first time 5.1 to stereo need some advice

kopmjj

Active Member
Hi i have decided to go stereo route as i dont/cant enjoy music on my av receiver.
currently i have denon avr x2000 with q 7000 5.1 system. and before that i have denon 1910 with monitor audio vectors.

now to be honest for movies it was good, but for music i didnt enjoy at all and i feel i am missing something.

now i have some questions going to stereo amp. here are 2 i short listed.

Marantz PM6005
Yamaha A-S500

and for speakers i have decided on Tannoy V4 pair i have demoed them and sounded great. but demo was with yamaha receiver and not stereo amp.

i want to enjoy music but i will also like to enjoy movies. now i have tested 2.1 on my denon and i did enjoy movies without the surround sound, yes its not as room filling and the dialog is low sometimes in action scenes, and im not hearing the surrounds but to be honest the surrounds gave me a headache due to me sitting right against the back wall and the surrounds are mounted to the L/R and quite close, but i did enjoy it and i believe with better speakers and a stereo amp i will gain further enjoyment and quality. also my room is getting a refurbish and cant have wires running everywhere and want to keep it simple.

my another query is i noticed that the amps dont have subwoofer output. now with the tannoys and one of the above amp will i feel i am missing a subwoofer or lack of bass? or do stereo amp work different than av receivers? or should i be looking for an amp in 2.1? im confused here.

and last will i need a dac for either amps? i will be using rca cable only and not optical. my only to source for media is sky hd and med600x3d player.

so it will be 50% music and 50% movies.

also with the dts hd tracks on movies will i get uncompressed sound via stereo 2.0

any other advice/ideas is welcome thanks.
 

BlueWizard

Distinguished Member
The Yamaha AS500 with 85w/ch DOES have Subwoofer output. What it doesn't have is electronic bass management. It doesn't have the ability to control the crossover of BOTH the Front and the Sub speakers. Though it is still possible to integrate a Sub into the system, it is more difficult.

Myself, as is common knowledge in the forums, I would be to dump all my money into better Floorstanding speakers. In floorstanding you can be sure that the lowest bass to the highest highs are as smoothly integrated as possible.

The one advantage of the Marantz PM6005 (45w/ch) is that it has a built-in DAC, which makes connecting your TV to the Stereo very easy. Virtually all modern TVs have a Digital Optical Audio Out connection.

Myself I favor more power, but at the same time I went for decades with a 45w/ch amp, it drove some very big speakers very well. I still love that old amp.

If you have any concern about movies, then you will need some type of DAC. Either one built into the amp or an external DAC. A good exterenal DAC (Cambridge DACMagic 100) cost about £150. Though there are cheaper options available if necessary.

Myself, I solve the problem of connecting the TV to the Stereo by only buying TVs that have Analog (meaning not digital) AUDIO OUT. If you TV has that feature, then you don't need a DAC, you can use the one in the TV.

The Tannoy Mercury V4i are about £350/pr to £400/pr and have response down to 32hz at -6dB. I would start with them, and see if you really think you need a Subwoofer.

As to amps, as I said, I would go with more power. Having said that, the 45w/ch Manantz does have sufficient power and the advantage of a DAC with digital inpus.

Steve/bluewizard
 

kopmjj

Active Member
thanks for your reply great info.
i think i will buy the yamaha as500 and tannoy v4, and see if i will need a sub.
can you or anyone else tell me if you still your your amp without a sub and how does it sound?
also with the Marantz PM6005 i wont need to buy a dac right? so that will save me some money.
 

Silverblack

Well-known Member
Also consider the new harman kardon hk 3770 stereo receiver. It's 120 watts per channel has a built in 192 kHz/24 bit dac, to optical inputs plus coaxial, a load of analogue ins plus a sub out. It also has dlna, USB, it's also iOS compatible and has Bluetooth which is a plus.

I'm really thinking about this one myself as it ticks most of my boxes. I haven't seen this nowhere other than on harman kardons site and audio-t
 

kopmjj

Active Member
ok last question it may be tannoy v4's with yamaha as500 without a sub, but can someone give me an idea how the bass department will compare to my current set up, denon x2000 with q7000 set. the sub on that goes low 35hz and i see tannoy goes lower at 32hz, so does that mean on paper i will get similar bass as the QA 7000 sub? what about in the real world would these tannoys performance make me not need a sub?
i mean i was pretty happy with the QA sub but for music i thought it was weak maybe because of the satellites i was using?

or what other floor standers would you recommend? keep in mind i wont be upgrading to a sub no space anymore. so i need something from someones experience specailly people who only use 2.0 and not 2.1 what are your experiences without a sub?

the amp will be yamaha as500 because of the 85 watts i think i need more power. so will also need a matching floor standers.

also how do you guys find movies in 2.0? i am sacrificing surround for music in 2.0 but im just wondering will i lose significant sound quality in movies? i dont want to be one of those guys always lowering the volume in action scenes and turn up on quieter scenes, is there such method to balance this on integrated amps?
 
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BlueWizard

Distinguished Member
First, in comparing these two suggested speakers, you have to accept that you are comparing apples and oranges. The Q7000 have very small very limited front speakers and a subwoofer. When the whole system is in play for multi-channel music, that's fine, but it is weak for stereo music. Yes, you can work around it. You can still play music, but it is more limited.

There are several things that can effect the bass your perceive -

- How big are the bass drivers?

The Q7000 has a single 8" bass driver in the Sub with response down to a so-so 37hz. That might be OK for a modest floorstanding speakers, but is poor for a Sub.

The Mercury V4i have TWO 6" bass drivers EACH.

Making an approximation, an single 8" driver is 50.27 Sq. In.

