First impressions with Kinza's Ultra

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by Badger0-0, Apr 28, 2007.

  1. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
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    I got it Wednesday :)
    Compared to the previous PB10, it's definitely quicker, which confirms my first thought that the PB10 is somewhat flabby.
    The initial SPL measurements surprised me.
    The PB10 showed a massive peak in the 50ish region, but the Ultra doesn't.
    Likewise at about 30ish.
    The Ultra's decidedly flat, in comparison.
    Actually, truth be told, the Ultra sounded decidedly uninspiring :confused:
    I guess I must have done a half reasonable job with the PB10 :)

    A couple of total(ish) guesses with the BFD and it's immediately much better.
    I haven't had any time to do any proper tweaking yet, but have no doubt it will be the mutt's nuts when it's sorted.
    It's definitely more refined :thumbsup:

    All of this is just in my room obviously.
     
  2. Digger

    Digger
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    boohoo! :devil:
     
  3. Knyght_byte

    Knyght_byte
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    so the more expensive sub sounds uninspiring..... :confused:

    glad i was only able to buy the PB12+......
     
  4. Smurfin

    Smurfin
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    Badger, which ultra did you buy? Is it the PCU? Funny you mention the PB10 sounding flabby....Rags had one briefly when everyone was raving about it being close to a £1000 sub but he wasn't overly impressed. The Ultra driver, however is superb! You may initially be a little underwhelmed but live with it a bit more, and I think you'll discover many many grin-inducing moments :)

    Which tuning point have you got it set to?
     
  5. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
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    :D
    Never mind, I'm sure you'll be taking the mick when you get the 13" :thumbsup:
     
  6. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
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    Only because of my room and the fact it's not set up the way I like it yet :smashin:
     
  7. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
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    Yep, it's the PC mate :thumbsup:
    Don't get me wrong, it's not bad from the off, just not a patch on the PB10 when setup, IMO.
    It's well deeper though :thumbsup:
    Some lovely vibes coming into the bath, last night, even though I couldn't hear the music playing downstairs :)
    It's set to 20hz, ATM.
    I'll be playing with that when I get chance, but first I want to sort it at this frequency.
    I'm hoping to get a chance to BFD it properly this afternoon, I'm leaving the inbuilt EQ out of the equation.
    As for the PB10, I remember discussing it with IanJ about it being flabby compared to the MS309. To be fair, it's all down to my room causing the 50hz to be about 20 dB up :eek:
    Well, at least I thought it was. As I say, I expected the Ultra to be similar, if not worse, and it surprised me somewhat. It's still high, but not as bad.
    I'll post some figures later.
     
  8. Member 96948

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    If Angel Eyes PB/Ultra was anything to go by, the tuning option made a big difference to it's in room response, the 16Hz tuning offering the smoothest response, regardless of extension. Just a suggestion, but I'd play with the bungs sooner rather than later.

    Russell
     
  9. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
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    Cheers Russ, it's definitely something I'm going to have a look at :smashin:

    I'm finding a real anomaly at the minute though.

    I found the reason for it sounding uninspiring.
    I have a massive hole in the curve at around 80-90 hz.
    I've applied some boost. I know they say you shouldn't, but I figure there's no way this baby is going to be running anywhere near full belt, so it won't hurt.

    It's sounding like a sub now, reasonably flat up to 70ish.


    I suspect there is a phase/cancellation issue, which I'll have to look at.
    I got the missus to tweak the phase for me and set it to what I thought was best. It worked fine for the PB10, but I don't think it has this time.

    I'm going to have a think about it.
    I think it's going to be a bit of a challenge, but that's ok, I love it :D
     
  10. Timbo21

    Timbo21
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    Generally, if your sub is next to your main speakers, like in between, I would say phase should be pretty much either at 0 or a straight flip at 180. That's as long as you've got the speaker distances right. It is actually worth changing the speaker delay distance by a foot either way in the amp to hear how it times. I would do this after deciding whether 0 or 180 degrees phase is best. Listen to a dance music bass drum, with plenty of LF, and see how it times.

    T.
     
  11. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
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    I'll bear it in mind, cheers.

    Here's the initial curve: :eek:
     

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  12. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
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    And here's where I'm at now:
    The XO on the amp is at 100hz and the graph is showing all speakers running.
     

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  13. Smurfin

    Smurfin
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    I'd definately recommend tuning it to 16hz :) Avoid 12hz though, it tends to get bad wind :D
     
  14. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
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    Smurfin, I forgot to say, I thought the PB10 was flabby when I first got it.
    When it was setup though, it was a different animal, much better.

    Just goes to show how important, proper setup is (I know you know that, I'm just trying to get Knyght_Byte to get some EQ :D ).
     
  15. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
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    :mad:
    Crosspost, I hate that.

    Well that's two of you who have told me, so I guess I'd better do it :smashin:
     
  16. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
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    Er. my last post doesn't read very well, does it?
    I'm not blaming you for crossposting, I'm sure you know what I mean :D
     
  17. Nimby

    Nimby
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    I really wouldn't have tried to modify the bottom end at all.

    Just whip the top off that 55Hz peak and see how it sounds.

