Fighting for one's country.

Discussion in 'Politics & The Economy' started by Cliff, Jul 10, 2015.

  1. Cliff

    Cliff
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    6,859
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Kent Accra Rub Al Khali
    Ratings:
    +4,359
    It is the 75th anniversary of the Battle of Britain. Sky News are showing a program with some of the stories of those who are still alive recalling their experiences. They are all around 97. Brave men, but what is so apparent is that they had absolutely no hesitation in fighting for Britain. Even though the chances of being shot down were so high.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1516383/battle-of-britain-told-by-those-who-fought-it

    Which brings me to thinking that in today's world attitudes seem very different. I would hope that British people would still fight but we have certainly seen splits in the country. Members of our armed forces have been attacked, are careful about wearing the uniform in public and some of the protests during repatriations at Wootton Basset have been disgraceful.

    These days we see so many migrants.. Why? It seems no one wants to stay and fight for their country any more. Yes I know know civil wars are complicated but just look what happened with the Iraqi army. There was zero patriotism to stand their ground and fight against ISIS. They ran and left their arms. Country meant very little. Same with Syria. That is being fought by many foreigners, and so many Syrians have just left.

    Moving to Africa. The Nigerian armed forces were not interested in fighting Boko Haram. (the school girls are still missing) but the country is falling to Islamists. The government is paying foreign forces to battle against Boko Haram, but with bombings every day, the north will soon be lost. The peoples option just like Syria, Iraq and so many other countries is to leave and look for a new life in new country. No one seems to fight for the country anymore

    Maybe the patriotism seen in the Battle of Britain is something from a bygone age?
     
  2. EarthRod

    EarthRod
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    17,958
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +8,078
    ^^^ Yes, those days have long gone.

    The UK is now very disparate in culture, custom, language and tradition.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • List
  3. Sonic67

    Sonic67
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    47,797
    Products Owned:
    12
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Home
    Ratings:
    +27,721
  4. Squiffy

    Squiffy
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2002
    Messages:
    14,533
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Ashford, Kent
    Ratings:
    +7,533
    You can't compare then with now.

    In the Battle Of Britain, there was an existential threat to the UK. Our army had been defeated and had to retreat, and there was genuine fear about an invasion and being occupied.

    With that sort of threat, people unify against a common foe. They make sacrifices for their country and their family. They become more tribal and patriotic.
     
  5. Cliff

    Cliff
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    6,859
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Kent Accra Rub Al Khali
    Ratings:
    +4,359
    From that Telegraph article
    “It’s recognised that former servicemen and women have a great flexibility across a range of roles. They are particularly good at leadership, motivation and make exceptional project managers with the ability to scope a problem, identify what is needed and then make it happen,”

    I would certainly agree. The ex service people I have worked with have always had a good job responsibility and training.
     
  6. Cliff

    Cliff
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    6,859
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Kent Accra Rub Al Khali
    Ratings:
    +4,359
    I think the sense of patriotism was always there in those days- it didn't start with Dunkirk.. In the first WW young men were eager to sign up and we hadn't been attacked. It was a foreign war miles away.

    But look at the rest of the world today. Which country do you see defending itself with a sense of patriotism. Only a few in Asia.
     
  7. Sonic67

    Sonic67
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    47,797
    Products Owned:
    12
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Home
    Ratings:
    +27,721
    Thanks to the left, patriotism is a dirty word. Wave a flag or be proud to be English/British and at some point it will be equated with racism.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • List
  8. EarthRod

    EarthRod
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    17,958
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +8,078
    As far a the UK is concerned, the phrase 'My country, right or wrong' was scrapped after the Gulf war.

    I think the last war which could be considered patriotic was the Falklands.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • List
  9. pragmatic

    pragmatic
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2004
    Messages:
    12,156
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,647
    Nationalism is considered bad, another new world order, globalisation con that has helped facilitate mass migration to get cheap labour.

    In all seriousness, people don't feel anchored to anything anymore and can lead to nihilism or joining a cause no matter what, including one that requires you to blow yourself up with as many inoccent people as possible.
    Migrants that come to the UK in more recent times seems to want to bring their lives wholesale while benefiting from the structures of the UK, rather than integrating into them and becoming British, but it's made even harder when indigenous people feel no connection/responsibility to the country.

    We will see the lack patriotism and nationalism being exploited and as damaging as too much of it, and abused by the same sort of arseholes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
  10. gibbsy

    gibbsy
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 17, 2007
    Messages:
    14,615
    Products Owned:
    3
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Cwm Cynon, De Cymru
    Ratings:
    +8,426
    Sorry, but this seems to be an English problem, people have let the Cross of St George be taken over by idiots and thugs. Wave the flag and reclaim it, stop the clowns making the vast majority of Englishmen ashamed of doing so. The Welsh are proud to display Y Ddraig Goch, or the Union flag even though Wales has no representation on it.

