 - Overview - Yamaha - United States

    But if you want a Receiver that does everything, then consider this -

    Yamaha RN803 Network Receiver, 100w/ch, Network Streaming, Full Bass Management, Room EQ, etc... - $750 -

    Yamaha R-N803

    R-N803 Network Stereo Receiver - Overview - Yamaha - United States

    Music Direct
    1811 W Bryn Mawr Ave
    Chicago, IL 60660
    Phone: 1-312-433-0200


    Music Direct > Contact Us

    Also, talk to the Insurance Company, and see if you can get them to bundle the insurance claim and let you pick the equipment and speakers you want. If they will and you get the JBL 4429, that would leave up with near $3000 for the rest of the equipment.

    As you can see, people here can be very helpful, but you should know that this is primarily a UK/EU Forum.

    For USA/North-America specific forums, try AVS Forum in the US -

    AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

    You probably want to post in AVSForum - Audio - 2-Channel -

    2-Channel Audio - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

    Or in AVSForum - Audio - Speakers -

    Speakers - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  7. pmmangan

    pmmangan
    Novice Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Ratings:
    +0
    I know Music Direct very well, they stock the best new equipment in Chicago and are excellent to deal with, as I have in the past.

    Actually, in this instance, my goal IS to consume every penny. If I buy a pair of $5000 speakers, I will pay the same out-of-pocket as I would if I buy a pair of $6000 speakers. This is due to the way my insurance policy handles reimbursements.
    I definitely understand finding a purchase that meets my needs but I'm in a very unique situation that might require a slightly different approach.

    My strategy here is to start by finding the best speakers that I can for my price. Once I find them, I will build the rest of the system around them. I'd love to hear suggestions if anyone thinks of a better approach. This is a unique situation.
     
  8. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    22,147
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,167
    You can buy $6000 speakers that you don't like just to consumer every penny, or you can spend $4000 to $5000 on speakers that you really do like, and not spend every penny.

    Which makes the most sense?

    Consider getting the dealer to include Speaker Wire in the bill for the JBL 4429, because, after all, your existing speaker wire did burn up.

    Audioquest CV-8 - (6ft pair = $700/pr) - (8ft pair - $800/pr) - (10ft = $900/pr) -

    Audioquest - CV-8 Full-Range Speaker Cables (Pr) | Shop Music Direct

    In reality, the Audioquest Type-4 are probably more than you need for considerably less money -

    Audioquest Type-4 - 10ft - $280/pair -

    AUDIOQUEST - TYPE 4 SPEAKER CABLES (PR) | Shop Music Direct

    But the insurance agent doesn't need to know that.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  9. pmmangan

    pmmangan
    Novice Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Ratings:
    +0
    You're right, it wouldn't make any sense to buy something I don't like. I will buy something that I like. However, I don't get to keep the difference if I spend less than $6k so it makes the most sense for me to find speakers that cost this much, and then out of those speakers find the ones I like the most. If there is a pair that costs less that I like more, I can sell the ones I have for $6k and get different ones. But step one is to spend $6k on speakers.

    I'm looking for general advice on speakers in this price range as I don't have any experience with this level of hi-fi.
    My previous pair was JBL 4311Bs which I liked very much. I also had a pair of Onkyo Radian IIIs which weren't as strong on the low end but still very pretty sounding.

    Thanks for your help.
     
  10. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    22,147
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,167
    I can understand, but you want the best speakers you can afford given the insurance budget THAT YOU ACTUALLY LIKE, that do what you need done, and that will fit into your space.

    It is not just about the budget, it is more so about what you can functionally use, and what does the job that you need done.

    And you need to consider if you want to continue with old-school big-box Monkey Coffins or if you are willing to change to a newer more modern Tower type speakers.

    Go to Music Direct - Equipment - Tower Speakers and sort by lowest-to-highest, and see if you can find $6000/pr speakers, then see if you actually like those speakers.

    Revel - F208 Tower Speakers (Pair)

    Klipsch - Special Edition Cornwall III Tower Speakers (Pair)

    Focal - Electra 1038 Be Tower Speakers (Pair)

    One of the above REVEL F208 (2x8") are $5000/pr same as the JBL 4429, but those are very good speakers; highly rated. Not Monkey Coffins, but still highly rated speakers.

    The Klipsch Cornwall-III Special Edition (15", Horn Mid/High) are about $600 over budget, nice speakers, but I think I would rather have the Forte-III, though it would pay to listen to both before you buy.

    The FOCAL Electra 1038Be would be stunningly clear speakers, but they are pushing $7000/pr.

    I think you will have a hard time finding a speaker at precisely $5999/pr, and if you do ... is it a speaker you actually want?

