Finnish subwoofer shootout part 2 (Axiom EP-600, SVS PB10-ISD)

Ilkka R

Active Member
Results have been moved. (same applies to first round results which contained BK and SVS subwoofers)

Google "Finnish subwoofer tests"
 

bob1

Well-known Member
Well done Ilkka on yet another well put together test, the PB10 does as well as i would expect it too since i own one, other people will take more convincing of your findings.The frequency response of the PB10 is so close to what i get in room using the bfd (cuts only).
Hope to see more next year in the warmer weather, looks very chilly in the photos.
 

Ian J

Banned
Great stuff Ilkka although as an ex PB-10 owner I already had a good idea of what it could do. It's not always easy to visualise size but the PB-10 which is quite large by most people's standards is dwarfed by the Axiom which seems to the the size of an old grandfather clock.
 

Hungry Horace

Active Member
The day I sell my PB10, it's going to be with a bleeding heart. I sometimes ponder if I should buy another PB10 instead of getting a PB12 Plus. The thing is that I want real wood finish, and 16hz tune, and the PB10 can't provide that.

I always hoped that SVS would build some more 10" subs, like a PB10 Plus, or a PC10 Plus.

The PB10 is a product that it is very easy to fall in love with, and I sometimes think of keeping it for the rest of my life, and upgrade it myself. But I already have an old snowmobile that I've kept for sentimental reasons, so I have a rough idea about how time, and money consuming sentimental projects can become :)

And since I don't know to much about electronics, and I am totaly hopeless when it comes to working with wood, I think I'll go with the PB12 Plus :)
 

Nimby

Well-known Member
Ilkka

Congratulations on your latest test and the wide acceptance of the validity of your results across the world's forums.

I am slightly confused by your images of the drivers in your (test) post here. Does the middle driver belong to a PB10 despite appearing to have a yellow cone?

From your experience with the PB10-ISD and your own PC Ultra are you able to offer a theoretical comparison between two PB10s (co-located) against an SVS cylinder? Twin PB10s were a combination that was strongly suggested when the PB10 first came on the scene. Would you support this suggestion? Or would you still prefer a single cylinder?

I am thinking of the upgrade possibilities from a PCi now that cylinders (and the PC Ultra in particular) are no longer vailable in Europe. How would you rate a pair of PB10s against your Ultra for example? I hope this isn't an unfair question.

Thanks
Nimby
 

Pollywoggle

Active Member
Have you tested any Rel subwoofers?
Considering their high profile in the UK, (and high price) I would be interested to see how they stack up against the other subs In your recent tests.
Congratulations on your efforts :thumbsup:
 

Ilkka R

Active Member
Nimby said:
Ilkka

Congratulations on your latest test and the wide acceptance of the validity of your results across the world's forums.

I am slightly confused by your images of the drivers in your (test) post here. Does the middle driver belong to a PB10 despite appearing to have a yellow cone?
No, there is no picture of a PB10 driver. The middle one is from the EP-600 too. The yellow color is from the flash I used. The other driver is the TV-12 from the SVS's Ultra series.

From your experience with the PB10-ISD and your own PC Ultra are you able to offer a theoretical comparison between two PB10s (co-located) against an SVS cylinder? Twin PB10s were a combination that was strongly suggested when the PB10 first came on the scene. Would you support this suggestion? Or would you still prefer a single cylinder?
I own the PB12-Ultra, not the cylinder model.

Two PB10's would pretty much equal a single Ultra at all frequencies and even surpass it above 50 Hz. They would definitely kill a single PCi.

I am thinking of the upgrade possibilities from a PCi now that cylinders (and the PC Ultra in particular) are no longer vailable in Europe. How would you rate a pair of PB10s against your Ultra for example? I hope this isn't an unfair question.

Thanks
Nimby
Even though pair of PB10's would pretty much equal with Ultra in SPL, I would still take the Ultra. There is something in Ultras sound quality that can not be explained. The difference isn't night and day, but definitely so large that I would prefer it over two PB10's. But if you are coming from the PCi the question is much more difficult. I think I'd get the dual PB10's. Then there is of course the PB12-Plus... :)

But I'll promise to do some more listening between the Ultra and the PB10. Maybe some comparison graphs using different movie scenes (SPL capabilities).
 

Ilkka R

Active Member
Pollywoggle said:
Have you tested any Rel subwoofers?
Considering their high profile in the UK, (and high price) I would be interested to see how they stack up against the other subs In your recent tests.
Congratulations on your efforts :thumbsup:
No I haven't done any REL yet, but I'm sure we'll get some when the spring shootout will take place. :)
 

Nimby

Well-known Member
Thanks Ilkka. I think I'd always choose an Ultra too. If I could find one.

It would be nice to see some comparisons between the Ultra box and the Ultra cylinder.

Has anyone made a direct comparison?

Regards
Nimby
 

Ilkka R

Active Member
Nimby said:
Thanks Ilkka. I think I'd always choose an Ultra too. If I could find one.

It would be nice to see some comparisons between the Ultra box and the Ultra cylinder.

Has anyone made a direct comparison?

Regards
Nimby
I haven't seen one yet. But there shouldn't be big differences. Maybe 1-2 dB here and there.
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
More good stuff, I was expecting more from the Axiom from what I had read but the SVS continues to do lovely stuff.
 

Dfour

Active Member
Makes me even happier about the PB10 I own. Even happier about it v's the Monolith :D
 

dAVefaulkner

Standard Member
Excellent stuff! I was looking forward to you doing the PB10, as I own one. Congratulations on doing another great set of tests and a very nice presentation of the results. Your school science teacher would be proud of you!
 
J

janFIN

Guest
Dfour said:
Makes me even happier about the PB10 I won. Even happier about it v's the Monolith :D
There was actually no winner here, just numbers.
How do you feel so happy about the PB10 vs. Monolith?
Afterall the Monolith is a subwoofer in the same pricerange and it has more max SPL at 10% THD and much better group delay. I would definitively go for the Monolith.

I attached a little chart (yes it has a misspelling in it... :rolleyes: )
It's made of Ilkka R's 10% THD numbers.

Here are the groupdelays by Ilkka R:


(Ilkka R, just PM me if you think these should be removed)
 

Attachments

Nimby

Well-known Member
I believe the accepted wisdom is that group delays of less than 100ms are undetectable. On paper the PB10 offers a flatter frequency response but lacks the flexibilty of connection and filter/crossover controls of the Monolith. They seem quite closely matched on max SPLs @ 10% distortion. It would probably come down to sound quality and taste. That the Monolith runs so strongly against the highly-rated SVS PB10-ISD while offering greater flexibility in use is a remarkable achievement at its modest price. I wonder if we can expect a real SVS-killer from BK in a larger size?

Nimby
 

Jeff

Well-known Member
Nimby said:
I believe the accepted wisdom is that group delays of less than 100ms are undetectable.
Who's accepted wisdom is that ???, 100ms is too high IMO, under 50ms is fine.
 
A

alek

Guest
I think the accepted wisdom is that the audibility of group delay is highly dependent on frequency (just a couple of ms can be audible at frequencies which the human ear is most sensitive to). The problem is that there seems to be nothing very exact to say about the issue at very low frequencies, except that the delay must be a lot more to be audible. But if I was a betting man I'd bet that no one could hear a difference of 60 ms at 15 Hz (30 vs. 90 ms, see the graphs above). And I would bet a lot of money on it, since (at least most) people cannot hear 15 Hz at all. I very much doubt that this kind of difference in group delay could be "felt" either :) .
 

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