    As for the left making patriotism a dirty word the Welsh regiments still get the vast majority of recruits from the heartland of Labour dominated Wales and that's about as left as it gets.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  11. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Messages:
    7,631
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Oxford
    Ratings:
    +2,853
    The far right have done that to patriotism, not the left. It's time we asserted our national identity in a positive way.

    It's the global super elite who benefit from globalisation. Nationalism can be a dangerous thing indeed i.e. 20th century history. We are far too tribal as a species, if we stopped fighting amongst ourselves and worked together we could probably resolve a lot of the world's problems quickly. We are going to have to spread out into space as the Earth has finite resources.

    That's because Politicians have lost control of the narrative thanks to the internet. People have been free to question things and use their own free will to make decisions. Terrorists have always been nihilists. Islamic extremism is a death cult, nothing more and nothing less. The same as extremist Christian terrorists is.

    That's the fault of political correctness. I do know immigrants from the Cezch Republic and tbh they work hard and fit in as much as they can. It's rather lazy to lump all immigrants into the same basket. It's lazy thinking and quite frankly dangerous considering what happens when you stereotype one particular group as it leads to morals be cast aside and an orgy of violence taking place in the worst cases. Rwanda springs to mind as does the Holocaust.

    We come together when threatened, otherwise we get on with life. As far as immigration goes ? It will continue to ramp up due to a variety of factors. Not least as a direct consequence of the climate changing. We will see wars over fresh water supplies in some parts of the world. Egypt will use military force to defend the Nile.
     
  12. Cliff

    Cliff
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    6,859
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Kent Accra Rub Al Khali
    Ratings:
    +4,359
    The far right have used the flag tainting it- but it's the Left that say normal folks can't use the flag in a patriotic way.

    There is a difference between the old left (the working class / miners etc) and the new Champagne PC left. They are the ones that would cry racist if I put a Union Jack in my garden.
     
  13. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Messages:
    7,631
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Oxford
    Ratings:
    +2,853
    It's the political class as a whole who've done that. Cameron has used nationalism to win votes, but he's not gone as far as to wave the England flag around.

    They are a social class who don't reflect the majority made up of people who've gone to university and have connections the rest of us do not have (political and media classes). Same as the right wing Tories, who want to dismantle the progress made in the 20th century in terms of the NHS and the Welfare state (it can be reformed properly, but not with IDS at the helm).

    We will probably hit a crunch point when the political and media classes are swept aside. Most likely over the decades long silence over child abuse if the truth is ever revealed.
     
  14. Enki

    Enki
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    3,602
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    IP address init.
    Ratings:
    +1,200
    Absolutely bygone age for me.

    What is one supposed to be patriotic about:confused:. I don't go for all this St George was lost by the left, it disappeared with increasing globalisation. However, I celebrate St Georges day, if some Davos thinks I'm rascist that's there problem , if people are to ashamed to take ownership of St George, that's their wet liberal look out, though I would not have a fight over it.

    Anyway Prince Phillip today, despite his linerage, he is one excellent grumpy grandad, top Englishman.:thumbsup:
     
  15. Trollslayer

    Trollslayer
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Messages:
    27,305
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Poole
    Ratings:
    +11,915
    Read Spike Milligan's books about his experience during the war, that gives you a pretty good idea of the average soldier's time in war.
     
  16. Enki

    Enki
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    3,602
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    IP address init.
    Ratings:
    +1,200
    I'm allergic to bullets and shrapnel, don't much like, what's war and soldiering is about, more on the causes.
     
  17. gibbsy

    gibbsy
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 17, 2007
    Messages:
    14,615
    Products Owned:
    3
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Cwm Cynon, De Cymru
    Ratings:
    +8,426
    It was easy to see the heroes from WWII (and WWI) when I was a kid. Some bore the physical scars of conflict, like Idris the blindman who was gassed in the trenches, or the young man with terrible burns, shot down in his Hurricane in the later stages of the Battle of Britain. Then you had the men who had what is now called PTSD. My mate Gary's father was a Chindit and had terrible nightmares, a desperately unhappy man.

    Others we knew about went through the war and returned home safely, my father, who was in the RAF and served in North Africa, Malta and the Italian campaign and my uncle who was in the Royal Navy and served in the Atlantic. Another mate, Billy, his father was on HMS King George V when it helped sink the Bismark. The landlord of the nearest pub won the DFC as a rear gunner on Lancasters.

    All these men volunteered from the valley early in the war. Such was the numbers volunteering that mining was made a protected occupation and the Bevan Boys got conscripted to work in the mines to make up the shortfall.