    If you like the Big-Box speakers and want to continue, then the Klipsch Forte-III ($4000/pr), Klipsch Cornwall-III ($6600/pr), and the JBL 4429 ($5000/pr) are probably your best bets in this price range.

    If not, then there are a range of TOWER style speakers to consider - FOCAL Aria 948 ($5000/pr), Focal Electra 1038 ($7000/pr), Revel F208 ($5000/pr), and perhaps a few others from other dealers.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  11. pmmangan

    pmmangan
    Novice Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Ratings:
    +0
    I don't have a space, it burned down with the speakers.
    I'm looking for help because I've found that there are so many options, not because there are so few.

    What type of differences should I expect between the old-school box type speakers and the tower type? My old Onkyo's were towers and they were weaker on the low end than the JBLs

    Why do you prefer the Forte III over the Cornwall III?
    Is there anything to be said about buying a "special edition" speaker with limited production such as the Cornwall?

    If I don't buy brand new, what vintage models would be good to look at in this price range?
    This is where the JBL 4343 idea came from. These are around $6500 in Chicago. Anyone with experience with these?
     
  12. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    22,147
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,167
    Understood, in a sense the Insurance will pay the invoice for the new speakers. But you still want to focus on speakers you actually want.

    Not quite sure what you are saying. If you buy $6000 speakers, don't like them, and have to resell them, you are going to have to take a loss on the speakers. So, if you are going to lose $1000 on the sale, assuming you can actually find a buyer in that price range, you might as well have bought $5000 speakers that you are actually going to be satisfied with.

    You said yourself that the Insurance probably way over valuated your old speakers, so don't be greedy. Find speakers that sound good, and are the equal or better of your previous speakers, and be satisfied.

    This buy and resell is adding a layer of complication that you really don't want or need.

    Generally speaking, in this price range, they are ALL good speakers, the question is which best suits your current circumstance and listening taste. Both the Monkey Coffin and the Tower Speakers I listed are all top rated in their price class.

    Of those listed, oddly, the JBL 4429 have the least deep bass response, but I think people are a bit too obsessed with bass depth. There is far more to the quality of sound than how deep the bass goes. I'm sure the 4429 make up for it in the impression of weight from the 12" drivers and from the clarity of the Horn Mid/High.

    All the reviews I've read and heard on the Klipsch Forte-III are very impressive. These are very old-school with 12" bass drivers and a rear passive 15" driver. I would expect good weight and clarity form these speakers.

    Klipsch Cornwall (Special Edition in this case) is a long standing speaker in the Klipsch family, and I would expect very good performance from it. This is about $600 over budget, but that shouldn't be a deal breaker. 15" bass drivers. 34hz bass depth, Horn Mid/High.

    Klipsch Cornwall-III Special Editions - $6600/pr -


    Klipsch - Special Edition Cornwall III Tower Speakers (Pair)

    Klipsch Cornwall-II Standard Edition - $4400/pr -


    Klipsch - Cornwall III Tower Speakers (Pair)

    These and the Forte-III are very high out put speakers, topping out at an astronomical 120db, with near 100dB Sensitivity. These absolutely do not take monster amps to drive them. Just about any amp of 50w/ch or more should drive them as loud as you can stand them.

    That said, the suggested Tower speakers are also very good. I would dearly love even the modest FOCAL 936/948. Based on the Focals I've heard, the speaker should be amazingly clear and detailed with good presence. I heard the older 836 and the music just hung in the air disembodied from any sense of Speakers or Equipment, and the bass, while only modestly deep, rendered the instrument very life like. Bass Guitar sounded like Bass Guitar an not like a generic non-specific bass drone. Very impressive.

    I would expect the Focal Electra 1039Be to be even better, but they are about $1000 over budget, and only available in Black. Still, I would expect them to be breathtaking.

    There is a review on the REVAL Performa3 F208 in Stereophile Magazine on-line, and the reviewer classified the speakers as his new Reference Standard in this price range.

    In the price class you are in, all the speakers are good, so it becomes a matter of which best suits your personal listening preferences and style.

    But DO suit your personal listening preference and style rather than trying to consume all the insurance companies money.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  13. DT79

    DT79
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    487
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings:
    +259
    If you have far more to spend on your speakers than any other part of the system then that’s crying out for you to get a pair of active speakers, leaving you with less ‘rest of the system’ to buy. Active speakers come in many flavours from a system with preamp and DAC built in that you just connect sources to, or stream to, to the other end of the scale where they speaker cabinets only have the power amps built into them and you feed them from an external preamp (or source with variable volume output).
     