A single 6" driver is 28.27 Sq. In. or 2x 6" drivers are 56.55 Sq. In. However, we have TWO boxes with TWO 6" bass driver each, for a total of 113.2 Sq In of surface area, and respond down to 32hz.

The main Q7000 speakers have TWO 3" (75mm) drivers per box, and again, the Tannoy have FOUR 6" drivers total.

- Bass Emphasis -

A speaker with modest bass depth can boost what bass it has to give the impression of greater bass. I have some old bookshelf speakers that responded down to a not very great 80hz, yet they gave the impression of good bass.

So, you can have the fake impression of a lot of bass, but most would prefer less emphasis and a smoother more accurate integration.

- Depth of Bass -

Too many assume that deeper bass means louder bass, not so, louder is louder and deeper is deeper, but one is not the other. Deeper bass gives you a wider more accurate reproduction of the spectrum. Instead of the illusion or impression of bass, it actually gives you the bass as it is in the recording.

- Personal Preference -

By this I mean, if you have a Sub, you can control that independently. If you want more bass, you can crank it up without effecting the levels of the sound from the front speakers. No offense to young people, but for those (mostly young) people who are more interested in the Bump and Thump, and less interested in the overall quality of sound, very likely they do want a Subwoofer.

- Speaker Placement -

Speaker close to a boundary, meaning pushed up against the wall or in the corner will boost the bass, but in my experience, it does so at the sacrifice of midrange quality and clarity. Generally, if a speaker has reasonably balanced bass, it only needs 10 inches to 14 inches behind the speaker. In my case, I simply move the speakers even with the front of my equipment cabinet, and I've got the 10" to 12" that my speakers are comfortable with.

But for those who care about something in the music above the bass, I think top quality bookshelf or Floorstanding give better overall sound.

I'm not saying over-hyped, over-amped bass is a bad thing. If that is what you want, fine. Please yourself.

I'm just saying if music means more than bass, then there are better ways to get it without a Sub. I can't give you a definitive answer, because there isn't one. There is one unique answer for every living person. To get what you want, you have to know what you want. Then you can try to find what will gives you that within your budget.

Though others disagree, I think you will get smoother better integrated results from a floorstanding speakers. Clearly I'm biased in that direction. However, there are many affordable Bookshelf speakers that will reach down to 40hz or a bit below, and for bookshelf, they will sound pretty impressive, even without a Sub. Typically a bookshelf will have a single bass/mid-bass driver. Floorstanding will have multiple bass/mid-bass drivers. But floorstanding are also physically larger.

Again, there is no one right answer. You have to look long and hard at what you really want, then determine what it will take to do that job.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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kopmjj

Active Member
so your saying basically the v4 has 4 6inch woofers vs 1 8 inch woofer on the q7000? and also the v4 goes lower than the q7000? if thats the case i dont think i will need a sub specially when the yamaha as500 has 85 watts this should bring out the best of the tannoys and should run it comfortably? i have just put up my denon x2000 and q7000 set for sale so hopefully when/if i sell i can buy the as500 and v4's.

but say if i was to push the budget a little higher what will be better than the v4's and make it worth its price? so far i have seen bx5 and this seems to be the closest thats matches the v4 on the low end.

also will the bx5 match tonally with the as500?
 

Don Dadda

Distinguished Member
Have not long removed the av from my setup and only use my stereo amp and i can't say i am missing it. However with vocals, i find that some are very subdued and would benefit from having a centre which i am looking to some how implement. It can also be beneficial if the amp has digital inputs as some devices only has a digital output, like my tv and wdtv live box.

Bass is plenty as my speakers are capable of reaching some low depths to the point that i rarely used the sub since the switch over to stereo only.

On paper the tannoys should do well there but proof is in the pudding.
 

kopmjj

Active Member
ok i have demoed Marantz PM6005 at super hi fi with several speakers tannoy dct6, dali zenzor 5 which is quite small for a floorstander and one of the b&w floorstanders.

now i was quite impressed how loud it goes, i didnt turn up the volume past 12 o clock just incase the speakers will blow and i will end up buying a damaged speaker, but i also overheard another customer saying his one turns off after going past 2 o clock volume, the guy in the shop said its something to do with fail safe or some safety issue it has built in, so your speakers dont blow.

hence im thinking this maybe good amp but maybe a little under powered to run good floorstanders?

i love the look of this so im almost convinced to buy this as this maybe the best within my budget.


also although i have demoed the floorstanders i still cant make up my mind, as the demo room was quite big and i didnt get the feel of how much bass they have, i know when i bring them home to a smaller room i will feel the bass but still confused there.

i wanted to demo tannoy v4 but they didnt have that, and ideally im looking for the best floorstander i can buy for £360 and deeo enough bass so i dont need to buy a sub.
 

Tone-uk

Active Member
I think you should keep the av receiver and plough all your efforts into finding the best speakers you can get. The receiver is more powerful than the Marantz anyway!
 

Tone-uk

Active Member
No, it doesn't work that way. The Denon, according to its specs, has power output of 95w (8ohms) and a max power consumption of 500w. The Marantz is rated 45w @ 8 ohm.

However, the Marantz is rated at 4 ohm whereas it appears the Denon is not. This means the Marantz is probably a more sensible choice if the speaker is difficult to drive (ie 4 ohm speakers with low sensitivity). Look for 8 ohm speakers (like the tannoys) and 6 ohms will be fine too.

In all honesty, 45w is enough and the 95w is more than enough.

The Yamaha A-S500 is rated at 85w @ 8ohm and 120w @ 4ohm. Again, no real difference to see here!
 

kopmjj

Active Member
ok which combo would you recommend? those are my two choices tannoy goes deeper but 2050i sounds better?

Marantz PM6005 - Q Acoustics 2050i
or
Marantz PM6005 - Tannoy v4i ?
 

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