    With that 55Hz peak gone your PCU has exactly the same +20dB ski jump house curve that I have from my 16-46. Awesome! :smashin:
     
  18. Member 96948

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    Even if it's sitting in the same place as the PB10, it'll interact with the room quite differently. The ports and driver are in totally different places on the sub. This means the sub is effectively sitting in a very different location to the last one.

    The 80Hz dip is matched by the one at 40Hz which obviously suggests a cancellation of some sort but it's not down to phase. You can't have a phase issue with only the sub running. It needs something to be out of phase with. Likewise, the distance settings are irrelevant until other speakers are introduced.

    Nope, I reckon your positioning (and possibly port tuning) are the issues that need sorting. It may also be interesting to see what happens if you move your chair a bit as this can have much the same effect.

    Russell
     
  19. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
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    :D
    I like a curve, but I don't know, it all sounded wrong, to me.
    Don't get me wrong, it was well low, but putting out more vibes than volume.
    If I could whack it up, I have no doubt that it could crack plaster, as Kinza told me it has in his house :D
    But unfortunately, I have to strike a balance and keep it fairly neighbour friendly :thumbsup:
    I've been tweaking all afternoon with my reference music, Joss Stone, Gorillas etc and it's coming on nicely, I think.

    Then again, I'm struggling to answer you, because I'm debating with myself which way to go.
    Looking at the first curve, do I cut the bottom end, or pull the top end up?
    These are big alterations and I know you should cut rather than boost.
    But cut by 20dB and then whack the sub up to compensate?
    I very much doubt that's a good idea, myself.
    I'd guess that seeing as it's the higher frequencies that are a problem, I should boost those and this won't put such a heavy demand on the sub's amp.

    Having said all that, I'm not convinced on the accuracy of my SPL meter.
    It's a Maplin job and specced to be pooh hot down to 31.5hz.
    What it does below that is anyones guess though.
    I think I'm going to get a Radio Shack meter, seeing as there's more info about it (which grieves me, seeing as my radio ham days tell me that RS is a pile).
    Mind you, it did a fine job with the PB10 :confused:
    Anyway, if I get the RS meter, I can get REW running sweeps instead of doing it myself, which is tedious to me and annoying to the missus :)
    Bloody good fun though, hearing the tones :rotfl:

    Sorry, I'm waffling :)
    I'm just listening to 10CC and thinking "I don't like tweaking, I love it" :)
    I have no doubt I will apply something like a 6-10dB curve :smashin:
    But if you look at the graph, it's nearer 30dB :eek:
    I guess I could run it without EQ for films, which would be interesting :rolleyes:
    And use the EQ for music :thumbsup:
     
  20. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
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    This makes sense to me :smashin:
    I was thinking about comments (even from manufacturers) that I've read saying that DF and FF doesn't matter.
    Having now experimented with both in my room, I think it's tosh.
    Interestingly, although SVS say the cylinder is a more rigid shape, which I don't doubt, having a bit of engineering knowledge, I've noticed that if I touch the Ultra, it resonates a hell of a lot more than the PB10 at similar volumes, which is all adding to my confusion.
    My suspended wooden floor doesn't help here, I think.

    Positioning is no doubt not helping, but I have no option here, it's staying where it is (halfway down the right hand wall) :(

    I suspect that lowering the tune may well make things worse, given that lowering gives less output at the top end, but I will definitely give it a go, probably next weekend.

    Oh, re the phase thing.
    That occurred to me too.
    It's all speakers running, as I can't see the point.
    I want to see what I'm hearing.
    But I'm thinking that the XO is not a brick wall, so it could possibly be having some effect ?
    Whatever, I have plenty to play with :thumbsup: which is what it's all about to me.
    My brain hurts.
    I hate thinking on a sunday :rotfl:
     
  21. Nimby

    Nimby
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    I don't know which meter you have but I wouldn't bet my life on it being accurate at subwoofer frequencies. It could easily be 20dB or more out at 20Hz!

    Relax, play it by ear and ignore the meter until you have something which can be calibrated with a simple file and REW. The RS meter may well be rubbish in real terms but it is highly repeatable and that can be compensated for against a calibrated microphone. My two RS meters were bought 12 years apart and both track each other very closely indeed on frequency response.

    I now prefer the Galaxy 140 SPL meter but it costs over £80 in the UK, I believe.
     
  22. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
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    Good advice and taken on board, cheers :smashin:

    When I get one, I'll post the differences, if any, too :thumbsup:
     
  23. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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    I can lend you my RS meter, let me know, and I'll post it to you.
    Dave
     
  24. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
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    Damm, that's a nice offer :thumbsup:
    I'm not sure I'd want you to post it though. It might get damaged, is what I'm thinking.
    Having said that, at least it would let people know if the Maplin job is any good or not :smashin:
    Hmm, I'll PM you tomorrow :smashin:
     
  25. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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    GPO will give up to £34 loss or damage with a certicate of posting, so no worries there.

    but I will want it back :)
     
  26. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
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    That's decent of you mate :thumbsup:
    No worries about getting it back either, my word's my bond :)

    You won't lose out, whatever :thumbsup:

    As I said, I'll PM you tomorrow :)
     

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