  14. pmmangan

    pmmangan
    Novice Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Ratings:
    +0
    This is why I thought looking at vintage speakers would be a better move since I would buy them at their market value rather than MSRP

    This is interesting, I didn't know this was an option. I would be interested to hear what people think of speakers that have on-board power amps. I've seen this only in Home-Theater subwoofer setups but never really thought about it in terms of stereo for music.
     
  15. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    22,147
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,167
    So, you are going to live in the street with $6000 speakers? Sorry, just kidding. You must have a place even if it is temporary. Within reason, the speakers have to fit the space. Though I suspect at some point in the future, you will move into a newer more permanent space. That is the space you should be considering.

    The way you narrow the options is by focusing on the realistic budget, the space the speakers will be in, and specifically the type of sound you want from the Speakers.

    The same with amps, what is it you want the Amp to do? I gave a couple of examples, the Yamaha AS801 is a simple Integrated Amp with DAC. The Yamaha RN803 is a very full features amp with radio, Network Streaming, DAC, Room EQ, and Full Bass Management, both with 100w/ch.

    There are also very minimalist amps that are essentially a Volume Control and Source Selector switch, and that is it. You can build one of these up to have every feature you could imagine, but plan on spending considerably more money -

    Creek - Evolution Evo 50A v2 Integrated Amp | Shop Music Direct

    In the considerable quality of speakers being discussed, I would suspect the difference is aesthetics. The Tower speakers are tall and narrow which makes them less visually obtrusive in most home environments. The Monkey Coffins are wider and have the aesthetic appeal of old-school speakers. Today, for most, that old-school style just isn't practice.

    Myself, I have both. I have a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 9.6 Towers, and a pair of DIY 12" 3-way monkey coffins. I only use the Towers for music, but for movies, I use both, and it really brings both the thunder and lightning to movie sound tracks.

    Generally for aesthetic and nostalgic reason. The Cornwall Special Edition probably have better fit and finish, and have natural exotic wood finish. But there is only about a $800 difference between the 15" Cornwall Standard and the 12" Forte-III standard, that more or less puts them in the same class of speakers. I suspect the difference in price is between the 12" and 15" bass drivers.

    So, the appeal of the Forte-III is a combination of realistic budget, and general aesthetics.

    There is also a Special Edition of the Forte-III which is about $3800/pr (California Walnut). Again, somewhat exotic woods are used in the cabinet. The Cornwall-III again uses special Rosewood, I believe, from India. And it may have a bit more attention to fit and finish details. I suspect for both the differences are mostly cosmetic.

    With this budget, and the quality of speakers available to you, I'm not sure why you would consider USED. You certainly can, your life, your money. But the speakers I've laid out are all stunning speakers, plus no wear and tear, full dealer support, and full manufacturer's warranty. Those items have some value.

    If you look at the JBL 4343, there are new Bookshelf from JBL that very closely resemble it, that cost substantially less than $6500/pr. In fact the JBL 4429 is probably the top of the line in this style speaker, and it sells NEW for $5000/pr.

    JBL 4343 -

    JBL 4343 - Google Search

    I would take the new Mid/High Horn Drivers over the Cone Mid/High any day.

    Bookshelf Loudspeakers - JBL Synthesis

    4429 - JBL Synthesis

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  16. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    22,147
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,167
    RE: Active Speakers -

    Sorry for using a UK Link but it was fastest. These DALI Callistor 6 (£3200/pr) speakers are Active Towers -

    DALI Callisto 6 C Black Active Floorstanding Speakers (Pair) - Floorstanding Speakers - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

    But, while very good and very high in the Dali Line up, there are other Dali Passive speakers that could be considered (these are available in the USA, you just have to track them down).

    DALI Opticon 8 Black Ash Floorstanding Speakers (Pair) - Floorstanding Speakers - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

    DALI Rubicon 8 Walnut Floorstanding Speakers (Pair) - Floorstanding Speakers - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

    I think active speakers just complicates matters. Though I can see the appeal. Likely you would still need a somewhat expensive Pre-Amp to drive them.

    Parasound Halo P6 2.1 Pre-Amp with Bass Management - $1500 -

    Parasound Halo P6 2.1 Channel Preamplifier & DAC-Audio Advisor

    Most Studio Monitors/Active Speakers are going to be bookshelf speakers, and could be enhanced with the addition of Subwoofer(s). This is viable, but I think to complex for your needs, but ultimately that is your decision to make.

    For example the Dynaudo Core 59 are 9" 3-way Active Studio speakers with response down to 42hz -

    Core 59

    These are about $3000 - EACH -

    Dynaudio Core 59 Studio Monitor

    Good speakers, I'm just not sure this is good value.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  17. pmmangan

    pmmangan
    Novice Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Ratings:
    +0
    DIY as in you built them yourself? Where might I look for advice on that? This would be a totally separate project for me. It sounds like a ton of fun.