    Billy's father was a professional sailor with the RN long before the outbreak of war. My cousin was also a professional soldier, joining the Welsh Guards in 1937. He came through Dunkirk and was transferred to the 3rd Batt Welsh Guards when it was formed in October 1941. In 1943 he landed in Algeria and fought Rommel's Afrika Corp. Early 1944 saw the battalion join the 8th Army in Italy and in March 1945 attacked the German defences on the River Po where he won the Military Medal. It was the last action of the war for the 3rd Batt.

    Ask my cousin what he did in the Guards and he would talk of the ceremonial duties outside Buck House. Or the beauty of Rome. Ask him how he won the MM and you were met by a stoney silence. Getting him legless one night we pressed again only to be told that he had killed other men which was nothing to be proud of as far as he was concerned.

    Now we have young men coming back from recent conflicts, all of them professional members of the armed forces. Look at them with the same reverence as we did with the men from the two world wars, they deserve nothing less.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  18. Rasczak

    Rasczak
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    23,179
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Warwick
    Ratings:
    +3,781
    With regard's the theme of Cliff's original post on whether people would sign-up to fight for Britain today, I think Alan makes a good point about the threat in WWII vice the operations we undertake now.

    But even in WWII there were those that didn't wish to serve and evaded it through one route or another - then, as now then, some would rise to call whilst others wouldn't. I would humbly suggest the situation is as it has always been - if the conflict in question strikes a cord with the wider public (probably through the sheer nature of it and effective promotion of the concept by establishment institutions) and social considerations do not reduce interest, people will enlist.

    I disagree with the comments made about flags earlier in the thread however. I think waving a flag is the most superficial and irrelevant form of "patriotism". I can see why it has largely been adopted by right-wing and nationalist groups - and as far as I'm concerned they can keep it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
  19. Trollslayer

    Trollslayer
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Messages:
    27,305
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Poole
    Ratings:
    +11,915
    The way an individual will feel during a war that threatens their home will be very different to peacetime.
     
  20. IronGiant

    IronGiant
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    67,603
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    .
    Ratings:
    +48,413
    I do feel that previous generations were more likely to do as they were told, whereas we have been brought up to question everything.
    I can't exactly see "Your Queen and Country need You" from #Lizzymonarch on FB getting the same response as Kitchener's posters did a century ago.
     
  21. Enki

    Enki
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    3,602
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    IP address init.
    Ratings:
    +1,200
    And think freely. It's a wonderful age we live in, when it comes to information.
     
  22. Member 55145

    Member 55145
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    12,082
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,484
    Interesting viewpoint.
    I always looked up to them not only for fighting for K&C, but fighting for everybodies freedom.

    The UK unlike the USA didn't wait until it was attacked, it fought for the freedom of everyone.

    I think the USA tried to learn from that but ended up getting involved in wars where it wasn't wanted.

    In the interest of openness, I agreed with the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.
     
  23. Enki

    Enki
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    3,602
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    IP address init.
    Ratings:
    +1,200
    Do you know what, despite evilness of that regime, with the tools i have now to form open opinion, I'm pretty sure I would have objected, on the grounds, that we rather openly shoveld our products and money into a known growing evil problem of the time. No chance of me contributing under such circumstances.
     
  24. Member 55145

    Member 55145
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    12,082
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,484
    I'm confused, are you saying we shouldn't have fought the Nazi?
     
  25. Enki

    Enki
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    3,602
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    IP address init.
    Ratings:
    +1,200
    I would have objected on the grounds that my fellow countrymen profited in the creatation of this evil regime and then request my life to sort it out. No chance, would I have gone.
     
  26. IronGiant

    IronGiant
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    67,603
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    .
    Ratings:
    +48,413
    So it's it's our fault that The Nazi Party came into being.

    OKAY....
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • List
  27. Sonic67

    Sonic67
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    47,797
    Products Owned:
    12
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Home
    Ratings:
    +27,721
    What did we supply Nazi Germany with?
     
  28. Enki

    Enki
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    3,602
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    IP address init.
    Ratings:
    +1,200
    . Not literally all our fault, not sure where I suggest this...

    Certainly many British companies and banks made huge amounts of cash, knowing its fascist identity. On this information I would not offer my life. If on the other hand we had been stauch critics and refused to do any business, I feel this would be agreeable to offer my life, because of matching principles.
     
  29. Sonic67

    Sonic67
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    47,797
    Products Owned:
    12
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Home
    Ratings:
    +27,721
    So because private companies and banks did something you wouldn't support a government going to war with a regime that caused the holocaust?
     
  30. Member 55145

    Member 55145
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    12,082
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,484
    Just like the debt crisis is everyone's fault because certain people lend money and others couldn't afford to pay it back?

    Something is a bit off with that analogy me thinks
     

Share This Page

Loading...