Fallon says we should salute the "wealth creators"

Discussion in 'Politics & The Economy' started by la gran siete, Sep 10, 2012.

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  1. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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  2. sidicks

    sidicks
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    Which part of "risk their own money to create jobs" are you failing to understand?
    :confused:
     
  3. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    i used the term wealth creators not risk takers .What part of that do you fail to understand? i dont regard loaning money but demanding high returns as a particularly high risk, besides risk takes ,in my view ,risk their lives to save others.In other words its an act of altruism which makes no demand of a high return:lesson:
     
  4. karkus30

    karkus30
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    Create jobs? What on Earth is he on about ? People decide to go into business for many different reasons, creating jobs is rarely amongst the top 5. Whats more the worker is also a businessman and not a shadowy number, or a machine, they are flesh and blood rational, thinking human beings that sell their time to other men for a share of the production.

    I don't know what he means by deregulation ? It usually means fiddling about with pointless crap with very little effect except to create more work and cost for everyone involved. Let's have de-governmentisation.

    The word 'plan' makes me grow cold.
     
  5. karkus30

    karkus30
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    Wow, that's weird. You immediately thought it meant banks. Actually there isn't any risk as it stands except in a regulatory sense. However it's high risk if you have no protection..

    There are no acts of altruism. It's not possible. People who risk their lives are not altruistic. Take it from me, I'm into high risk activities and would have happily taken a job which had the same risks, I did apply to the Fire service but it was very much a closed shop at the time, I was also part of cave and mountain rescue which was unpaid voluntary work ( I didn't do it for altruism, I did it because I liked the buzz ). It's just a different reward that's all.
     
  6. overkill

    overkill
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    Fallons just another Right Wing imbecile drafted in to promote the govts bogus 'war on red tape'.

    The govt has today announced it's cutting 3,000 H&S regulations which, surprise, has been 'welcomed' by business'.

    Interesting that Cable has done this bearing if mind the report commissioned by no less than the PM himself said:

    "there is no need to cut any health and safety regulation and to do so carries the risk that peoples health and safety in the workplace will be endangered by doing so. There has been a cut back of 50% of H&S regulation since 1974, and in our view the current legislation is barely adequate'. (source CIPD)


    Yet DC carried on with his anti red tape campaign and Cable now puts cuts to H&S into force.

    This govt is a bloody disgrace.

    Period.
     
  7. karkus30

    karkus30
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    Your back, nice to see you again overkill. :)
     
  8. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    I like his choice of language.Right wing imbecile.I would add the word oleaginous
     
  9. karkus30

    karkus30
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    Greasy you mean ? No big words I can only cope with simple things.
     
  10. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    you do have some odd ideas :laugh:Of course there are cases of altruism , even some animal species exhibit it ,sacrficing themselves for the sake of others in their group.At the simplest level donating money to causes such as live aid or comic aid or when there is some major disaster,on a higher level there was some notable impresarios in the 19th century who indulged in acts of great altruism for the sake of their employees providing them decent living conditions, schools ,hospitals etc.They were called philanthropists.
    Any time someone his own own life trying to save anothers ,is an act of altruism.It maybe in short supply these days but it does surface now and again
     
  11. EarthRod

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    Good post. You managed to bring in philanthropy as well!

    Altruism can entail a feeling of self-satisfaction or a sense of well-being when someone risks their life. Job well done etc.

    I think karkus30 meant there are no acts of true altruism.
     
  12. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    define true and false altruism then? Obviously "self" is always involved in everything we do, as in doing good by others , because we feel better about ourselves doing it.Getting involved in an accident trying to save a life is purely instinctive and involves empathy as in wanting to relieve someones else pain because we "feel" itie we are in their heads .I dont think feeling the buzz of excitement really comes into it, although I accept it might with those working in the emergency services being as they do it regularly.
    Its probable the great philanthropists acted the way they did becauyse they wanted others to think well of them including their staff, but there is also the element of empathy as in "would i expect anyone to work in conditions i would not want myself?" and "would my staff be more loyal and work better for me if i provide schools healthcare and decent living conditions for them?" (enlightened self interest)
     
  13. karkus30

    karkus30
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    Co operative working isn't true altruism. Empathy is always about the Ego even when it is incredibly subtle. We see another in pain and it brings a sense of un ease which causes action. There are many in pain but we don't react to them all otherwise we would be unable to function. One of the other posters touched on our understanding of good and bad, right and wrong, good and evil. The sense of self can get in the way of viewing events with dispassion while performing action from stillness. Then you see that altruism is a product of ego. Action in stillness is self less. This is a rare thing, to the uninitiated it appears as compassion and sacrifice but it is no more felt like that in any sense and is closer to making a cup of tea.

    We are way of course now. I don't expect you to agree or understand what I'm saying so its not necessary to refute it otherwise I'm conscious that we will end up straying a long long way from politics and the economy and I'm sure it's not the place to do it.
     
  14. EarthRod

    EarthRod
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    I've never heard of false altruism. Where did you get that from?

    :confused:
     
  15. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    you said there were no acts of true altruism so by that i assumed you meant only false altruism existed
     
  16. EarthRod

    EarthRod
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    LGS strikes again.