    Budget established. Space unknown. Sound: I listen to a lot of Jazz, Blues, and Hip-Hop. So I think low end clarity is something to look for. That's why I preferred my 4311Bs over my Radian IIIs. I don't blast my music often (except for when I do), so I don't think I'm in need of huge power; clarity and instrumental differentiation are what I'm after.
     
  18. pmmangan

    pmmangan
    Novice Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Ratings:
    +0
    Why?
    It's my understanding that horns are a lot harder to deal with than cones both in manufacturing and in placement. Especially in mid-range frequencies. I'd like to compare the JBL 4429 with the L100
     
  19. DT79

    DT79
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    487
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings:
    +259
    Active speakers are pound for pound (or dollar for dollar) better than a separate amp and passive speakers because an active crossover is inherently superior to a passive one and each power amp can be tailored to the demands of the speaker driver that it will spend its whole life attached to.
     
  20. lindsayt

    lindsayt
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2011
    Messages:
    323
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings:
    +54
    Are you able to buy another pair of 4311's and keep the $5500 in change? If so that would be a great solution.

    Otherwise you could buy another pair of classic US speakers worth $6000. And either keep them or sell them and buy another pair of 4311's.

    There's a lot to be said for buying a cherry picked pair of classic US speakers. They sound great. Better than every modern active speaker I've come across this side of $80,000.


    JBL, Altec, EV, Urei all made some great speakers in the 1950's to 1980's. For some reason, JBL seem to attract relative higher prices for their best classic speakers. When buying classic speakers it's better to be on the look-out for a variety of makes and models and to buy whatever you see a great deal on first.

    The real afficionadoes come up with Frankenstein speakers. The bass drivers and bins from 1 classic speaker, the midrange units from another, the tweeters from another.

    Using a classic US speaker with a $100 amp and a $100 CD player is fine. You can get great sounding amps and CD players for that money. And that genre of speakers tends to be highly efficient and easy to drive, which makes the amplifier's life very easy.

    BTW, DT79's statements on active vs passive crossovers are complete and utter nonsense. To the extent that I can put on a demonstration any time to completely debunk the myth that actives are better.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  21. pmmangan

    pmmangan
    Novice Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Ratings:
    +0
    This is kind of what I'm driving at. If I search real hard I might find a pair of JBL L300s in nice original condition for $6500-7000 and I have a hard time imagining that any new speaker would be a ton better than that. Plus they don't lose 1/4 of their value once I plug them in.
    I know speaker performance is very subject to an array of different factors but can anyone really say that that wouldn't be worth it regardless?
    I've just never actually been in the market for speakers like this. Does anyone have some general buying advice? or even better, specific experience with something that fits my criteria?
    Many great suggestions from BlueWizard thus far, thank you very much
     
  22. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    22,147
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,167
    My DIY 12" 3-Way Speakers -

    Santana: Yamaha RX797+DIY 12"...


    Originally build in 1978, rebuilt into present form in 1983/84, modified in 2006.


    My £1000/pr Tower Speakers - (same song) -

    Santana: Yamaha RX797+Diamond 9.6+ Harmon...


    As to where you can get more information -

    DIYAudio - Loudspeakers - Multiway -

    Multi-Way - diyAudio

    I think any of the suggested speakers (big box or towers) will give you that.

    Repeating myself multiple times -

    We would need a list of equipment to be include in that $2000 for electronics, and any special features you might need?

    We can't possible break that budget down and make recommendations until we get a response on this issue.


    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  23. DT79

    DT79
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    487
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings:
    +259
    Lindsayt, surely even you can’t deny that with an enforced budget split $2k for electronics and $6K for speakers, active speakers are highly likely to be the route for the best end result?

    I have no agenda here. I’m not saying nor have ever said that systems based around active speakers are always better in all circumstances. I’ve recently moved from active speakers to an amp & passive myself. But with that budget split, come on, at least admit it’s a very sensible option.
     
  24. lindsayt

    lindsayt
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2011
    Messages:
    323
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings:
    +54
    In the context of this thread, your advice to look at active speakers is totally off-topic.

    The OP wants speakers that will go up in value, not ones that will go down.

    Can you please name a single active speaker that will go up in value and not down?

    Also, the OP has owned and very much liked JBL 4311's. These are 91db efficient 8 ohm speakers. That's already getting into the territory where going active has minimal to no advantages and only disadvantages. If he goes to more expensive investment-type classic speakers (which makes a huge amount of sense) he will probably be looking at speakers that are more efficient and therefore an even easier load on the amplifier AND even less suitable to active crossovers as a result.

    $2k is an ample budget for digital source and amplification for the vast majority of classic, appreciating $500 to $6000 US speakers. Especially if he's looking at buying an appreciating digital source and amplification too!

    There are $100 CD players (Philips TDA 1549 based ones) and circa $100 amplifiers (for example lower powered ex-cinema type amps) that will not hold back the sound of $6000 classic higher efficiency US speakers in any significant way. They will only hold it back in slight, cherry on the top ways. The sort of ways that would leave any sensible person thinking "Why spend any more?"

    At last year's Owston event there was a DIY'd speaker with £3000 worth of high efficiency drivers in it. From a design point of view these speakers shared quite a lot of similarities with classic US speakers. It was played with a run of the mill c£100 used CD player and a £200 (brand new) NVA A20. This combination sounded fantastic! World class.

    It is a complete myth that $multi thousand world class speakers should be paired with $multi thousand digital sources and amplification.

    A cherry-picked pair of classic US speakers for $6000 or less (in some cases a lot less down to $500 or less) with the right $100 CD player and $100 amplifier will sound better than EVERY active speaker I've heard costing less than $50,000. They might even sound better than the $100,000 active speakers (Linn Exakt 350a's) that I've heard and liked, but I'd want a back to back demo to establish that.

    So in answer to your question: no. Active speakers for $10,000 or less do not offer a better solution in terms of going up in value, nor in terms of best sound quality for the money spent.


    pmmangan, look at US ebay. Also look at other routes to buying classic audio equipment. Such as yard sales. Church, cinema, theatre hall, recording studio refurbishments. Like the story of someone that bought a pair of EV Patricians from a theatre refurbishment for $100. He had about $8000 in instant appreciation there. For deals like that it's worth buying them even if you have no intention of keeping them.

    The Audio Asylum forum has some sections that specialise in the sort of classic speakers that would be perfect for you. Do a search for posts on high efficiency speakers by Tom Brennan. He has a lot of useful experience in classic US speakers.
     
  25. pmmangan

    pmmangan
    Novice Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Ratings:
    +0
    I don't really have the answer you want. I'll need a CD player, TT, Pre amp (maybe), and power or integrated amp. Maybe it would be nice to have a radio but I don't really care about that. I don't have a network to integrate into, I don't do any streaming. My previous set up was shared with my home theater so I had:
    Marantz SR6003 as my power amp and home theater hub
    Pro-Ject Debut III
    Cambridge Audio pre amp (I don't recall the model but it was an entry level deal)
    Samsung 5 disk changer (generic garage sale find)
    JBL 4311B

    That's all I had and I never really wanted for more. Everything listed was accumulated for maybe $400 as they were all purchased second hand or found and fixed for free.

    You guys are giving me a ton of great information and I appreciate it greatly. As far as the other components are concerned, $2k is also above any price range I've dealt with (see above) so maybe we can just discuss where to spend money given these are the items to purchase. i.e. power amp gets 45% of the non-speaker budget, pre amp gets 20% etc. I'm not sure if that's helpful but like I said, I don't think I really have the answer you want.
     
  26. pmmangan

    pmmangan
    Novice Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thank you, this is how I found pretty much every piece of my previous set up, just in a much different price bracket. Luckily for me, I live in a strong secondary market for these classic American speakers and components. Unluckily for me, people around here tend to know what they have. But there are plenty of deals to be found if I can get a bit more info on what to look out for. I'll definitely look at Tom's posts, thanks for that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  27. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    22,147
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,167
    That's all I was looking for - Thanks.

    Um... you are on line now, how do you do that without a Network? Dial-Up? Directly in you DLS Modem? Directly into your Cable Box?

    A Combined Wired/Wireless Router doesn't cost that much. I'm still using an N600, which is more than enough to serve my needs.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/ASUS-RT-AC51U-Dual-Band-Wireless-Multifunctional/dp/B00XUDWDZE

    The advantage to Streaming is that you get access to a near Infinite Library of Music. You can pick any artist or genre, and start, and the service will play other artist of they same style. A great way to hear new music.

    Plus you get access to something like 34,000 Internet Radio Stations including broadcast stations like the BBC. I think the BBC has something like a dozen Internet Radio Channels.

    But, I can see not having a need for this. For myself, any streaming I do, I do while sitting at my computer. So, I don't really need any streaming devices. Plus if I felt I did need Streaming on my main system, my BluRay player also give me assess to Audio and Video Streaming Services. Though I don't really use the Audio aspect.

    The point is, for some Network Streaming is very nice, but for myself and others, not really necessary, and it can be added at any time in the future for a reasonable amount of money.