    ;)
     
  17. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    i said the self was always involved in all our actions , there is no such thing as selflessness but there is difference between being completely selfish as one one would apply to a sociopath, and altruistic .They are at opposite ends.Most of us lie somewhere in between.
    Altruism cam be described as the principle or practice for the welfare of others although others may vary among cultures. At its most poignant it usually involves sacrificing something for someone.Randists detest it because to them it implies they must subjugate the self in some moral duty towards others.I dont believe such duty and altruism have anything in common.
     
  18. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    naturallement !
     
  19. karkus30

    karkus30
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    As I said, no need for a reply, I'm happy to accept whatever you think as true.

    I'm not sure what the point of Randist was ? I think you must have been making one, but as its not someone I have studied it's difficult to discuss. I know she was ultimately at odds with Austrian economic theory and veered into areas which are probably of great interest personally. I shall have to read her two novels in order to get that knowledge first hand so might take a while as I have around 6 books on the go at this point, including one I'm writing.
     
  20. karkus30

    karkus30
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    theory of natural rights which his books uphold.” After a bitter personal break, however, Rand told a correspondent that she was “profoundly opposed to today’s so-called libertarian movement and to the theories of Dr. Murray Rothbard”; she saw Rothbard and the libertarians as her “avowed enemies” (1995a, 664). For his part, Rothbard (1987) came to regard the movement around Rand as a “cult.”

    I don't know what to make of Rand, but this quote is interesting. Something hints at a person with either bi polar or multiple personalities. It might be why she is difficult to pin down. At one point Mises and Rothbard seemed to be captivated with her and them with her then a big split from both sides. Neither Mises or Rothbard would have anything to do with her.

    The problem here I think is that of interpretation of work. Often it's easy to see the similarities and twist the differences or ignore them completely. We see this in religion very often. It should always be accepted that these works are not laws or rules, they are musings and as such, integrating them into a working economy can only be achieved by a certain degree of gentle experimentation and feedback. Even net results are difficult. What if 90% of the population became wealthy, while 10% lived in abject poverty. If that figure advanced to 99.999% would that still be unacceptable. If everybody had a more or less equal, but quite low living standard and the economy was in decline multilaterally would that be acceptable ?
     
  21. logiciel

    logiciel
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    I wish posters - you for example - would stop using idiotic words such as the C one that you used in another thread.
     
  22. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    i thought swear words were automatically filtered out?:confused:
     
  23. EarthRod

    EarthRod
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    They are - he's on about the word 'cretin' you used in another thread.

    To me the C word is **** or ****.

    Cretin is, I suppose, an idiotic word in definition. Maybe I should say: the C word is an I word!


    ... We could make a game of this? :D
     
  24. MikeTV

    MikeTV
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    What's your actual objection to that word? Is it because it is derived from a rare medical condition? - because I don't think many people who use the term are even aware of that. Or is it because you don't like people describing politicians as fools? Which I would of thought was pretty fair game in a politics forum.
     
  25. MikeTV

    MikeTV
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    And the word "idiotic", which you used, and was once used to describe people with mental disabilities. So how is this any different from using the word "cretin"? At least he was using the term to make a political point, rather then directing it at another forum member, which is an all too common occurrence.
     
  26. overkill

    overkill
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    It is indeed, and usually goes unpunished - according to your political beliefs. Leftie, expect a moderator to intervene, Right wing, say what you like, even stalk other posters, and nothing will be done.

    Added to my comment above:-

    "Richard Jones, head of policy and public affairs at the Institution of Occupational Safety and Health (IOSH), said: “These sorts of announcements have been made before and it is very disappointing that everyone immediately starts pointing the finger at health and safety, which is always seen as an easy target. “The talk of reducing around 3,000 regulations and at the same time focusing on health and safety is misleading. There are only 200 health and safety regulations in total, so any reduction in these will be a tiny percentage of the 3,000 and so far only 21 have been considered.”

    Jones said two recent government reviews, by Lord Young and Professor Ragnar Löfstedt, and the Red Tape Challenge, all found the health and safety system in this country to be broadly ‘fit for purpose’. “The problem is with a misunderstanding of what the real requirements are – so we need better education on sensible management of risk,” Jones said. “There is an exaggerated fear of being sued in this country, fed by aggressive marketing, which the Government needs to tackle.”

    John McClean GMB national health and safety officer at trader union GMB, said: “This is nothing new and is in effect a regurgitation of previous statements. This is just propaganda to appease the right wing from a new minister – none of which is new or unfortunately surprising.

    “Current laws in this area were not enforced very strongly anyway. The burdens will now fall on individuals and society in suffering and cost. Most small and medium firms would not be able to identify the legislation that states they should carry out risk assessments,” McClean added. (source: HR magazine)

    I notice that the govt also deliberately misleads on this issue on it's 'Red Tape' website. Lofsedt is claimed to have been behind the govt push for changes to the law, when in fact he has stated (repeatedly) there is no case for change.
     
  27. IronGiant

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    You really do hate me don't you :( :thumbsdow
     
  28. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    ??:confused:
     
  29. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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    not you, overkill :) he seems to have the knives out with the personal attacks at me today
     
  30. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    maybe you should pm and find out what the problem is
     
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