    Pre-Amp/Power-Amps are expensive. A single Pre-Amp can cost as much as an Integrated Amp. So for best and most effective use of your money, you should probably stick with an Integrated Amp

    So our equipment list is -

    - Turntable
    - CD Player
    - Amp/Receiver


    And of course Speakers from a separate budget.

    Generally I break a system down like this simply to establish a Starting Point, when it comes time to buy, you will certainly deviate from this, but it is a good starting point.

    1x to 1.5x = Turntable
    1x = CD Player
    1x = Amp/Receiver
    2x = Speaker Pair

    For electronics that is 3x, which from a $2000 budget breaks down like this -

    $667 = Turntable
    $667 = CD Player
    $667 = Amp/Receiver
    up to $6000/pr = Speakers

    You can certainly do well in that price range. Again, don't take these number too literally, they simply establish a starting perspective.

    I would suspect any amp in the roughly 60w/ch up to 120w/ch would do an excellent job even with the big speakers we previously disgust.

    You want to consider what specific feature want from each of these components.

    For example here is a Denon Auto-Start/Auto-Stop Turntable, that is a very handy feature to have, I greatly appreciate it on my Pioneer Turntable.

    Denon DP400 Auto Turntable w/Cartridge - $499 -

    Denon DP-400 (Black) Turntable

    But in a pure straight forward Manual Turntable, this one rates highly -

    Project Debut Carbon DC w/Ortofon 2M Red Cartridge - $399 -


    Pro-Ject - Debut Carbon DC Turntable | Shop Music Direct

    In manual turntables there are many to choose from -

    Music Hall MMF-2.3 Turntable - $599 -

    Music Hall - MMF-2.3 Turntable | Shop Music Direct

    And many more depending on the style you might want -

    https://www.guitarcenter.com/Audio-Technica/AT-LP5-Direct-Drive-Record-Player.gc

    https://www.guitarcenter.com/Audio-...-XP-Direct-Drive-Professional-DJ-Turntable.gc

    Audio-Technica AT-LP120-USB Turntable with USB - Silver

    And many more.

    Though not really necessary, I suspect we could brand match the Amp and CD Player. So here is an example just to illustrate -

    Yamaha CD-S300 CD Player - $299 -


    Yamaha - CD-S300 - CD Player

    Yamaha CD-S700 CD Player - $799 -

    Yamaha - CD-S700 CD Player

    Yamaha AS701 Integrated Amp w/DAC, 100w/ch - $799 -


    Yamaha - A-S701 Integrated Amp | Shop Music Direct

    Yamaha AS501 Integrated Amp w/DAC, 85w/ch - $549 -


    Yamaha - A-S501 Integrated Amp | Shop Music Direct

    So, using these examples -

    $499 = Denon DP400 (or other)
    $299 = Yamaha CDS300 CD Player
    $549 = Yamaha AS501 Integrated (85w/ch)
    -----------------------------
    $1347 = Total


    Alternately -

    $499 = Denon DP400 (or other)
    $299 = Yamaha CDS300 CD Player
    $799 = Yamaha AS701 Integrated (100w/ch)
    -----------------------------
    $1597 = Total


    Taking it one step higher -

    $499 = Denon DP400 (or other)
    $799 = Yamaha CDS700 CD Player
    $799 = Yamaha AS701 Integrated (100w/ch)
    -----------------------------
    $2097 = Total


    The last one is probably the best bet, while not the equal of $6000 speakers, it comes the closest in your price range ... in this brand.

    If at a later date you decide you want to add Streaming, while not free, it is not outrageously expensive -

    Yamaha WXC-50 Network Streamer - $350 -

    Yamaha - WXC-50 MusicCast Wireless Streaming Preamplifier

    Yamaha always come out best value, in your case with speaker grossly beyond your electronic budget, you want to maximize what you get for your electronics budget.

    I will make one more recommendation, that includes Yamaha's Top of the Consumer Line of Integrated amps. This AS801 is very much like the AS701, both with 100w/ch, but the AS801 as an improved 32b/348k DAC which also includes a USB-PC Input for direct connect to a computer.

    Yamaha AS801 Integrated w/Improved DAC, 100w/ch - $899 -


    Yamaha - A-S801 Integrated Amp | Shop Music Direct

    That takes you a big more over budget, but not excessively so -

    $499 = Denon DP400 (or other)
    $799 = Yamaha CDS700 CD Player
    $899 = Yamaha AS801 Integrated (100w/ch)
    -----------------------------
    $2197 = Total

    Of course you could scale back a bit on the Turntable and/or CD Player and bring yourself back under budget. As an example the Denon DP300 Auto-Turntable is about $420, and the Project Debut Carbon Manual is about $399.

    You could save a bundle by dropping from the CD-S700 down to the CD-S300 CD Player.

    And of course, the above are simply illustrations to give you some sense of what is possible in your price range.

    Back to speaker, I think you need to lose the idea of consuming every penny that the Insurance Company has allocated. Rather simply focus on speakers that will best serve you and your space.

    The Klipsch Forte-III ($3600/pr to $3800/pr SE) are killer speakers, and if you can get the insurance company to include speaker related accessories that most certainly burned up in the fire, you can drive the price up a few hundred.

    If you think your room will be able to handle it, the 15" Klipsch Cornwall-III or the Cornwall-III Special Edition also hit your budget pretty closely. I believe the standard Cornwall-III were about $4500/pr and again, you can probably drive the price up with accessories like Speaker Cable. Though difficult at this point, you will want to make certain these large 15" will actually function in your future room.

    Then we have the JBL 4429 at about $5000/pr. That is probably closest and I would speculate exceeds your original speakers. And while the speaker will have weight, it does not have the bass depth of the Klipsch or the Tower Speakers we discussed. Only you can determine whether that matters to you.

    As long as the subject of Tower Speakers has come up, give some consideration to Form Factor. Big Box speaker tend to be short and wide. Towers tend to be tall and thin. At this time in life, realistically, which of this will actually work better for you?

    I would call Music Direct in advance, and see if you can set up an appointment to hear this list of speakers on the Yamaha AS701/AS801 plus one other amp in your price range, and see which combination works best for you. Always best to make an appointment if you have very specific equipment combinations you want to hear.

    Also perhaps check with the Insurance Agent and see if you can include Speaker Cable, which you surely lost, in the Speaker purchase and $6000 budget.

    Unless you are able to haul these large speakers home in your car, there will probably be shipping costs plus taxes that will add to the cost of the speakers, so I would not target precisely $6000.

    Do keep us informed as to what you are considering, and what equipment you audition. Post like this don't just help you, but are also helpful to other reader who are following the thread with similar interests.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  28. pmmangan

    pmmangan
    Novice Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Ratings:
    +0
    Awesome so same speakers we've been talking about. Thank you.
    What factors would have caused you to say "no don't get the XXX speakers if you're gonna be listening to this set of components" Why did I have to bring the other components into the conversation? I'm not asking to be difficult, I just want to know what the thought process is and why I needed to consider them in the speaker purchase. You laid out a few detailed set ups for me and a greatly appreciate it but if they all work with the same three speaker suggestions then why are we talking about them? My question is regarding speakers.
    Again thank you for the suggestions. You're doing a lot of very considerate posting for the benefit of a stranger. I'd like the conversation to be about speakers and if there are factors that you need to know that will change your speaker suggestions than I'll absolutely consider them, but it doesn't look that way. It looks like those three speakers are the recommendation.

    Unfortunately I don't have the space defined yet, but honestly if I'm buying $6k speakers I'm either going to have them for the rest of my life and use them in all my spaces until I die, or I'm going to sell them along the way. I know space is important in an ideal situation, but I don't have that information. These speakers are going to have to work in different spaces throughout my ownership. If there's a great speaker that you know has a specific limitation regarding space that might be good information. "this speaker only sounds good a cavern with hyperbolic walls" ok cool, I won't buy those then.

    I'm not knocking your suggestions, I sincerely appreciate them. As far as the other components are concerned, I'm more than likely just going to keep my eyes peeled for what becomes available near me. In all likelihood these speakers will spend at least a little bit of time hooked up to a cheap Pioneer amp with a Sony DVD player playing CDs. I'm sorry if that makes anyone feel dirty.

    I will absolutely let you all know which speakers and components I land on and how they sound. Please keep the speaker suggestions coming! And please let me know your strategies for listening to and choosing speakers in this price range! I don't care what they look like. "Monkey Coffins" or towers, makes no difference to me; I've owned and enjoyed both.

    My budget is $6k, I listen to Jazz, Blues, and Hip-Hop mostly. My previous speakers were JBL 4311Bs and I liked them for their low end clarity. I don't need anything crazy powerful, I appreciate detail more than anything. Resale value is a factor so I lean toward vintage but I know there are a lot of great new options as well. I'm all ears!

    Thank you for your help.
     
  29. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    22,147
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,167
    I'm not sure of the purpose of this question, or series of questions. Thinking back, it seems we have -

    - Up to $6000 for speakers
    - Up to $2000 for Electronic Components

    I actually listed I think 6 or 7 Speaker all near your price range. I thought that is what you were looking for Speaker recommendations.

    You had what I call Big-Box or Monkey-Coffin Speakers, and the JBL and Klipsch are similar designs, and are near your budget, and would certainly be good speakers. But I also recommend Tower speakers in a similar price range to at least consider. I have no horse in this race, get Big-Box, get Towers, get Active Speakers, get Used Speakers, it is all the same to me. I'm simply laying out the range of possibilities ... near your budget.

    But, the Electronics have also been discussed in this thread. So, I laid out a sample system at or near you budget to illustrate possibilities in your price range, and conforming to what you said you needed from the system (no radio, no streaming). But again, no horse in this race, get any Amp/CD/Turntable you want. I'm not tell you what to buy, I'm illustrating the possibilities in your budget range. That's all. Which I assumed would be helpful in your quest for Speakers and Equipment.

    I kind of thought that is what you wanted us to do, give suggestions for similar speakers, and for alternative speakers to be considered. So ... silly me... that's what I did.

    Again I go back to -

    - Up to $6000 for speakers
    - Up to $2000 for Electronic Components

    If they all work (What all Works) with the same Speakers, why are we talking about them? Well, within a sense, All Speakers work with All Amps so why are we talking about any of this it at all? We are talking about it because we/you are trying to put together a system, partly based on the system you had, so I/we tried to come up with a similar system that fit the constraints of your budget.

    I think I said repeatedly that there are many other options for Speakers, Amps, CD Players, and Turntables. But ...again silly me... I though giving you a few sample systems might help you understand what was possible in your price range.


    Except I referenced 8 or more speakers. Once we make recommendations, we expect feedback from the Original Poster to guide is in additional recommendations. I like this, I don't like that, this one is nice but won't fit my potential space, and so on.

    I've given quite a range of speakers, many available to your locally. Plus some that would take some effort to seek out. At some point though, you have to go listen and see what suits you best.

    Focal
    are stunning speakers, very impressive, and that includes both the Aria 948 and the Electra 1038Be ... if you like that style of speaker.

    Forte-III are 'box' speakers, under budget, and have gotten nothing but very positive reviews. Would dearly love to have a pair myself. Certainly an impressive speaker at a very reasonable price. Also available in a Standard and Special Edition model.

    Cornwall-III
    have along history and I would expect nothing but good from them, and they come in two models, one below and one just above your budget. But with 15" drivers, they might push the limits of some rooms ... might.

    REVEL F208 (2x8") hit a VERY high standard, reference quality in their price class, and are stunning speakers ... if you like them.

    The JBL 4429 most closely resemble the speakers you lost and are about $5000/pr. A less common speakers, I have seen reviews on this new series that makes them sound like very impressive speakers. I would dearly love a pair of these too.

    But, do you want the closest to what you had, or are you willing to try something new? I don't care, make any choice you want.

    That right there represents EIGHT speakers, all within reach. Time to go listen.

    But there is nothing left for us to say until you say something yourself. What do you like? What don't you like? Do you want the same or similar, or are you open to a different style of speaker?

    I like this. I hate that. I might consider this other one. I might be able to come up with $X amount of money out of my own pocket. Etc....

    You want to talk about speakers, but you have given us nothing to go on.

    You have had a wide range of speaker recommendations. What do you think about them? If you can focus your needs, there are plenty of other speakers to consider. But with nothing to go on, I'm not sure what else can be said.

    Also, you need to get out and listen to some speakers. Those suggested, and alternative suggested by the store. Then you will have a foundation to base your preferences on.

    Keep in mind this is a UK/EU forum, I'm probably one of the few who keeps up with the USA market and with USA sellers. And given that you are in Chicago, I've focused on what is available from Music Direct (Chicago, IL). Though I'm pretty sure I included references to CRUTCHFIELD (Charlottesville, VA), and AudioAdvisor (Grand Rapids, MI). ABT in Glenview, IL is another source of quality equipment. B&H Photo (NY, NY) also has a nice selection.

    But you need to refine what you are looking for if you expect us to do more research and make more recommendations.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  30. lindsayt

    lindsayt
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2011
    Messages:
    323
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings:
    +54
    If you want the joint best turntable ever made, buy a Pioneer Exclusive P3 or P3a. In the long term they will go up in value. There's a reasonable chance you'll be able to buy one as well as all the other bits that would be right for you eg JB4311's or similar for your total system budget.

    This website is useful for finding out how much stuff cost when new and for certain basic specifications:
    オーディオの足跡 オーディオ機器を何でも紹介

    You'll probably also enjoy browsing this website:
    The Vintage Knob - Online vintage audio museum, forum and image bank
     

Share This Page

Loading...
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice